So why aren't passports proof of ownership?

[happyclappy]

So what about car V5? This does not prove ownership either. And do we own the V5?

 

[Maesfen]

Re horse passports being proof of ownership, what would you do if the horse went out on loan? Passport has to go with horse, and there`s nothing to stop unscrupulous people changing the passport into their names and saying the horse is theirs.

That's simple. You inform the passport people and your insurance company that the horse is out on loan to ??? but that you are still the owner and as such, they are not to accept any changes unless they either come from you in writing with proof of ownership/addresses etc or from your next of kin if you've popped your clogs. They will both note it on the records for that horse; my insurance company even notes on the policy the horse is loaned out to ??? and that they have the right and my permission to apply for vet cover if I'm unavailable so that the horse will not be in any danger from time delays. You must obviously remember to change the details if the loan finishes though!

 

[orionstar]

A V5 is issued once to the owner of car. That car is registered with the DVLA with unique vin plate numbers, therefore that V5 can only pertain to that car. I could steal your horse next week, passport it with a passport agency, and that agency has no idea whether the horse belongs to me, is called dora or neddy, and doesnt check with any other passport agency or microchipping agency that this horse may be called something else or be stolen. This government scrapped the central registration scheme that had been brought in to combat this, i.e you would only be able to apply for a passport though an agency that checked the microchipping details with a central database, the reason why compulsory microchipping was brought in, so it's as much use as a chocolate fireguard when it comes to proof of ownership!

 

[popsdosh]

A V5 is issued once to the owner of car. That car is registered with the DVLA with unique vin plate numbers, therefore that V5 can only pertain to that car. I could steal your horse next week, passport it with a passport agency, and that agency has no idea whether the horse belongs to me, is called dora or neddy, and doesnt check with any other passport agency or microchipping agency that this horse may be called something else or be stolen. This government scrapped the central registration scheme that had been brought in to combat this, i.e you would only be able to apply for a passport though an agency that checked the microchipping details with a central database, the reason why compulsory microchipping was brought in, so it's as much use as a chocolate fireguard when it comes to proof of ownership!

Micro chipping is controlled now in that a vet should not put another chip in when it already has one . They should still be traceable and a PIO is not allowed to issue another passport to a horse that already has a chip

 

[popsdosh]

So what about car V5? This does not prove ownership either. And do we own the V5?

A V5 is not proof of ownership and never will be due to the fact most cars are bought on finance so belong to the finance company until paid off,even though they registered to the keeper.

 

[Goldenstar]

Proof of payment is proof of ownership, there's no way we are going to get different laws for ownership of horses to other 'things '.

 

[sywell]

The passport is a document of the horse to prevent unapproved drugs getting into the human food chain and for disease control and who owns the horse is irrelevent. this arises because in the rest of the EU the horses is livestock and it is only in the UK they are pets or please animals. The place where horses are kept is the important factor in disease control and that is why the holding where horses are kept is the important issue not the owner. We have owners with horses in England from all over the world Australia,USA, Middle East as they are on secondment so they are not incharge of the horse. The keeper is responsible not the owner. The reason the passport is the property of the issuer is to have more control over who makes entries in the document only people approved under 504/2008 can legally make enteries anyone else it would be fraud. DEFRA should do Forums and answere these questions.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

I think the chip should be the proof of ownership.
This means it would be down to seller to change the chip registration when horse sold (as is current with most PIO's for passports)

No chip = no owner, or chip moved/dislodged on horse = then needs to be backed up by passport/deed of sale.

Easier for non-horse people to check on, like the police etc.

Now.... I just need to get chips to be more conforming so 8 different readers or more are not required....

 

[Goldenstar]

I think the chip should be the proof of ownership.
This means it would be down to seller to change the chip registration when horse sold (as is current with most PIO's for passports)

No chip = no owner, or chip moved/dislodged on horse = then needs to be backed up by passport/deed of sale.

Easier for non-horse people to check on, like the police etc.

Now.... I just need to get chips to be more conforming so 8 different readers or more are not required....

As an buyer would you part with money before the details where changed ... No you would be a fool
If you where the seller would change the chip before payment was received ....no you would be a fool .
Impasse how would you handle that .

 

[sywell]

I think the chip should be the proof of ownership.
This means it would be down to seller to change the chip registration when horse sold (as is current with most PIO's for passports)

No chip = no owner, or chip moved/dislodged on horse = then needs to be backed up by passport/deed of sale.

Easier for non-horse people to check on, like the police etc.

Now.... I just need to get chips to be more conforming so 8 different readers or more are not required....

I think you only need one reader the ISO standards are laid down in the regs. The problem is in about 2003 we asked DEFRA to require all chips to start with the country code 826 but they said it was not possible which seems strange as every other country does 276 Germany 528 Netherlands. In other countries you go on a course to learn hopw to chip and once approved you can chip horses but in the UK the Vets decided only they should do it so instead of costing £10 it costs £50 to £70 . The EU commission asked DEFRA if a Vet has to do it why is it not entered in the passport with their details.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

In may this year i used 3 different readers from 2 vets and local rspca inspector and none picked up the chip, finally using a 4th one from a different rspca inspector, who carries 2 in her van and bingo tge mystery was solved. Chip there but not registered in uk.

GS, like many others i really can't think

 

[popsdosh]

I think you only need one reader the ISO standards are laid down in the regs. The problem is in about 2003 we asked DEFRA to require all chips to start with the country code 826 but they said it was not possible which seems strange as every other country does 276 Germany 528 Netherlands. In other countries you go on a course to learn hopw to chip and once approved you can chip horses but in the UK the Vets decided only they should do it so instead of costing £10 it costs £50 to £70 . The EU commission asked DEFRA if a Vet has to do it why is it not entered in the passport with their details.

You have to laugh at that one.They never insisted that they should be the only ones doing dogs etc.

On the continent I believe some countries non vets also fill in markings charts as well as chip.

 

[spookypony]

The whole system seems unnecessarily chaotic, I agree! For my pony, I could go into my bank records and show transfers to the previous owner, but changing the ownership in his passport did not require the previous owner to sign off. For my mare, I have no bill of sale, but when I had the passport details changed, I had to send a signed form and the passport to the previous owner with an extra stamped envelope, and she had to sign the form and send the passport and form to the PIO to change. So the PIO had to have signatures from both people in order to change the ownership information. The latter system made a bit more sense to me.

 

[sywell]

You have to laugh at that one.They never insisted that they should be the only ones doing dogs etc.

On the continent I believe some countries non vets also fill in markings charts as well as chip.

It was only in the UK that Vets said they had to do it. The regulations says any approved person. £10 abroad but here £50 to £70