Soaking hay ... What a palaver ...

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Greylegs

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... And just how much good does it do? My boy has been a bit sore on his feet and vet is saying the dreaded "L" word!! He's on box rest for a week and I've been told to soak his hay. I keep him on livery at a yard quite close to home, and have a tub etc to use, but timings are proving a challenge. Just how long does it need to be soaked for and how long is too long? His morning net will have been sitting in mucky water overnight for up to 16 hours by the time he gets it. Alternative is soaking for 2-3 hours. Everything I've read is confusing me. Some literature says 2-3 hours is enough to make a meaningful reduction in sugar levels, but other stuff says it needs at least 12 hours. Can I soak it during the day, take it out to drain and then feed it the following morning? Any thoughts or advice would be welcome. Thanks.
 
Two to three hours is fine, buy a huge trug from Jewson for each haynet.I think it will be ok left drained overnight.
You need to rinse off after the soak for best results.
Having removed minerals buy hoof related minerals, forageplus or progressive earth. Add 25gms of salt per day.
No molasses or afalfa, obviously there is molasses in pony nuts and licks and most chaffs [molassesss=moglo]
So feed Fast Fibre or quick beet [ie non molassed]
This is similar to feeding for barefoot, if the shoes are off they may be off for while [farrier will advise]
The laminitis [maybe low grade lamintis? LGL] is going to have to be managed, probably best to stable at least part of the day, while feeding ad lib soaked hay. Keep using the minerals, all year round.
Miscronised linseed is good for skin, hoof, and condition in winter , cn be fed from 25 gms to 250gms per day. [summer - winter]
 
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Do not be tempted to starve the horse, this is an old idea related to fat ponies and laminitis. If he needs to shift weight then discuss it with your vet.
The sugars in grass are maximum in spring, autumn, on lush grass, on frosted grass and in the forenoon.
 
You can soak it for sixteen hours, no problem. I soak for twenty four and drain and leave for up to another twenty four, but check it's not gone warm, and shake it loose if it has and feed when cold.
 
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Wintertime when temps are low, its advisable to soak for more than 4 hours, over night is fine, as long as you rinse and feed straight away. Summer time when temps are warmer, you can get away with soaking for 2/3 hours.
I soak mine overnight, rinse and feed , put another lot into soak in the morning, pull it out in the afternoon, rinse and feed. Its just finding a routine that suits, i am up to mine x2 a day so thta does make it easier.
As bonkers has said, check your feed too. Yes it is worth it if you want a sound horse :)
 
I've been using a wheelie bin for my soaking. It's easy then to thread net string through handle of bin, pull up out of water and tie. Leave to drain while you muck out. No mess and no getting wet or having it dripping all over. Then wheel bin to nearest draining area and tip out.

I've been soaking this way for the last 12 months or so twice a day. Simples.
 
I drilled a hole in the wheelie bin to allow water to drain out, you can buy wooden plugs from a yacht chandler.
But I found the trugs were quicker, and have more uses than a wheelie bin with a hole in it!
 
Thanks everyone. You lot are great .... :-)

My boy is a 15 year old highland who's been barefoot all his life and never had any issues before. He could do with shifting a bit of weight, but the vet has told me to cut his food intake to 6.5kgs per day max, that's including his hard feed as well as hay. Whilst she's not doubt basing this on his body weight, when I got 6.5kgs of food together in one place yesterday (2 small nets plus two small feeds of HiFi Light, unmolassed beet and a measure of lo cal balancer) it looked woefully inadequate. i'm reluctant to drop his intake so dramatically in one go, so am going to reduce gradually over a week or so and see how he goes. The vet has told me to take him off Happy Hoof (I thought that was OK!?) so I've substituted the HiFi Light.

I'll get into the soaking thing I'm sure. Just need to get into a routine. I'll look at hoof supplements as well.

Thanks again all. I'm prepared to anything I can to get this boy right, but it's all a bit new to me at the moment.
 
Hi Fi light still has molassess, low in sugar [their words] is relative at 7%
Ingredients: Cereal straw, alfalfa, molasses, mould inhibitor

Happy Hoof: can't find the ingredients, I am not sure that it much different from HiFi Light, but it is promoted as a hay replacer, a tiny handful is not going to kill the horse, but there are non additive chaffs out there' When any horse [or human] is on restricted diet I am always very wary of additives, not sure if this is scientific or just my gut feeling.
I would buy a weightape and measure the pony once a week every week at the same time, you don't want to lose weight too rapidly, but it will be difficult to tell just by looking, use the "weight" over two weeks, and adjust accordingly. If soaking properly there should be little chance of fattening the pony on almost any diet.
The number of feeds may need to be adjusted to make sure the horse does not stand for eight hours with no food.
The diet of 6.5kgs feed if fed at 2%% of bodyweight estimates the actual current weight as 6.5 times 50 = 325Kgs, is this correct? ...... I stand to be corrected as I m not good at maths.
 
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I feel your pain! I'm soaking hay for two ponies and it's a right faff. I soak hay during the day for about 7-10 hours and over night for up to 14 hours in two big trugs, then rinse the hay before leaving it to drain for another good 12 hours. Hifi light has molasses in it, so I would be thinking about removing that from his feed. Dengie do a molasses free chaff and Honeychop do a plain chopped oat straw, which are OK alternatives.

Not sure if your vet has mentioned it, but have you thought about testing for cushings?
 
Bonkers2 said:
Hi Fi light still has molassess, low in sugar [their words] is relative at 7%
Ingredients: Cereal straw, alfalfa, molasses, mould inhibitor

Happy Hoof: can't find the ingredients, I am not sure that it much different from HiFi Light, but it is promoted as a hay replacer, a tiny handful is not going to kill the horse, but there are non additive chaffs out there' When any horse [or human] is on restricted diet I am always very wary of additives, not sure if this is scientific or just my gut feeling.
I would buy a weightape and measure the pony once a week every week at the same time, you don't want to lose weight too rapidly, but it will be difficult to tell just by looking, use the "weight" over two weeks, and adjust accordingly. If soaking properly there should be little chance of fattening the pony on almost any diet.
The number of feeds may need to be adjusted to make sure the horse does not stand for eight hours with no food.
The diet of 6.5kgs feed if fed at 2%% of bodyweight estimates the actual current weight as 6.5 times 50 = 325Kgs, is this correct? ...... I stand to be corrected as I m not good at maths.
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No. He weight tapes at around 615kgs and doesn't look unduly heavy for his type. He's a very chunky highland with a lot of bone, huge shoulders, a deep barrel of a body and a broad chest - a real mini heavy ...... (Will have to try to post a recent pic) He's not unduly cresty either. Clearly he needs to lose some but I have known him heavier!! (he's only 14.2 ... my old YO used to call him "a big horse on short legs!"...). His feeds comprise a level stubbs scoop of HiFi Light (used to be H/Hoof), another of soaked beet and half a pint jug of balancer in the evening, and the chaff and beet combo for breakfast. I add a small amount of Flax oil to help his coat and a bit of salt. I used to add a carrot chopped up small as well, but have stopped that. I need to get his hay right as he'd eaten up this morning but had drunk noticeably less water overnight that normal. I don't want to cure his sore feet and finish off with colic!!!! Thanks for your advice. It's much appreciated.
 
A full on overweight 16.2 hh TB which we once got back from an owner for racehorse training had an actual weight of 650kg [I used to weigh 60 horses per week on a very accurate scale].
The weightapes are no use for horses and ponies a bit off the scale, however they are excellent for monitoring weight loss/gain.

So, my guess is your very solid highland will be around 500kgs.
Take measurements. measure from point of shoulder to point of rump and from girth to the wither.

Here is Blue Cross site
http://www.bluecross.org.uk/80161-80956/How-to-check-the-weight-of-your-horse.html

Heartgirth squared times length of body in inches x 330 = weight in lbs.
The answer in lbs
Divide the answer by 2.2 to get weight in kgs.

1% of 500kgs= 5kgs
0.5% of 500kgs = 2.5kgs

SO, the required diet for your highland [which of course I have never seen! and know nothing of], is min 1.5%=7.5kgs
Maintenance @ 2% is 10kgs
 
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Greylegs said:
... And just how much good does it do? My boy has been a bit sore on his feet and vet is saying the dreaded "L" word!! He's on box rest for a week and I've been told to soak his hay. I keep him on livery at a yard quite close to home, and have a tub etc to use, but timings are proving a challenge. Just how long does it need to be soaked for and how long is too long? His morning net will have been sitting in mucky water overnight for up to 16 hours by the time he gets it. Alternative is soaking for 2-3 hours. Everything I've read is confusing me. Some literature says 2-3 hours is enough to make a meaningful reduction in sugar levels, but other stuff says it needs at least 12 hours. Can I soak it during the day, take it out to drain and then feed it the following morning? Any thoughts or advice would be welcome. Thanks.
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Having lost my mare to *L* I soaked 24 hr no less and rinsed thoroughly till water clear - I had hay soaked indifferent stages of soaking and then added new to the beginning as I used a section.

This website is purely previous H&H post of various ailments , there is a lot on Lami - http://horse-care-and-advice.weebly.com/l.html

I would not feed happy hoof to a horse having a flare up of laminitis.


Phone D&H help line


Also Equimins Laminator is good for making the vessels more elasticated in the hoof to help with circulation.
 
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Bonkers2 said:
A full on overweight 16.2 hh TB which we once got back from an owner for racehorse training had an actual weight of 650kg [I used to weigh 60 horses per week on a very accurate scale].
The weightapes are no use for horses and ponies a bit off the scale, however they are excellent for monitoring weight loss/gain.

So, my guess is your very solid highland will be around 500kgs.
Take measurements. measure from point of shoulder to point of rump and from girth to the wither.

Here is Blue Cross site
http://www.bluecross.org.uk/80161-80956/How-to-check-the-weight-of-your-horse.html

Heartgirth squared times length of body in inches x 330 = weight in lbs.
The answer in lbs
Divide the answer by 2.2 to get weight in kgs.

1% of 500kgs= 5kgs
0.5% of 500kgs = 2.5kgs

SO, the required diet for your highland [which of course I have never seen! and know nothing of], is min 1.5%=7.5kgs
Maintenance @ 2% is 10kgs
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I'll try that, thanks. Will be interesting to see how that comes out. i'll report back. Here's a pic of him taken last week ... not a brilliant pic, straight in from the field, but it gives you a feel for his size and shape. A bit of a chunk!! (Hope this works ...)

IMG_2583 by NittyNattyNora, on Flickr

ETA ...nope, didn't work. Never could work out how to post pics. Anyway ... I'll try the measuring thing and see what I get. Thanks again.
 
gocharliego said:
I feel your pain! I'm soaking hay for two ponies and it's a right faff. I soak hay during the day for about 7-10 hours and over night for up to 14 hours in two big trugs, then rinse the hay before leaving it to drain for another good 12 hours. Hifi light has molasses in it, so I would be thinking about removing that from his feed. Dengie do a molasses free chaff and Honeychop do a plain chopped oat straw, which are OK alternatives.

Not sure if your vet has mentioned it, but have you thought about testing for cushings?
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Yes, the vet did mention doing blood tests to test for Cushings and EMS. We have another appointment for next week so we'll see how it goes after a week on the new feed regime. The vet told me to ditch the Happy Hoof (which looks like good advice) and get HiFi Light instead, which i've done. It's a bit of a minefield, and i'm tying to find my way through at the moment. I just want my boy to be sound and healthy .... might be chucking a whole bag of HiFi Light on the muck heap this afternoon!!! ... ARGH!!! I have an excellent local feed store so will see what else they have in stock instead.
 
HGA-12 said:
I know these are expensive but they hold a section hay perfectly and it is what I use to drain the water

off http://www.homebase.co.uk/en/homeba...rackets/duraline-basket-runner---white-107839
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Nice idea, thanks for posting, but wouldn't work for me. The yard has its hay in big round bales so I take what I need from that supply. They're fine with me using however much I need, which is great, but I pull off the right weight and net it. So i'm soaking it ready netted.
 
Greylegs said:
Yes, the vet did mention doing blood tests to test for Cushings and EMS. We have another appointment for next week so we'll see how it goes after a week on the new feed regime. The vet told me to ditch the Happy Hoof (which looks like good advice) and get HiFi Light instead, which i've done. It's a bit of a minefield, and i'm tying to find my way through at the moment. I just want my boy to be sound and healthy .... might be chucking a whole bag of HiFi Light on the muck heap this afternoon!!! ... ARGH!!! I have an excellent local feed store so will see what else they have in stock instead.
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Someone will buy your chaff off you, don't bin it!
Have you looked at the feet [in detail] so you can identify white line stretch and so on, the farrier will have time to talk to you about hooves if you spend time with him, we often forget there is someone with a lot of knowledge about hooves, a good farrier knows rather a lot!
 
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Im in the same boat as the OP, a very solid, chunky 14.2 highland. For the first time ever I am soaking hay. I feed 6.5kg dry weight of a hay and straw mix every day plus 1 round scoop of hi fi lite in the morning. By feeding straw and hay mixed he gets more bulk in the feed, he was very very grumpy with 6.5 kg of hay only, straw is much lighter so more in his tummy. I soak the hay and add dry straw. I soak half the hay overnight, then the rest through the day and feed am and pm. He is out almost 24/7 but have also switched to shavings in his box to stop him gorging on more straw. This routine has managed to get him to almost his ideal weight but am very conscious we are just about to hit spring grass :( If anyone can add any tips for managing very very good doers through spring and summer I would be very grateful, as Im sure would lots of us. On my weigh tape he is 605kg, did get up to 640 in December :(
 
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The grass is higher in sugar in autumn, in spring, when green, when lush, when plentiful, green and just grass!
Also more sugar in forenoon, and when frosted.
The idea of "paddock paradise" is that horses have to keep exercising while seeking something to eat.
If you are not able to do this, then I think you will have to do more hacking, as long as you can keep going, they will keep going, a steady six hour hack is nothing to a fit highlander. If they can be stabled part of the day, even four hours per day, it might be better.
Keep walking.
 
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ycbm said:
You can soak it for sixteen hours, no problem. I soak for twenty four and drain and leave for up to another twenty four, but check it's not gone warm, and shake it loose if it has and feed when cold.
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That's gross!! Two day old slimy hay?????

Op sugar leaches out of grass VERY VERY quickly. 30mins is enough. Go to safergrass.org and read all about it.

When I was soaking hay I soaked a net while I was mucking out and hung it for the night/day so it had drained well.

In the end, after lots of research I found the reason for his lami and it was nothing to do with sugar so stopped soaking hay and he was able to eat grass like a normal horse. Good luck with yours :)
 
MyBoyChe said:
Im in the same boat as the OP, a very solid, chunky 14.2 highland. For the first time ever I am soaking hay. I feed 6.5kg dry weight of a hay and straw mix every day plus 1 round scoop of hi fi lite in the morning. By feeding straw and hay mixed he gets more bulk in the feed, he was very very grumpy with 6.5 kg of hay only, straw is much lighter so more in his tummy. I soak the hay and add dry straw. I soak half the hay overnight, then the rest through the day and feed am and pm. He is out almost 24/7 but have also switched to shavings in his box to stop him gorging on more straw. This routine has managed to get him to almost his ideal weight but am very conscious we are just about to hit spring grass :( If anyone can add any tips for managing very very good doers through spring and summer I would be very grateful, as Im sure would lots of us. On my weigh tape he is 605kg, did get up to 640 in December :(
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I can't tell you you relieved I was to read this post. i was beginning to think my boy is the chunkiest highland out there, but clearly he's comparable to others. My problem at the moment is that he's on box rest so can only eat what I give him. The straw idea might be worth looking at because the yard does have a supply of good quality straw which lots of folks use for bedding. My lad is on shavings on top of rubber matting. I'm now at the point where i'm considering moving to an alternative yard where I can restrict and manage his grass intake a lot better (they allow strip grazing on individual turnout paddocks, where my current yard doesn't) and where the hacking is a lot better (it's awful where I am now!) so I can get him moving a lot more. Once sound, that might be the way forward. Only problem there is that it's a DIY yard and I'm on a 5 day full livery arrangement where I am now. Hey ho ... just have to get used to getting up in the mornings!!!!

Thanks again everyone. i'm off to the yard with a tape measure ....
 
So ... back from my measuring mission. He measures 78 round his middle and 72.5 long. Which calculates out to 607kg ... so the vet's tape (615kg) wasn't too far out. Either way, he should probably be nearer 550 - 560 kg so that's what we'll aim at.

Tallyho ... thanks for the link. The more I read about this the better so I can get on top of it in my head. Offered him some straw just now and he didn't seem interested so that's probably not an option. I suspect I'll be fishing it out of his bed at tea time !!!

Onwards and upwards ...
 
Mine always eats his hay first, I net it hay on the bottom, soak, drain then add the straw. He bats the net around until all the hay has gone but always finishes the straw by the time the next net is due. My boy was so bad tempered because he was hungry on his minimum rations, maybe your lad isnt as hungry as you think. Based on the feed ration for his weigh taped weight when he was 640 kg he was getting 8kg hay/straw plus whatever grass he could scavenge from his very bare winter paddock, plus his hifi. I am gradually reducing it as his weight drops and because his tummy is fuller he has become much more amenable again. Feeding natives is much harder work than you think it is going to be!
 
Greylegs said:
Yes, the vet did mention doing blood tests to test for Cushings and EMS. We have another appointment for next week so we'll see how it goes after a week on the new feed regime. The vet told me to ditch the Happy Hoof (which looks like good advice) and get HiFi Light instead, which i've done. It's a bit of a minefield, and i'm tying to find my way through at the moment. I just want my boy to be sound and healthy .... might be chucking a whole bag of HiFi Light on the muck heap this afternoon!!! ... ARGH!!! I have an excellent local feed store so will see what else they have in stock instead.
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It is so difficult trying to figure out what is best. Best of luck and I hope he comes sounds.

MyBoyChe said:
Im in the same boat as the OP, a very solid, chunky 14.2 highland. For the first time ever I am soaking hay. I feed 6.5kg dry weight of a hay and straw mix every day plus 1 round scoop of hi fi lite in the morning. By feeding straw and hay mixed he gets more bulk in the feed, he was very very grumpy with 6.5 kg of hay only, straw is much lighter so more in his tummy. I soak the hay and add dry straw. I soak half the hay overnight, then the rest through the day and feed am and pm. He is out almost 24/7 but have also switched to shavings in his box to stop him gorging on more straw. This routine has managed to get him to almost his ideal weight but am very conscious we are just about to hit spring grass :( If anyone can add any tips for managing very very good doers through spring and summer I would be very grateful, as Im sure would lots of us. On my weigh tape he is 605kg, did get up to 640 in December :(
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I don't think I would be feeding the hifi light, it has a deceptive title really as it has molasses in it - an oat straw chaff or fibre mash would be better, you could even use them as a partial hay replacement. Use a grazing muzzle when turned out on grass (preferably at night), bring in during the day or just take him off the grass (especially is he has a grazing muzzle to give him a break from it) and feed soaked hay from several nets over each other (so, double or triple netting). Other than that, just plenty of exercise and monitor digital pulses morning and night. Think that's all I've got! Good luck for this spring and summer.
 
Depends how rich your hay is.Dont believe it is a waste of time.My lad was munching happily on 2 years old hay when we had to use a much newer bale in Jan. about 9mths old.Despite mixing a small amount with older he went down with an acute laminitis attack.After soaking the new,The very dark solution that came out was amazing.After running out of the older hay we tried to get another lot of the same and left the newer bales till the end of the year.Leaving it to soak for around 7hrs should ok but not much longer as it can become smelly and unpalatable.Rinsing the hay after soaking helps to get rid of the sugars.If you can get hold of older hay but still good quality its half the battle and about 3hrs soaking is usually effective if the horse is prone to laminitis.
 
tallyho! said:
That's gross!! Two day old slimy hay?????

Op sugar leaches out of grass VERY VERY quickly. 30mins is enough. Go to safergrass.org and read all about it.

When I was soaking hay I soaked a net while I was mucking out and hung it for the night/day so it had drained well.

In the end, after lots of research I found the reason for his lami and it was nothing to do with sugar so stopped soaking hay and he was able to eat grass like a normal horse. Good luck with yours :)
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Of course I don't feed slimy hay, for the simple reason that it is not slimy.

30 minutes is not enough for severely affected horses. My friend had one which was only happy on her feet if the hay was soaked TWICE for 24 hours each time, with clean water in between. She was severely insulin resistant and in the end tested positive for cushings and was then put down..

What was the reason for your horses laminitis?
 
ycbm said:
Of course I don't feed slimy hay, for the simple reason that it is not slimy.

30 minutes is not enough for severely affected horses. My friend had one which was only happy on her feet if the hay was soaked TWICE for 24 hours each time, with clean water in between. She was severely insulin resistant and in the end tested positive for cushings and was then put down..

What was the reason for your horses laminitis?
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Ok, well perhaps not and if the horse is sound then that is what matters.

I have found the study and I admit I was quite wrong! 24 hour soaking does remove more sugar than 1 hour. So I apologise :)

Here you are: http://www.extension.umn.edu/agriculture/horse/nutrition/hay-soaking/

Note the mineral content.

My horse was suffering from IMS but was fit. In the end it turns out his liver and kidneys were very sluggish. I could never work out why he had swollen legs and the mud fever was severe on top of the lami.

Sorted the liver and kidneys and this seemed to clear up the mf, he was much brighter, less footy and after a while was turned out without a muzzle with his buddies and competed barefoot.

There are many causes for lami, I think the vet world is waking up to that it's not just sugar. Sometimes over supplementation can be a factor and I was certainly overdoing it on the old balancers!! I took him off everything, and he just had speedibeet and chaff with some magnesium and copper rich licks. His liver just couldn't cope with all the minerals!
 
tallyho! said:
Ok, well perhaps not and if the horse is sound then that is what matters.

I have found the study and I admit I was quite wrong! 24 hour soaking does remove more sugar than 1 hour. So I apologise :)

Here you are: http://www.extension.umn.edu/agriculture/horse/nutrition/hay-soaking/

Note the mineral content.

My horse was suffering from IMS but was fit. In the end it turns out his liver and kidneys were very sluggish. I could never work out why he had swollen legs and the mud fever was severe on top of the lami.

Sorted the liver and kidneys and this seemed to clear up the mf, he was much brighter, less footy and after a while was turned out without a muzzle with his buddies and competed barefoot.

There are many causes for lami, I think the vet world is waking up to that it's not just sugar. Sometimes over supplementation can be a factor and I was certainly overdoing it on the old balancers!! I took him off everything, and he just had speedibeet and chaff with some magnesium and copper rich licks. His liver just couldn't cope with all the minerals!
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That's very interesting thank you for explaining about your horse.
 
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