Soaking hay ... What a palaver ...

tallyho! said:
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I have found the study and I admit I was quite wrong! 24 hour soaking does remove more sugar than 1 hour. So I apologise :)

Here you are: http://www.extension.umn.edu/agriculture/horse/nutrition/hay-soaking/

Note the mineral content.

My horse was suffering from IMS but was fit. In the end it turns out his liver and kidneys were very sluggish. I could never work out why he had swollen legs and the mud fever was severe on top of the lami.

Sorted the liver and kidneys and this seemed to clear up the mf, he was much brighter, less footy and after a while was turned out without a muzzle with his buddies and competed barefoot.

There are many causes for lami, I think the vet world is waking up to that it's not just sugar. Sometimes over supplementation can be a factor and I was certainly overdoing it on the old balancers!! I took him off everything, and he just had speedibeet and chaff with some magnesium and copper rich licks. His liver just couldn't cope with all the minerals!
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Looking at this survey, 24 hour soaking removes Dry Matter, though I can't work out how much, I would guesstimate 10%, so would increase the amount of forage to compensate, else one might overstarve the horse who is already on a restricted diet.

quote "When soaking hay, additional hay should be soaked to account for the loss in DM."

I find it difficult to determine correct mineral content for horses, as we were always told a horse exretes excess.
And there is no mention of salt.
 
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He will also drink less dueto eating soaked hay, they get a lot of water from that so don't worry too much that his water trug isn't as empty as when on normal hay :)
 
Bonkers2 said:
Looking at this survey, 24 hour soaking removes Dry Matter, though I can't work out how much, I would guesstimate 10%, so would increase the amount of forage to compensate, else one might overstarve the horse who is already on a restricted diet.

quote "When soaking hay, additional hay should be soaked to account for the loss in DM."

I find it difficult to determine correct mineral content for horses, as we were always told a horse exretes excess.
And there is no mention of salt.
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We'll I suppose it would be the combined reduction of sugars and minerals considering the dry matter has been soaked extensively in water! :D DM is the dry content which includes carbs, minerals, fats and proteins and fibre etc etc...

I think what's important to draw from the study is that, soaking not only removes the unwanted sugar, it takes everything with it including carbs and minerals which is essentially salts and Na is bound to a lot of things.

Since carbs are an important part of a horses diet, it's important not to restrict it or else you cause other pathologies and are essentially starving the horse. And the high calcium content is detrimental to health... on top of that, what owners typically do is supplement a broad spectrum mineral balancers and further exacerbates the original problem.

Considering laminitis is a metabolic problem, soaking hay leaches out some of the essential metabolises the horse needs just to function. Whilst the horse may seem sound... is it?

I agree with the study that hay should be analysed, all other supplemented foodstuffs be taken into account and then soaked accordingly.

Or.... you could just fix the glaring issue... which in most cases in this country and the USA... Over feeding and over supplementation which the system just can't cope with in the first place. This is widely reported by every veterinary practice in the UK.

We just need to look at laminitis in a different way. It's not a sugar issue...
 
tallyho! said:
We'll I suppose it would be the combined reduction of sugars and minerals considering the dry matter has been soaked extensively in water! :D DM is the dry content which includes carbs, minerals, fats and proteins and fibre etc etc...

I think what's important to draw from the study is that, soaking not only removes the unwanted sugar, it takes everything with it including carbs and minerals which is essentially salts and Na is bound to a lot of things.

Since carbs are an important part of a horses diet, it's important not to restrict it or else you cause other pathologies and are essentially starving the horse. And the high calcium content is detrimental to health... on top of that, what owners typically do is supplement a broad spectrum mineral balancers and further exacerbates the original problem.

Considering laminitis is a metabolic problem, soaking hay leaches out some of the essential metabolises the horse needs just to function. Whilst the horse may seem sound... is it?

I agree with the study that hay should be analysed, all other supplemented foodstuffs be taken into account and then soaked accordingly.

Or.... you could just fix the glaring issue... which in most cases in this country and the USA... Over feeding and over supplementation which the system just can't cope with in the first place. This is widely reported by every veterinary practice in the UK.

We just need to look at laminitis in a different way. It's not a sugar issue...
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WHOA there .............
Calcium: what matters is the ratio of Ca to P, and I believe remains within acceptable parameters [note scientific term]
I know what dry matter is, its what is left when water is removed from a product, as happens when the oven is left on too long, but not high enough to burn something, the original product retains most of its goodness.

The soaking water is going to selectively remove constituents from the product [hay]
1] sugars -------- these are water soluble, by definition.
2] minerals leach [as above], but some will be bound in to the hay, so we really are in the dark, this is why minerals are added, and as we are in trouble with the hoof, we would assume that using a mineral balanced for feet is the ideal.
Salt [NACl]is very soluble and is required for many functions, so salt is a good additive, however "salts" covers a whole number of compounds, from chemistry you recall acid+base=salt + water, only a base containing Na will produce "common salt"
Common salt absorbs moisture from the air, and this will spoil any mineral or feed mix, so it is best added to the daily feed.

Yes, in a perfect world we would take the soaked hay and subject it to analysis, and from there, if we know the exact weight and the exact RDA then we could make up a mineral for the horse, be this is not possible.
The evidence suggests that a horse in reasonable health can excrete those minerals it does not require.

Comments about over feeding of supplements are very general, if you go to the Becktolsteimer yard each of the top horses have their own supplement, this is based on detailed scientific plans, it is not detrimental to the health of their horses. However many people do not feed a good basic diet including a BALANCED mineral mix, instead they rush down to the feedstore and pick up the first product that seems to "cure" today's problem, I have done this myself when faced with horses with a problem who have arrived at the yard without having been fed properly in the previous months.

This study does not suggest that "all supplements are wrong" and no supplements should be fed. Anything that is added to the diet of hay or grass may be viewed as a supplement.
 
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Bonkers2 said:
WHOA there .............
Calcium: what matters is the ratio of Ca to P, and I believe remains within acceptable parameters [note scientific term]
I know what dry matter is, its what is left when water is removed from a product, as happens when the oven is left on too long, but not high enough to burn something, the original product retains most of its goodness.

The soaking water is going to selectively remove constituents from the product [hay]
1] sugars -------- these are water soluble, by definition.
2] minerals leach [as above], but some will be bound in to the hay, so we really are in the dark, this is why minerals are added, and as we are in trouble with the hoof, we would assume that using a mineral balanced for feet is the ideal.
Salt [NACl]is very soluble and is required for many functions, so salt is a good additive, however "salts" covers a whole number of compounds, from chemistry you recall acid+base=salt + water, only a base containing Na will produce "common salt"
Common salt absorbs moisture from the air, and this will spoil any mineral or feed mix, so it is best added to the daily feed.

Yes, in a perfect world we would take the soaked hay and subject it to analysis, and from there, if we know the exact weight and the exact RDA then we could make up a mineral for the horse, be this is not possible.
The evidence suggests that a horse in reasonable health can excrete those minerals it does not require.

Comments about over feeding of supplements are very general, if you go to the Becktolsteimer yard each of the top horses have their own supplement, this is based on detailed scientific plans, it is not detrimental to the health of their horses. However many people do not feed a good basic diet including a BALANCED mineral mix, instead they rush down to the feedstore and pick up the first product that seems to "cure" today's problem, I have done this myself when faced with horses with a problem who have arrived at the yard without having been fed properly in the previous months.

This study does not suggest that "all supplements are wrong" and no supplements should be fed. Anything that is added to the diet of hay or grass may be viewed as a supplement.
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Whoa there yourself...

The study says the ca:P ratio is high and soaking sets to reduce phosphorous and not calcium so that is why the ratio is inverted when hay is soaked.

As for over supplementation "comments", this is not a generalisation. On the contrary... Mineral supplementation which is "assumed" without knowing the true need of the animal is not best practice. Which is probably why Dr Bechstolscheimer's horses all receive a bespoke nutritional plan. Plus they are all in regular work! All the veterinary articles on supplementation suggest forage is analysed before balancing to reduce toxicosis. There are no studies that provide exact requirements... Only guidelines and that is why there are so many on the market claiming they can do miraculous things. I think we agree on this...

The study doesn't say anything about supplementation, it just shows what can be leached from hay samples.

My experience (and subsequent research) has shown me, however, that oversupplemetation is a concern all owners of metabolically challenged horses should consider. The effects on absorption and excretion should be one of the main considerations. A scattergun approach can lead to some minerals inhibiting the absorption of others e.g. Cu and Fe.
 
I soak overnight in a Wheelie Bin with a plastic tap attached at the bottom (cheap as chips on EBay). In colder weather with cold water the sugars will not seep out as effectively compared to soaking in warm water.
 
Really recomend that you look at The Laminitis Site and join the associated fb group for ems and ppid horses.The ladies on there will help you with all things lami,diet,exercise, hay soaking,trimming etc.I did when I was in the same boat as you and received loads of informative,fact based help. I am sure you won't regret it.
 
Agree with oldgreymare...have a look at the laminitis site...its not all about the sugars, its about the starch levels as well and how much exercise you do with your horse, esp with ems.
 
Thanks for all the replies everyone. The advice is extremely helpful and I've certainly learned a lot from following up some of the links and information sources. Still got a lot of reading to do, but I'm getting better informed by the day and getting my head round management of my boy's care going forward. I am now in a "soaking" routine, but seem to be soaking myself as much as the hay!! To say nothing of how heavy a net of soaked hay actually is. Not sure my old back will stand much more of this!! But the vet is back on Tuesday, so I'll see where we go from there.

Micky ... interesting point about exercise. My lad has had less exercise over this winter than he has in previous years because I moved yards in November and the hacking from the new yard is not as good/safe as it was at the old place. We do have a decent indoor school but I'm not much for schooling these days so he's done less, which might be a contributing factor. More reading required on that topic I think.

Thanks again everyone. Interesting discussion and lots to learn.
 
I've been soaking for 10 months now, for a horse that suffered very severe toxic lamintis, resulting in sinking in both hind feet, and rotation to a lesser degree in the fronts.

I soak for 24 hrs. I have 3 trug tubs, so 3 nets soaking and one hanging drying, whilst he eats another. I had this hay tested (home grown), it had been left til late in the season, and still tested 10% sugar. He also has a net of straw at all times. he's been boxed rested the whole time. He get honeychop plain (opnly oat straw chaff), D and H high fibres cubes (400g), Slim aid from feedmark and magnesium.

This week he had a insulin blood test, came back at 4.2, his feet are amazing now, so finally he'll be going out into a tiny paddock, but nonetheless, he'll be out!
 
Just re read this thread as I am in a very similar position to the OP, same type of pony, same issues. There is so much to learn about this subject and when you start researching you uncover even more that you didnt even know you needed to know. I started soaking hay about a month ago as my pony simply wasnt dropping enough weight even with no hard feed and minimal rugging! It has made a huge difference, he has dropped more in the last month than in the previous 3 and is now almost where I need him to be going into spring. I soak for 12 hours and he gets 3kg am and the same pm. If it is very cold I add a little dry straw to the soggy hay to bulk it out. He has just started picking over the hay and leaving the straw so rations are being cut again and his field has been sectioned off. I agree, it is a pita soaking hay, dragging buckets of water around and huge, soggy, wet hay nets but in our case it has been completely worth it. My OH has made up a little hay soaker for me. Its one of those garden trolleys you see in Sunday supplements, a wire mesh one. We have put a small plastic water trough in it, drilled a hole through the bottom of the trough and fitted a water butt tap then attached a length of hose to the tap. I can pull the trolley to the water supple, fill it then drag it back to where I leave it. Then just point the hose out into the yard, turn the tap to drain and leave the hay to dry a bit. I do have to unblock the tap from time to time as bits of hay get stuck but it has made life easier.
 
Follow up post .... Vet now been again and all tests for EMS and Cushings A&E negative, so very happy about that. Pony's feet now cool and stable and sound on all surfaces, so am going to start him on gentle work again and build up from there.

However, we now have another problem ... Vet says he can go out on restricted grazing, but there isnt anywhere he can go on this yard and not able to fence off a section to contain him in. Think I'll have to go out and get some poles and tape and do the job myself (pony on full livery btw!). At the moment, I'm going up and bringing him in after 3hours to limit his grass time but not ideal. Pointless post really, but feel really frustrated about it all.
 
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Your yard situation doesn't sound ideal. Could you get him a muzzle? I personally prefer to have mine on a larger field while muzzled 24/7 than on a tiny patch where they're not moving. Well done for doing your research, lami is an absolute minefield and causes me more stress than anything else! I soak my hay for 8-16 hours simply for convenience sake. I put it in a big water trug by the drain so I just have to tip it over, wait a couple of minutes and then it isn't too heavy to lift. IME soaking has been necessary - my boys were much worse without it. However the best thing (once they're sound) is undoubtedly exercise. A fit horse is very unlikely to get laminitis so once he's feeling better up the exercise as much as you can.

Just a warning - now he's had lami he is much more likely to get it in the future so keep your eyes peeled for any sign of footiness from now on. The moment you see any sign, bring him off grass straight away. It's a faff but it will prevent a full blown attack. Another thing to consider - larger natives like highlands and Welsh Sec D's are more susceptible to pedal bone rotation due to their higher weight. Repeated attacks of lami are therefore often more dangerous. If you have a trimmer, ask him/her to keep an eye out for any signs of rotation, again so you can catch it early.
 
Apercrumbie said:
Your yard situation doesn't sound ideal. Could you get him a muzzle? I personally prefer to have mine on a larger field while muzzled 24/7 than on a tiny patch where they're not moving. Well done for doing your research, lami is an absolute minefield and causes me more stress than anything else! I soak my hay for 8-16 hours simply for convenience sake. I put it in a big water trug by the drain so I just have to tip it over, wait a couple of minutes and then it isn't too heavy to lift. IME soaking has been necessary - my boys were much worse without it. However the best thing (once they're sound) is undoubtedly exercise. A fit horse is very unlikely to get laminitis so once he's feeling better up the exercise as much as you can.

Just a warning - now he's had lami he is much more likely to get it in the future so keep your eyes peeled for any sign of footiness from now on. The moment you see any sign, bring him off grass straight away. It's a faff but it will prevent a full blown attack. Another thing to consider - larger natives like highlands and Welsh Sec D's are more susceptible to pedal bone rotation due to their higher weight. Repeated attacks of lami are therefore often more dangerous. If you have a trimmer, ask him/her to keep an eye out for any signs of rotation, again so you can catch it early.
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Thanks for this. I agree I need to get him moving more. The whole situation has now been compounded by my beloved farrier having to retire for health reasons and I now have to look round for another one who I both like and "gets" the barefoot/lami thing. There are two things to consider now ... firstly whether to move to another yard where I can restrict grazing more and there's much better hacking, which will help with the diet and exercise: secondly, whether to shoe his fronts to protect them a bit. I agree the weight thing is critical (he's a chunk of a highland, weighing it at around 600kg at the mo!!). I'm absolutely prepared to do anything I can to get him right and keep him that way. But at the moment that means he's in 20 hours a day for his own sake. Not ideal!! I think the move is the best watt go and I'll discuss the foot care with whoever I get to be his care professional going forward.
 
Greylegs said:
Thanks for this. I agree I need to get him moving more. The whole situation has now been compounded by my beloved farrier having to retire for health reasons and I now have to look round for another one who I both like and "gets" the barefoot/lami thing. There are two things to consider now ... firstly whether to move to another yard where I can restrict grazing more and there's much better hacking, which will help with the diet and exercise: secondly, whether to shoe his fronts to protect them a bit. I agree the weight thing is critical (he's a chunk of a highland, weighing it at around 600kg at the mo!!). I'm absolutely prepared to do anything I can to get him right and keep him that way. But at the moment that means he's in 20 hours a day for his own sake. Not ideal!! I think the move is the best watt go and I'll discuss the foot care with whoever I get to be his care professional going forward.
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I think a move would be a good idea for you, not only to give you more flexibility with turnout but also for better hacking for those lovely summer evenings! I entirely sympathise, I have exactly the same problems with my two natives and I struggle to get them enough exercise. You sound like you're definitely on the right track so remember to give yourself a pat on the back every now and then, lami is so hard to manage and you're doing all the right things.
 
Greylegs said:
... And just how much good does it do? My boy has been a bit sore on his feet and vet is saying the dreaded "L" word!! He's on box rest for a week and I've been told to soak his hay. I keep him on livery at a yard quite close to home, and have a tub etc to use, but timings are proving a challenge. Just how long does it need to be soaked for and how long is too long? His morning net will have been sitting in mucky water overnight for up to 16 hours by the time he gets it. Alternative is soaking for 2-3 hours. Everything I've read is confusing me. Some literature says 2-3 hours is enough to make a meaningful reduction in sugar levels, but other stuff says it needs at least 12 hours. Can I soak it during the day, take it out to drain and then feed it the following morning? Any thoughts or advice would be welcome. Thanks.
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Having lost my mare to *L*

Why don't you do what I did
have 3-4 sections soaking but have a white board which says when they went in or use your phone. A pain I know but use different tubs. It was easy for me as I had a big hay bath and had 4 sections on their side and called them 1 -2 -3 -4 and knew when they went in so each section she had - was soaked 12 hrs and easy for others who fed her and when that section was used another put in.

No hay in the water too long especially if u you use different containers like this - they can be refilled with new water for the new sections http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tubtrugs-Go...28491549&sr=8-3&keywords=tubtrugs+extra+large
 
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I think you need to move yards too. Some YOs seem to be more worried about the yard routine and everything fitting in with them, than the welfare of the horses in their care (not saying this is your problem OP but a generalisation). As a fairly new native owner, having only had TBs or part bred TBs for the last 30 odd years I can honestly say that my hardy native pony is harder to manage than my ex racehorse :) He might be fine in the highlands of Scotland but in the lush pasture of North Bucks he is most definitely not. I am on DIY and we all manage our own little patch. I have had to really stick to my guns with my YOs and insist that in the summer most of my bit is fenced off, track systemed (sp) or just left to grow long until winter. They don't like the "untidiness" but have accepted it is for the welfare of the pony and close their eyes when they drive past the long grass :) I like him to be out as much as possible so never rest any for spring grass, I do it in reverse and save a bit for winter grazing. He grazes the same patch 365 days a year with the exception of the bit that I save for winter
 
Thanks again for your support folks. It really does help to "chat" to people who understand and have had similar experiences. I've put myself on the waiting list for the other yard and they have a space coming up very soon I hope. i'll move as soon as I can and will then have my own small patch to manage with a track system or strip grazing which will really help and give my lad a better quality of life too. The YO there is completely OK with that. Also, there's another highland at the other yard and I've had a chat with his owner who has said she may be willing to pair our two up as they're so similar as she's having to really restrict hers too. So I do have hope that things will look up and become easier soon. For now, I'm just going to have to keep restricting him at the present yard and giving him as much exercise as I can in the school until I can move.

Thanks again all.
 
HGA-12 said:
I would not feed happy hoof to a horse having a flare up of laminitis..
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Nor would I.

I used it for my lami prone Shetland a few years ago when he didn't have laminitis and was on restricted grass, lots of exercise and wasn't overweight, and guess what happened - he got laminitis!!! He was only getting a couple of handfuls at a time. I wouldn't touch the stuff with a barge pole anymore.

Glad to hear that you have support at your yard, having the two highlands grazing together sounds a good plan. It will make the restriction on grazing much nicer (if that's possible) for them to have each other for company. It could even stop 'helpful' people letting them out to be with others if they see they are not on their own. I had that happen once with the shettie, someone thought I was being cruel giving him so little food and keeping him away from his bigger friends and all the lovely grass they were eating. That led to an episode of lami as well after they let him out. To do so they had to leave the public footpath and let down two electric fences . . . . some people :(
 
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