Socialising a GSD puppy

OlderNotWiser

OlderNotWiser

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A friend of mine who is owns a Border Collie and a Lab cross has been looking for a GSD. She has found a pup from what appears to be a reputable breeder. He is the last of the litter and they were (according to the ad) going to keep him for themselves but have decided not to. He is already just over 13 weeks. My question to any GSD (or similar) owners on the forum is, bearing in mind how important the first month is for socialisation, is this more difficult as the pup is very slightly older? Or is a matter of 4/5 weeks irrelevant if she exposes it to as much as possible now? Hope this doesn’t come across as pedantic as I am genuinely interested in the timing of that all important window for exposing these type of puppies to as much as possible.
 
I'd assume the breeder has done something with the pup if they were running it on for themselves so I wouldn't worry too much. Also depends on what you mean by socialisation!
Obviously exposing a GSD to a lot of environmental stuff is important in youth but it will always fall back to genetics in maturity.
If you want to send me a link to the ad via PM I can check the lines out (if they're known/available).
 
CorvusCorax said:
I'd assume the breeder has done something with the pup if they were running it on for themselves so I wouldn't worry too much. Also depends on what you mean by socialisation!
Obviously exposing a GSD to a lot of environmental stuff is important in youth but it will always fall back to genetics in maturity.
If you want to send me a link to the ad via PM I can check the lines out (if they're known/available).
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Thanks, I’ll ask her to send me a link.
 
I plunged into the GSD world after many years of owning lurchers & terriers. I took my role very seriously😀. Brought her home at seven weeks and immediately started introducing her to experiences relevant to us as a family. As CC says, genetics play a big part in temperament. My girl is a GSD x Mali and is an absolute sweetheart. Not dominant, obedient, confident with other dogs which could be just down the genetics but I also made sure, in her influential months, to introduce her to many different dogs and environments. Speak to the breeder, find out what they have done with the pup. Meet the bitch & stud if possible and go from there🙂
 
It didn't make any difference to my GSD pup what I exposed him to, he was so awkward it made no difference and he simply didn't learn anything. His father, I later found, was a very late maturing dog and mine certainly is. He is now 1 yr 9 months and just starting to learn so to me the first month isn't as important as people suggest. For some dogs it will be good and some, like mine, totally pointless. I am sure it must be down to genetics. My first GSD travelled the length of the country by train at 5 months and was perfectly socialised. My current one I wouldn't have dared even take him to the station at 5 months, even to look at it out of the car window !!

I would be far more concerned about your comment of reputable breeder. I spent a long time finding my dog. I found reputable breeders had long waiting lists and my idea of health checks was not always theirs. I came across a breeder where I very much doubt the parents names on the reg. cert. were really the parents, another where the stud dog was simply lame and very weak behind although the breeder didn't seem to notice and a breeder who I have a very good idea was registering only alternate litters. To me health with a GSD is paramount. They are a breed where a lot can go wrong and vet's bills have the potential to be high.
I was advised by several people, Moobli being one, to get the pedigree checked out by Chris Hazell. That was some of the best advice I was given. I came away with a reasonable degree of confidence about his health when she declared the litter acceptable.
If this is a breeder I would ask to see or get info on owners of earlier pups from the same parents. It was a revelation when I got in touch with these owners. CC comment that it falls back to genetics is spot on.
Sorry if this is a little pedantic.
 
Paddy555 thanks for your reply, not pedantic at all. Your comments are very helpful. I was a little cynical about a breeder having a 13 week old pup available and your point about waiting lists reinforces this. I will pass all of this on. Thanks for taking the time to respond.
 
Sorry, I forgot one other thing. I found reputable breeders interview owners. The owners have to be suitable before they sell to you. Probably easier to adopt a child! We were interviewed by the breeder of a bitch (where the litter didn't happen) we had to visit, spend time with the bitch and talked at length. Same with the breeder where he came from. She had several people in reserve in case any of the sales fell through.
 
paddy555 said:
Sorry, I forgot one other thing. I found reputable breeders interview owners. The owners have to be suitable before they sell to you. Probably easier to adopt a child! We were interviewed by the breeder of a bitch (where the litter didn't happen) we had to visit, spend time with the bitch and talked at length. Same with the breeder where he came from. She had several people in reserve in case any of the sales fell through.
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Absolutely the same experience here. I am always amazed by people (not at all talking about the OP, or her friends) who decide on a dog and hey presto there it is. We have been interviewed by all our pup's breeders and then put on a waiting list and in fact if I wasn't interviewed in the future I would now be suspicious as to why not!
 
It was the same when we got our Doberman; several visits and lots of questions. I think the points you are all raising are very valid and appreciate your input.
 
Not all pups work out for showing or working, I wouldn't be too cynical that he's still there. I got the best dog I've ever had (and am ever likely to have) at 14 weeks as his owner didn't want a longcoat.
His former owner, who had him from 6 weeks, took him to schools at home time, train stations at rush hour, took him to work, he bossed aboyt the dog club on his own like he owned the place, but he's genetically on the edge of nerve and that manifested itself in adulthood.
He's fairly typical of his genetics but it's manageable and the pay-off is speed and power and energy.
 
Quick update - I passed on the comments to my friend Alison. She rang the breeder and asked for scanned copies of the pedigrees and hip & elbow scores by email as well as asking a lot of other questions resulting from your helpful input on here. The breeder became cagey and starting becoming defensive, saying amongst other things, actually the sire was a Czech dog and so the pedigree wouldn’t mean much to anyone in the UK, he didn’t have a scanner, couldn’t photograph on his phone and other such waffle. At this point Alison said thanks but I don’t think this is the pup for me. Sounds like she may have had a lucky escape as it looks as if the paperwork (and therefore the puppy) wasn’t as advertised! Thanks everyone for your guidance!!
 
A good save then ;)

I'm no Chris Hazell lol (we have engaged in a geek-off :p) but would have been happy to read a Czech pedigree. There seems to be a huge sales pitch around certain lines and I've had to deal with two people recently who've been quite badly defrauded in terms of the health and working credentials of dogs they've paid a lot of money for.
If you PM me your friend's rough location and requirements I can have a look at what's about.
 
paddy555 said:
It didn't make any difference to my GSD pup what I exposed him to, he was so awkward it made no difference and he simply didn't learn anything. His father, I later found, was a very late maturing dog and mine certainly is. He is now 1 yr 9 months and just starting to learn so to me the first month isn't as important as people suggest. For some dogs it will be good and some, like mine, totally pointless. I am sure it must be down to genetics. My first GSD travelled the length of the country by train at 5 months and was perfectly socialised. My current one I wouldn't have dared even take him to the station at 5 months, even to look at it out of the car window !!

I would be far more concerned about your comment of reputable breeder. I spent a long time finding my dog. I found reputable breeders had long waiting lists and my idea of health checks was not always theirs. I came across a breeder where I very much doubt the parents names on the reg. cert. were really the parents, another where the stud dog was simply lame and very weak behind although the breeder didn't seem to notice and a breeder who I have a very good idea was registering only alternate litters. To me health with a GSD is paramount. They are a breed where a lot can go wrong and vet's bills have the potential to be high.
I was advised by several people, Moobli being one, to get the pedigree checked out by Chris Hazell. That was some of the best advice I was given. I came away with a reasonable degree of confidence about his health when she declared the litter acceptable.
If this is a breeder I would ask to see or get info on owners of earlier pups from the same parents. It was a revelation when I got in touch with these owners. CC comment that it falls back to genetics is spot on.
Sorry if this is a little pedantic.
Click to expand...

I believe genetics are the single most important factor in an adult dog’s temperament. Genetics really do matter much more than many realise, especially those who believe “there’s no such thing as a bad dog” and “it’s how they are raised”. A good breeder who knows their lines and diligently researches suitable mates for their bitches will be able to predict what kind of temperament, drives etc will be produced, but even then there are a range of personalities and energy levels within one litter.

Socialising used to mean taking pup to every venue you could think of, to meet all different kinds of people, dogs, other animals etc and have puppy interact with them all. Never mind if pup was pushed way over threshold and was terrified. Thankfully more dog trainers (and owners) are looking to do things differently and I tend to agree with socialisation as set out in this article (well worth a read) ...

https://www.collared-scholar.com/more-harm-than-good-3-reasons-why-i-never-socialize-my-puppies/
 
That article looks fascinating- started reading on my lunch break but it’s far too interesting to skim so I shall read properly tonight. I love reading pieces like this, thanks so much for sharing.

ETA we won’t be looking for another puppy until the spring but I’ll be storing up all this useful information for when we feel ready for another one.
 
Moobli said:
I believe genetics are the single most important factor in an adult dog’s temperament. Genetics really do matter much more than many realise, especially those who believe “there’s no such thing as a bad dog” and “it’s how they are raised”. A good breeder who knows their lines and diligently researches suitable mates for their bitches will be able to predict what kind of temperament, drives etc will be produced, but even then there are a range of personalities and energy levels within one litter.

Socialising used to mean taking pup to every venue you could think of, to meet all different kinds of people, dogs, other animals etc and have puppy interact with them all. Never mind if pup was pushed way over threshold and was terrified. Thankfully more dog trainers (and owners) are looking to do things differently and I tend to agree with socialisation as set out in this article (well worth a read) ...

https://www.collared-scholar.com/more-harm-than-good-3-reasons-why-i-never-socialize-my-puppies/
Click to expand...

a great article, thanks. The genetics bit is so true. Merlyn has been a very difficult pup. Worst of any pup I have had in the last 40 plus years yet raised the same as every other one. I went back to the breeder and stud dog owner. The stud dog owner insisted it was my lack of socialisation or incompetence at training. When I contacted other puppy owners I found a different story. I was not the only one struggling. Stud dog owner didn't believe it when I suggested genetics may be the problem.
 
I firmly believe that genetics will always come through in breed specific traits (after all breeders have been selectively breeding these in for generations) and whether a dog has solid or weak nerve. Of course experienced handlers can do a lot to try and shape a dog’s inherent drives or tendencies but that is management as oppose to eradication.

For those that believe “it’s all how they’re raised”, they just need to look at 8 week old Border Collie pups herding hens, ducks, sheep, other dogs without any training, or pointers who naturally point when they see a bird. It’s bred in.

Genetics also impact greatly on nerve and stability in a dog. As a puppy owner it’s hard to have the kind of in-depth knowledge of specific lines and what the various ancestors might bring to the table in terms of drive, nerve, temperament etc but everyone who breeds should be educating themselves on such to ensure they are breeding the best traits (as far as possible) for the type of homes these pups will be entering. Of course nature is fickle and often throws a curveball in to the mix so it’s never going to be an exact science. But if breeders strive to produce strong nerve, stability of temperament, good health and for traits that are true to that breed and are discerning about where their pups are placed and buyers are more aware of the impact breed specific traits have on the behaviour and temperament of certain breeds and choose a breed that suits their lifestyle, there’d be fewer problems and, dare I say it, rescues languishing in kennels.
 
paddy555 said:
a great article, thanks. The genetics bit is so true. Merlyn has been a very difficult pup. Worst of any pup I have had in the last 40 plus years yet raised the same as every other one. I went back to the breeder and stud dog owner. The stud dog owner insisted it was my lack of socialisation or incompetence at training. When I contacted other puppy owners I found a different story. I was not the only one struggling. Stud dog owner didn't believe it when I suggested genetics may be the problem.
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I’m sorry to hear you’re struggling with Merlyn. It can really take away the enjoyment of dog ownership ☹️ It would be interesting to chat to other owners who’ve had pups by the stud dog out of a different bitch as well to see if some of the issues might be coming from the stud’s line or whether it could just be the particular pairing of Merlyn’s parents have produced more difficult dogs.
 
Moobli said:
I believe genetics are the single most important factor in an adult dog’s temperament. Genetics really do matter much more than many realise, especially those who believe “there’s no such thing as a bad dog” and “it’s how they are raised”. A good breeder who knows their lines and diligently researches suitable mates for their bitches will be able to predict what kind of temperament, drives etc will be produced, but even then there are a range of personalities and energy levels within one litter.

Socialising used to mean taking pup to every venue you could think of, to meet all different kinds of people, dogs, other animals etc and have puppy interact with them all. Never mind if pup was pushed way over threshold and was terrified. Thankfully more dog trainers (and owners) are looking to do things differently and I tend to agree with socialisation as set out in this article (well worth a read) ...

https://www.collared-scholar.com/more-harm-than-good-3-reasons-why-i-never-socialize-my-puppies/
Click to expand...

That was fascinating. I know I have a much more simple breed and the main reason I haven’t done socialisation historically is because of laziness, while admiring people on here that do it a lot but I have ended up with easy dogs. I will now keep that article as justification for the future.
 
Clodagh said:
That was fascinating. I know I have a much more simple breed and the main reason I haven’t done socialisation historically is because of laziness, while admiring people on here that do it a lot but I have ended up with easy dogs. I will now keep that article as justification for the future.
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I guess you are joking about justifying the laziness approach but I think there may be a lot in it. I had never done socialisation as such. This was really the first dog I did it with and it never worked. Didn't achieve anything. The simple fact was he couldn't mentally learn and he also didn't want to learn. He had no interest in learning. We used to liken him to someone with autism and he was in a way. Didn't really communicate with people. Certainly not interested in other dogs. Our old dog died when he was 3 months. He showed little interest in her and we thought part of the problem was that he was an only dog. One of the others was in a home with an over friendly, very calm old cocker and it made no difference.

possibly I only had easy dogs but Moobli's videos of Strike showed him as being just the sort of pup I was used to, even now Tay as well.

I'm not convinced socialisation can change a pup that much. Obviously basic learning about the conditions of the modern world but I think there could be a lot of overloading pups.
Years ago we all just got pups and they learnt about life from actually living it in their daily conditions. I took my first GSD to obedience training at around 16 weeks. We lived in a remote area without even a road to our property. The classes were in a pretty rough area in the centre of Plymouth. First time she had ever been in that sort of environment yet she coped well just naturally.
All the pups (GSD only) behaved, we didn't do socialisation at all, we obedience trained them. Part of me wonders if modern pups have somehow changed a little due to breeding and well, genetics.
 
Moobli said:
I’m sorry to hear you’re struggling with Merlyn. It can really take away the enjoyment of dog ownership ☹️ It would be interesting to chat to other owners who’ve had pups by the stud dog out of a different bitch as well to see if some of the issues might be coming from the stud’s line or whether it could just be the particular pairing of Merlyn’s parents have produced more difficult dogs.
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he is not a horrible or nasty dog. He is really, now, becoming very sweet and he is OK with both people and dogs. Burglars may be a different story. He is very possessive of both me and his toys. I wouldn't like to give the impression his temperament is "poor". His attitude, learning and immaturity were the problem, also highly strung.

Chris H was unable to comment on the temperament of that breeding. The stud dog owner described the stud as not being a typical 3 yo. Very very immature, bouncy, daft, tigger on springs.
My understanding had been he was a calm dog. That description was not my description of a 3yo GSD and it is how M is. Very very immature. I think I just didn't expect to have a 50kg puppy for so many years. I had hoped to do a bit of obedience but that is a non starter.
He is now at nearly 21 months how I would expect a 9 month old pup to be, almost.
I went to see a relation. This was the 7th GSD the owners had had. You couldn't have had a more suitable or experienced GSD owner yet they had also been tearing their hair out for exactly the same reasons as I had.

I am not sure how to find other progeny of the stud dog. I cannot ask on FB as the breeder is on there and I am not very popular with them. :rolleyes: I have just had enough hassle.

There have been some other comments about the stud but they have all been health related and what nice healthy pups they are. Which is very true.
To give them their due the breeder did offer to have him back with no quibbles but I had got to love him by then which didn't help.
 
Genetica plays a much bigger part tham many people realise. I bred horses for over 20yrs starting with two mares and then continuing with the daughter of one. I can state categorically that in my experience temperament was passed on. I have found the same in sheep.
Were I to breed horses or dogs in the future (not going to happen) I would be incredibly careful about temperament as well as soundness.
 
paddy555 said:
I guess you are joking about justifying the laziness approach but I think there may be a lot in it.
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Not really, I always just run out of time and energy whern it comes to loading the pup up and going to a town or anything. Ffee is not well socialised (youngest) yet she will sit on command when a courier or someone comes in, she wouldn't want them to touch her. That will do. :-)
 
Clodagh said:
Not really, I always just run out of time and energy whern it comes to loading the pup up and going to a town or anything. Ffee is not well socialised (youngest) yet she will sit on command when a courier or someone comes in, she wouldn't want them to touch her. That will do. :-)
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I think getting a dog used to experiences that are relevant to the owner/family is what matters.🙂 For example, I very much doubt I will ever use public transport with my dog in tow, so I never exposed her to it as pup. Getting her used to travelling in car was important to me, so every day as a pup she’d come out for a little drive.
 
I don’t think I did the whole socialisation thing with mine as such, just took the puppy along to wherever it would be expected to go when it was an adult. So in the car, to the pub etc and as a result I have a well rounded dog. I didn’t care much if mine are dog friendly and prefer dogs that ignore others which mine happily do.
I do allow them to greet the odd dog but I don’t see the need for it.

I also had one with a very weak temperament, no matter what I did she sadly couldn’t cope with life. She was nervous from the day she came home sadly and it didn’t get any better despite expert help, advice and even medication at one point.
 
You can generally tell how interested a puppy is in humans or other dogs when you select them, if they want to be off exploring independently and getting away from you or their siblings, they are generally not going to make an obedience prospect, they have to want to be with you for that. I should have learned that when my own dog was toddling off across the fields on his own in the opposite direction with a faraway look in his eye as a baby :p

Paddy was the stud imported from a low country? It's pretty easy to see the other litters on Champdogs if it's the one I'm thinking of. He's a mix of working and show lines so high drive but with a lack of concentration and highly strung wouldn't surprise me too much, especially when bred back to a mostly show line female. Apologies if I have the wrong one as it was a while ago. PM if you prefer or if you want me to run through anything training-wise.
A lot of lines are late maturing, so I wouldn't get too disheartened.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
The author's idea of socialisation and mine are very different. I want my dogs to go out and about and concentrate on me, I certainly don't want them to start trying to play with other dogs but I do want them to respond in a friendly way to unknown but non-threatening people. Taking them out and about helps with what I want from my pups/adult dogs.
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I think you’re misunderstanding tbh. The author DOES take her pups out and about all over but works hard on engagement with them so she becomes their focus rather than the rest of the environment, other people, dogs etc.
 
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