Socialising a nervous dog?

Good advice already but if you're moving to a bigger place I would just say do scent work and agility and other sorts of training at your own place or in very small groups, manage the situation and accept that she doesn't have the genetic background or mental strength to deal with things that she finds stressful. From the sounds of it, it is just not there and nothing will put it there, so you have to help her.
I've seen dogs like this be brought to groups I've been at in the hope that something will change, and my advice would be to take them home...I've seen far too many near misses. Not fair on dogs or humans.
If she's happy at home, within reason, I'd let her stay there and be happy. The world is probably just too big and scary for her to be able to process.
 
Thanks all- I didn't want to turn this thread back into a help my dog is awful thread as I've already had one of those but I appreciate all the ideas and tips!

Cc she's happy in her bubble with her toys and her brother. She likes a quiet walk with nobody interacting with her and she is calm at training as she knows nobody will approach her. Besides that she just can't cope!

I used to take them to work with me but don't now as she's too stressed and it wasn't fair.

I know deep down she isn't fixable, improbable possibly but she won't be normal!
 
She's not awful at all, none of it is her fault. What we see as the 'ideal' life for a dog, is sometimes that dog's worst nightmare. You know her limits, personally I wouldn't push her past them right now.
 
No she isn't horrible at all CC I am being harsh, she actually a sweetheart but she acts before she thinks and that's what gets her into trouble.

I am going for the relaxed approach over the next few weeks and see how we go. Managed to get her out for 1.5 hours today with no reactions (bar one poodle lady who wouldn't put the little devils on a lead!)
She's also spent 2 hours trying to get some treats from a kong, small steps I think.

I've been researching the more excersise thing but it's proving difficult as there's no way I can really get her out more than I do. I am looking into a dog walker but she is seriously fear aggressive to visitors so anybody entering the house when I'm not there needs balls of steel to get through the door!

Maybe she would be better off left alone at home than stressed by a stranger in the house even if it means less walks.
 
Whilst the ideal would be to get the dog more exercise out in the big wide world, any physical exertion will help to produce the feel good factor via endorphins, so what about a treadmill at home? Alternatively, taking the dog swimming?
 
A treadmill could be an idea if I could ever get her near it, just a human one?

Swimming is a no go as I wouldn't get her in the door of any of the hydro places and she wouldn't tolerate anyone touching her. I also wouldn't let her off lead to swim in ponds or at the beach as if someone appeared she'd be off!
 
When you give black coffee to a drunk you don't get a sober person, you get a wide-awake drunk. By the same token, if you give short bursts of high energy exercise to a neurotic dog, you don't get a calm dog, you get a super-fit fear-biter.
I am not of this opinion that these poorly bred dogs should be kept away from society, that is not what these dogs were bred for. Actually they were probably bred for stupid colours and half-arsed protection work. Doors get left open and you can't muzzle 24/7.
What she really needs is habituation and loads of it; methodical, structured and controlled with a conspicuous leader. I get that you took her on as a favour but I think you underestimated the time and effort involved and it has to come from you. I recently heard of a behaviourist being mauled because they were trying to prove they weren't a threat to the dog (GSD). You can't be passive, these poorly bred dogs don't have the temperament to take charge so YOU have to.
You're embarrassed by her lunging at people in public, how did she get to that stage without correction?
GSD's are the easiest dogs in the world to train. They are also the quickest to develop/exhibit neurotic behaviour when left to their own devices. Do you really have the time to devote to this? It's not just socialisation sadly.
 
Fellewell said:
When you give black coffee to a drunk you don't get a sober person, you get a wide-awake drunk. By the same token, if you give short bursts of high energy exercise to a neurotic dog, you don't get a calm dog, you get a super-fit fear-biter.
I am not of this opinion that these poorly bred dogs should be kept away from society, that is not what these dogs were bred for. Actually they were probably bred for stupid colours and half-arsed protection work. Doors get left open and you can't muzzle 24/7.
What she really needs is habituation and loads of it; methodical, structured and controlled with a conspicuous leader. I get that you took her on as a favour but I think you underestimated the time and effort involved and it has to come from you. I recently heard of a behaviourist being mauled because they were trying to prove they weren't a threat to the dog (GSD). You can't be passive, these poorly bred dogs don't have the temperament to take charge so YOU have to.
You're embarrassed by her lunging at people in public, how did she get to that stage without correction?
GSD's are the easiest dogs in the world to train. They are also the quickest to develop/exhibit neurotic behaviour when left to their own devices. Do you really have the time to devote to this? It's not just socialisation sadly.
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Nothing positive or helpful in this post, with regards to lunging comment- how the dog got there is irrelevant it's t this point.
How would you deal with things?
 
Believe me, I have corrected her in the past. We've tried everything but she's terrified. If you are too dominant she shuts down. She responds to calm quiet handling not any adverse methods.

She got there by being terrified of people, she learnt that barking made people back off and it's turned into a cycle as she thinks it works...and she would be right. I can't just force people to stand still and take her abuse though.

We have worked with her extensively but she isn't an easy dog,3 behaviourists have confirmed that. She's like a GSD on speed and I know GSD inside out, she's not got a GSD temperament at all. She isn't my first dog and I'm not one of those clueless idiots who buys a puppy from a backyard breeder as she looked fluffy. She was sick, I took her on and she will need lifelong management hence I can't rehome her.

My father is an old school trainer who has had shepherds all his life. He turned around an unruly one I fostered in days by being calm but assertive. He tried to handle this bitch though and although she did ask he asked (i.e. Didn't bark) she was visably stressed and uncomfortable, to me she's more likley to bite someone in this state than any other. I think an old school trainer may get her to behave but she would be a ticking time bomb as she will never be reformed. She could get out of the house and bite someone but the same could be said for any number of dogs really, if anything she is safer than someone deluded as we treat our home like Fort Knox!
 
It's really, really hard to train a dog that isn't clear in the head through stress. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it and the OP wouldn't be in the position she is in now.
 
CorvusCorax said:
It's really, really hard to train a dog that isn't clear in the head through stress. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it and the OP wouldn't be in the position she is in now.
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Absolutely, for many months I was convinced my boy couldn't smell or see very much as well as being deaf, he never responded to vibrations or all the things that you would expect him to. Looking at him now I find it hard to believe I ever thought that, he can recognise who is on the other side of the garden wall from smell (and tell me specifically), smells cats a mile off, and until recently when his sight really did start reducing you would never have known he was deaf in the house. Stress accounts for a huge amount and is vastly underrated.
 
"It's really, really hard to train a dog that isn't clear in the head through stress. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it and the OP wouldn't be in the position she is in now."

This. To desensitise a dog it must be kept under threshold, once it is reacting it is incapable of taking anything in and learning. My IMDT trainer took my reactive bitch through a systematic desensitisation programme tailored to her reactions. He sometimes spent an hour getting her to relax when he moved a foot just one step to the side, he built on this in tiny increments until he could walk, sit down, stand up and walk again without eliciting tension in the dog. This bitch is now a confident and super friendly animal with anybody who is prepared to use dog friendly body language (people who are not willing to learn are not allowed near her). She is wonderful with all my friends and family including my four year old grandson. She watches me and if I am relaxed she is. If I am not she reverts and will try to get at the person (she is muzzled and on lead anywhere public).

She was scared but she is no shrinking violet and was also ready to attack first and ask questions later. Flooding her or telling her off would have ramped up the aggression. She can now be in a crowd of people or close to other on lead dogs with no problems. She can also behave totally normally around new dogs once they have been introduced quietly. It can be done, but very few behaviourists have practical knowledge of this kind of extreme and painstaking work. She will never be a dog you can have a relaxed walk with but she comes with us on holidays, goes on on lead group walks and races and plays with her doggy friends. She will now sit and stare at me automatically when a strange dog appears.

Please feel free to pm me OP. I am in the south so my trainer is a long way from you but he knows a large number of people and might be able to recommend somebody near you.
 
Laura I really think Cayla and her partner would help enormously and she does think outside the box, her wealth of knowledge is phenomenal and her experience of working with reactive dogs is exceptional.
 
Laura2408 said:
Believe me, I have corrected her in the past. We've tried everything but she's terrified. If you are too dominant she shuts down. She responds to calm quiet handling not any adverse methods.

She got there by being terrified of people, she learnt that barking made people back off and it's turned into a cycle as she thinks it works...and she would be right. I can't just force people to stand still and take her abuse though.

……..
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OP, just a collection of random thoughts which may not be of any help, I realise!;

I can't print up all the salient and interesting points which you've raised because this post would go on for ever. It would be near impossible for any clear analyses to be given without seeing the dog AND you in an environment where she's likely to display her unwanted behaviour, so just a few suggestions;

We can really only generalise when discussing the mental make-up of any living creature, 'SO' Generally, when dogs behave as yours, it has little to do with past memories as most dogs are fairly forgiving of our 'mistakes'. Mostly those dogs which seem unable to fit in and be as we would have them, have the problem routed in their genetic make-up though this can easily be reinforced by our well intended reactions. If we can master it, the trick is to be one jump ahead and present a situation to the dog BEFORE it reacts to the perceived threat. Easier said than done, I realise!

Your previous comment that your dog reacts before she 'thinks' is I believe, a mistake. Dogs rarely think before they act, and certainly in the case of those which are nervous, 'reaction' is their only tool.

If you had say 5 other dogs living in the house, then you and they would form a pack, of sorts. I understand that with our bright new-wave and modern thinking, the pack principle is dismissed, but it clearly works with hounds so would with those dogs, even on a one-to-one basis.

In short, you will be unlikely to make progress until you manage to establish the roll of pack leader, which at the moment, you aren't, it seems. I strongly suspect that you need a radicle re-think of your strategy. With dogs such as yours, violence simple doesn't work, we know that, but with authority stamped on your relationship with the dog, setting boundaries, you may well make progress.

Another point, perhaps the most crucial when it comes to training any dog and especially one displaying the behaviour traits which yours does, is 'consistancy'. Even to the point where being consistently wrong is to be preferred to inconsistency.

Teaching a dog that it has nothing to fear is best started from the outset, but given that it may very well be the case that your dog started life with a diffident approach, so it would seem that she believes from her experiences that she's been right all along.

I've rather rambled on, but it's an interesting topic and having had one or two dogs such as yours through my hands, I'm convinced that if you can reach the stage where you can engineer your authority, so you may make progress. Sadly though, altering the mental make-up of a dog which has serious hang-ups is rarely totally successful because dogs learn to mistrust long before and far sooner than they learn to 'believe' us. All so often, dogs learn to trust us when they accept our authority. I strongly suspect that you're trying to reason with a dog which simply doesn't understand your intentions.

Laura, you've obviously given your situation considerable thought, and that's to be applauded. Sadly though, without seeing you and your dog together, clear and worthwhile advice would be difficult. None the less, I wish you well!

Alec.
 
Thank you Alec, really interesting thoughts thank you.

It's hard to explain but she was a nervous wreck from day one. I have photos of her at 5 weeks old and she is cowering to the floor with her tail between her legs. The day she came home she hid under the sofa for weeks and this was her 'space' until she couldn't fit any more.
The first time she met another dog bar mine she yelped, screamed and planted herself to the floor. I took her to puppy classes but she hid under the chairs at the back and wouldn't speak to anyone. She had no interest in the other puppies or people, she's only ever wanted to be close to family or my other dog- anyone else she is indifferent too or is outwardly aggressive too. If another dog approaches her she will run and yelp as though she's been murdered but will turn and bite if she can't outrun it. It's not uncommon for her to express her anal glands as she's reacting which I believe is fear.

She's also very touch sensitive, she yelps in anticipation of me accidentally standing on her tail if I walk near her even though it's only happened a few times before. This is due to the amount of medical procedures she's undergone I think as she's used to people touching her and it hurting.

I agree with your point that I need to be assertive with her. It's a hard one as she's very well behaved at home. She does exactly as I ask when I ask, she lives with cats/dogs/small animals and a baby and has never so much as looked at anyone wrongly. She literally sleeps her day away and wants the odd stroke-nothing out of the ordinary. She is very responsive to me and knows as soon as I say no that I mean it, she has never challenged anyone in the family. She annoys the other dog but if he tells her off she accepts it and backs down straight away!
I can touch her food and toys etc and she is totally fine with that, she waits to get in and out of the car and for her tea. I can also handle her anywhere without fuss. All in all she is a really well behaved and trained girl as long as she's in her happy state.

Bring a trigger in though and she's a different dog. Everything I say or do goes out of the window. Afterwards it's like she knows it was a mistake as she will often cower or shy away from me as if she is about to be told off (which I've never done!)
If I have strangers to the home she listens when I tell her no but it's like she can't help herself but to react. If I was to stand over her or something like that she probably would shut up but I don't want to intimidate her when she's already frightened.

I know this post may make no sense as it sounds like I'm talking about 2 seperate dogs. On one hand she is a lovely sweet happy girl and the other a nervous wreck. For example today we had a lovely 2 hour walk with some off lead time with some friends dogs and she spend the rest of the day snuggled up at my feet...she's not miserable 90% of the time but it's that last 10% when she sees a threat that's the problem!
 
dollyanna said:
Speaking from my own experiences of a severely reactive and fearful dog (came to me at 2.5yrs) I would not encourage you to go on socialising walks/group walks without carefully introducing each dog first and making sure she is happy with each of them, and even then the focus of the walk would be her working with me, not trying to get her to go and play with the others when she doesn't have the skills to deal with that.
I would also do a lot of work to build her self confidence, I find clicker work really useful for this, shaping, trick training, really anything, just getting her to feel safe in trying new things out and being rewarded for it, it made such an amazing difference to my boy.
I know very well what it is like to live with a dog such as yours, it isn't easy, and the first few years I tried so hard to socialise and train so we could go places and deal with things. We succeeded, we could compete at agility, we could walk through a town safely etc etc but it took such a toll on us both. He would literally need 2 weeks of staying more or less housebound after a weekend away at agility in order to let his adrenaline settle and be able to cope with everyday stuff again. It did improve, but I have to say it improved much more when we stopped doing agility, group walks, walking anywhere stressful, trying to socialise him. I just accepted the things he would rather not do, and we stopped doing them where possible. This meant that on the odd occasion we did need to wak through towns, walk with other dogs/attend a large show, cope with crowds etc he could do it much more easily, and recovered far quicker. These days there are few restrictions on what we do/where we go but I am strict on which people he mets that he doesn't know - if he doesn't need to meet them and I don't trust them to absolutely follow instructions (you get a feel for this, my biggest red flag is those who say "oh but dogs love me" - that's an instant lifetime ban!) then he doesn't meet them, end of. If he has to cope with a situation then he doesn't also meet people - we have done a lot of demos at huge dog shows which he loves to do but coping with the crowd around him getting to and from the ring is enough, he is happy, but meeting strangers as well is too much, so he doesn't.
I guess I am trying to say there are probably going to be aspects you can't change, and she will possibly never be the dog you can take everywhere, but there are holiday places for these dogs, there are ways of managing them that limit the restrictions, and it is possible to have an incredible relationship with them, but accepting them for who they are is the first step. If you have worked with behaviourists and trainers who are half decent all this time then much of it is likely to be her personality - we can't all be social butterflies!
As for her being left out, my boy asks to be "put to bed" for a rest because being around too many people all day is just too tiring. He is much happier being given the chance to switch off by going in his crate and being left in peace. I feel he is missing out, but I know that if we tried to keep him with us all the time then he would get very tired, then stressy, then actively cranky. So he has time out, whenever he needs it, and he has periods almost every day where he is shut away to just sleep and be on his own. That is how he likes it - just the two of us, he will sleep near me, but more than me in the house and he needs to be given the space to sleep otherwise he doesn't switch off. She isn't being left out if she doesn't enjoy being there - just make sure she has enough mental and physical stimulation to keep her happy and able to rest.
And for those who say they can't live with a dog like that because they can't possibly be happy, you should meet my boy (but you won't, because he'd rather not). He is the epitomy of joy itself, the happiest boy in the world, he just needs the world to be how he understands it and not the human one others tried to inflict on him. That's just fine by me, because if he hadn't shown me what he has then my world would be infinitely less enjoyable.
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I've just read your post quite slowly so hopefully I haven't missed anything but basically you only do with your dog what he can cope with, bliddy brilliant.
The older I get the more I realise animals are just like us, some people cope some don't and it's the same with dogs.
I think I'm like your dog, once my stress levels go up they take ages to come down, if they're managed and don't get too bad I find it fairly easy to get back on an even keel.
I'm not sure if your advice would be something OP could/would act on but it's refreshing to know there is a different approach.
 
LD&S said:
I've just read your post quite slowly so hopefully I haven't missed anything but basically you only do with your dog what he can cope with, bliddy brilliant.
The older I get the more I realise animals are just like us, some people cope some don't and it's the same with dogs.
I think I'm like your dog, once my stress levels go up they take ages to come down, if they're managed and don't get too bad I find it fairly easy to get back on an even keel.
I'm not sure if your advice would be something OP could/would act on but it's refreshing to know there is a different approach.
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I am not disgreeing with this post, I know nothing about dogs like these hyper aggressive/reactive types but the trouble is does it not become a vicious circle? You can't exercise them as they can't leave the house so they get more uptight and stressed? Or am I putting my emotions and thoughts onto a dog? This is an interested question, not a having a go!
 
I would encourage you to work on the things you can change, and accept the things you can’t.
The trick is learning to know the difference.

Some very wise words taken from an excellent article I recently read on the role of genetics in behaviour.

Genetics play a huge role in the skills our dogs are born with as well as the temperament and personality they possess. Dogs like yours Laura are just not genetically equipped to cope with many of the modern day pressures and stresses that dogs with stronger genetic material can stand. Personally I would look at keeping her stress levels low, try not to push her over threshold in terms of strangers, strange dogs etc. Try to exercise her brain as well as her body - scent work (finding hidden toys, treats) or tracking (following human footprints and disturbed earth) is ideal as most dogs enjoy using their nose and can be performed in your garden and house. If she is not very driven in terms of working for a toy, build her drive and focus on a particular toy. Buy a specific training toy (a small leather tuggy is usually a favourite with GSDs and small enough to fit in your pocket). Only bring the toy out for short bursts of fun play and interaction, then before she gets bored put it away again. Build this over time so she looks forward to seeing this particular toy come out - and then you can start using it as a reward in training sessions and, depending on how focused she gets on it, it can help bring her attention back to you and away from distractions when out on walks. All this initial training and play should be away from distractions, including your other dog.

Studies in canine behavioral genetics have consistently shown that traits such as fearfulness, impulsivity, problem-solving ability, working drive, and even tendencies toward aggression are strongly influenced by breeding. Socialisation and early learning can certainly help to sway things in one direction or another, but these forces are operating on a pre-existing genetic blueprint.

That is not to say that behaviour cannot be molded - to an extent. But you can only work with what you already have. You cannot create a bombproof, sociable animal from a pup created from genetically weak nerves.

As you appear to have a pup from a not so great background who is struggling with behavior problems despite your best efforts, don’t beat yourself up! Sometimes these problems can only be managed and not cured. Too often we are told that there are no bad dogs, only bad owners - but this is simply not accurate. That is not to say the dog is inherently bad - just that the genetics in her breeding mean she will never be a sociable, bombproof, take anywhere type of a dog. Accept her for what she is and manage her behaviour carefully so that she has a good quality of life and cannot be a nuisance to other people and their dogs. You can do a lot to help her live a safer, happier life - through continued training and careful management, you can help build her confidence and teach better coping skills to handle stress with the help of the professionals you are currently working with and of course these types of dogs can also have incredibly strong bonds with their owners.
 
Clodagh my trainer told me to think of it as a cup of water. Every little trigger adds some water until eventually the cup becomes full and spills over.

It's quite evident when she is walked that this theory is true in a sense. So she can walk past a dog and I can see she's a little unsettled but she manages. If she hasn't had time in between triggers to calm down the second dog will perhaps make her bark once or twice. If a third thing comes last, say a cyclist before she has had time to calm down it will result in a huge reaction which will take her forever to recover from.

I try and give her lots of calm time and try my best to avoid things which will stress her but unfortunately nowhere is people or dog free sadly! we are moving to somewhere much more rural so hopefully this will help with this.
 
Sorry cross posted workingGSD. Thank you, honestly the past two dogs I've owned have been enough to make me give up with dogs alltogether. My husband had made me promise the next one will be from the best breeder in th UK!

She is very carefully managed, we are moving somewhere which makes keeping her safe much easier so I'm looking forward to that!

I will contact the recommendations on the thread also. I am happy with my current trainer and didn't want to confuse matters but a second opinion can't hurt.

On a brighter note she managed a walk with no reactions at all today so perhaps a new positive outlook is rubbing off!
 
I would seriously consider prescription drugs. My previous rescue greyhound was in a terrible mental state when I got her. Totally institutionalised after racing successfully until 4 years old. She was fine in a kennel environment, but couldn't cope once rehomed. Was in a permanent state of anxiety outwith my home, and showed some fear aggression towards other dogs & people who approached her. She was in such a state that she seemed not able to learn anything. Almost in permanent 'fight' mode. She was medicated with amitriptyline & gabapentin as also had back pain from an injury. These seemed to enable her to think more rationally and she learnt eventually to cope with the outside world, and actually enjoyed going to new places etc. My vet referred us to a vet who was a pain specialist and behaviourist first, and she came to my property to examine her & witness her reaction to the outside world and prescribed the drugs. Xanax etc. made her worse. I know some people frown upon medicating dogs, but it really helped her. I persevered for about 6 months with two behaviourists, getting absolutely nowhere, before seeking more help. Where are you based?
 
Thank you Bud, unfortunately we looked at those medications but she has a heart condition and also another condition which can be seriously effected by nausea and vomiting hence the vet ruled it out based on those.
I can discuss it with the vet again but it would be risky I think.

I am in Northumberland however am moving much further north in the next month or so!
 
I have read this post with interest, as always looking to learn, and I so like to know "the ins and outs of a ducks are", according to my mum.

I can't offer any advice, but it has made me think. We have a cat who has always been strange. She is a tiny thing, people mistake her for a kitten even now at 14. Sometimes me and OH have conversations about her saying things like, if she was human, she would be classed as this that or the other. Could your girl have a canine equivalent of autism? Is there such a thing?

I'm sorry if I'm seeming flippant, am really not, am generally interested.
 
TheresaW, the Jesuits say "Give me a child to the age of 7 and that will be how the adult is" and there's some truth in that. Just as our personalities are often mapped out at an early age either through our genetic makeup or the early learning influences, or both interacting with each other, so that's how it generally is for animals too.

I always find that if I take in or breed a puppy, by the time that it's 4 months of age, the traits which separate it from others are already formed, and that's why I never do anything restrictive with puppies as I want to see what I will have to work with in the future. Mostly, it seems to work too!

OP, having read more of your posts, I think that you've made remarkable progress with a puppy which was always most likely to display 'curious' behaviour. That said, I think it highly unlikely that you'll ever completely eradicate the defensive and so aggressive aspect of her view of what she doesn't seem able to understand. When attack is the best means of defence and it becomes engrained, then it's likely to be there to a greater or lesser degree, for ever. NOBODY will be more pleased than I to be wrong! Good luck.

Alec.
 
twiggy2 said:
Nothing positive or helpful in this post, with regards to lunging comment- how the dog got there is irrelevant it's t this point.
How would you deal with things?
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You're entitled to your opinion but she's had the dog since it was six months, it's now 2 years. In what universe is it acceptable for a dog in a pet home to lunge at strangers? I'd argue that this failure to correct is totally relevant.
The most crucial point here, and the one that prompted my response, is in post #21, 1st line of para 3. That tells me everything I need to know about this set up.
 
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