Socialising a pup

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Patchworkpony

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Given that it is really important to socialise a puppy as soon as it can go out I am really struggling. Not many puppy parties or classes down here and they are all fully booked until October and from what I've heard some are not that well run anyway. I intend to take my pup out and about as much as possible and introduce her to other dogs in several of the many dog friendly hotels round here etc. BUT I am terrified that we may encounter a rough or vicious dog that will harm and frighten her. Any ideas on how to turn her into a confident and happy dog without encountering any disasters on the way. It seems that there is always an element of ignorant owners, with badly behaved dogs, who can in a single stroke undo months of dedicated confidence building.
 
Socialising a dog to me is exposing them to lots of different environmental stimuli and controlled introductions to other dogs. Not a free for all where they are allowed to run up and play with (or get slam dunked by) whatever other dog they come into contact with.

PS if you are already terrified of a bad experience and are expecting a disaster, you're not setting yourself up for success. You control all interactions and don't *allow* any disasters to happen.
 
CorvusCorax said:
Socialising a dog to me is exposing them to lots of different environmental stimuli and controlled introductions to other dogs. Not a free for all where they are allowed to run up and play with (or get slam dunked by) whatever other dog they come into contact with.

PS if you are already terrified of a bad experience and are expecting a disaster, you're not setting yourself up for success. You control all interactions and don't *allow* any disasters to happen.
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Totally agree with everything you say and it certainly WILL be controlled but disasters do happen and you can't always control them. A couple of weeks ago I watched an elderly lady on sticks walking out of a hotel entrance with her very well behaved spaniel suddenly 'attacked' by a full grown lab that was completely out of control. Owner of lab was drinking outside and was totally indifferent to the behaviour of his dog. Old lady landed on the ground how would you have 'control all interactions and don't *allow* any disasters to happen' if you had been her.
 
I have a 18 week old lab boarding with me, it is the final week of three, socialising has consisted of;
Meeting and being with my dog,
Travelling in the van,
Seeing/meeting sheep, cattle, horses, ducks, yard guard dogs/working collies- not playing with them and meeting through boundaries such as gates run fencing and many of the dogs are not used to being on lead and/or can be unpredictable with other dogs, I think it is important that they do not grow up scared of vocal dogs but learn to ignore/give them space,
Sitting at a bench/bus stop at the park/next to the road
Walking over the A12
Coming to work and being crated whilst I do a short work shift,
Seeing large yard machinery working,
Walking with other dogs but not playing,
Today we took the short bus ride to town and sat in the town centre for half an hour,
A visit to cats protection to see dog confident cats through the cage boundaries,
Meet man an motorised scooter, people with walking sticks etc but mostly and more importantly as he is a very confident pup, we spent time ignoring people and being ignored by them,
Tomorrow's plan is to loiter at the park and ride during rush hour for a while.
An aggressive encounter can ruin any dog puppy or adult and the best way to avoid this is to get maximum exposure and lots of positive experiences in the bank so a bad experience sets the dog back rather than destroying it's confidence.
 
Definitely get the pup out and about to lots of different environments. Unfortunately you can't control other peoples dogs, but you can control your own! Try not to let her bound over to other dogs too much which might cause a reaction. Teach her a 'watch me' command so if she's getting over excited you can ask her to sit and watch you and all her attention is on you, then the other dog can come closer and they can say hello (or just pass by) in a nice calm manner.
If you want to go to a puppy party try and seek out a well organised one! we never took the whippet but I did do some research. Some will just be a free for all where confident dogs will bound around and nervous dogs will be overwhelmed (avoid these). But some will have confident dog and nervous dog play time that is controlled, so confident dogs don't over-face a quieter pup.

Try not to be nervous about it! Your nerves will pass on to the dogs :) And most dogs aren't vicious beasts :) Do any friends or family have dogs? Introducing to them first can be a good idea as you can control everything. We did this with our pup and then let him greet out on walks. I don't even think we did too much special with him. If other dog was on the lead and seemed curious I would ask if they could greet calmly.
 
I can go along with the socialising bit in that I understand the reasoning behind it, but 'as soon as you can' can all so often lead to disaster. Pups need to experience the world as a drip-feed. They need ever more testing environments to enable the owner to 'manage' the situation rather than have the pup learn about the negatives at too early an age.

Recently I sat in on a puppy class which was orchestrated (wrong word?) by a veterinary practice. It was complete and utter chaos with shy pups being mugged and the bullies having their take on life reinforced. Pups need to learn about their world once training has started, once they are prepared to listen to the human, and socialising is all so often not really understood. With racehorses, for instance, do we take foals to race meetings to acclimatise them to the event, and possibly risk blowing their minds? No, we only take young horses out and about when there's a semblance of control established and that's how we should consider young pups too, I believe.

Alec.
 
I agree with Alec in that no pup should ever be over faced, it takes as long as it takes as each puppy is different.
Also that the puppy should be walking fairly well on lead as in not a bumble puppy flitting all over the place but walking on one side of you before going out and about.
They should also have a reliable sit and down and know their name.
I don't teach a watch command until much later as I want the pup watching what it is am aiming to expose them to, you also risk the pup being taken by surprise when things come up behind them when they are focused on you.
I just reward calm behaviour, resting and observing without reacting is perfect.
 
Have you got friends nearby with well-behaved dogs you can take your pup to meet? That is how I started socialising both mine, so I knew they were interacting with dogs who would behave in an appropriate way. I also planned our walks to go to places and be at times when we were less likely to meet loads of off-lead dogs.
 
twiggy2 said:
I have a 18 week old lab boarding with me, it is the final week of three, socialising has consisted of;
Meeting and being with my dog,
Travelling in the van,
Seeing/meeting sheep, cattle, horses, ducks, yard guard dogs/working collies- not playing with them and meeting through boundaries such as gates run fencing and many of the dogs are not used to being on lead and/or can be unpredictable with other dogs, I think it is important that they do not grow up scared of vocal dogs but learn to ignore/give them space,
Sitting at a bench/bus stop at the park/next to the road
Walking over the A12
Coming to work and being crated whilst I do a short work shift,
Seeing large yard machinery working,
Walking with other dogs but not playing,
Today we took the short bus ride to town and sat in the town centre for half an hour,
A visit to cats protection to see dog confident cats through the cage boundaries,
Meet man an motorised scooter, people with walking sticks etc but mostly and more importantly as he is a very confident pup, we spent time ignoring people and being ignored by them,
Tomorrow's plan is to loiter at the park and ride during rush hour for a while.
An aggressive encounter can ruin any dog puppy or adult and the best way to avoid this is to get maximum exposure and lots of positive experiences in the bank so a bad experience sets the dog back rather than destroying it's confidence.
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Great advice - thank you so much. Long time since I had a pup so one just needs a refresher course.
 
Amye said:
Definitely get the pup out and about to lots of different environments. Unfortunately you can't control other peoples dogs, but you can control your own! Try not to let her bound over to other dogs too much which might cause a reaction. Teach her a 'watch me' command so if she's getting over excited you can ask her to sit and watch you and all her attention is on you, then the other dog can come closer and they can say hello (or just pass by) in a nice calm manner.
If you want to go to a puppy party try and seek out a well organised one! we never took the whippet but I did do some research. Some will just be a free for all where confident dogs will bound around and nervous dogs will be overwhelmed (avoid these). But some will have confident dog and nervous dog play time that is controlled, so confident dogs don't over-face a quieter pup.

Try not to be nervous about it! Your nerves will pass on to the dogs :) And most dogs aren't vicious beasts :) Do any friends or family have dogs? Introducing to them first can be a good idea as you can control everything. We did this with our pup and then let him greet out on walks. I don't even think we did too much special with him. If other dog was on the lead and seemed curious I would ask if they could greet calmly.
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Thanks for all that - I'm not nervous just determined someone's dog isn't going to hurt ours. A much loved spaniel puppy was killed last year walking on the moor when another dog can from nowhere and attacked it.
 
Alec Swan said:
I can go along with the socialising bit in that I understand the reasoning behind it, but 'as soon as you can' can all so often lead to disaster. Pups need to experience the world as a drip-feed. They need ever more testing environments to enable the owner to 'manage' the situation rather than have the pup learn about the negatives at too early an age.

Recently I sat in on a puppy class which was orchestrated (wrong word?) by a veterinary practice. It was complete and utter chaos with shy pups being mugged and the bullies having their take on life reinforced. Pups need to learn about their world once training has started, once they are prepared to listen to the human, and socialising is all so often not really understood. With racehorses, for instance, do we take foals to race meetings to acclimatise them to the event, and possibly risk blowing their minds? No, we only take young horses out and about when there's a semblance of control established and that's how we should consider young pups too, I believe.

Alec.
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Brilliant advice this is just what we used to do with our foals. Everyone says you should go to puppy training etc. but I never have in the past and quite frankly I'm beginning to think most are a free for all.
 
twiggy2 said:
I agree with Alec in that no pup should ever be over faced, it takes as long as it takes as each puppy is different.
Also that the puppy should be walking fairly well on lead as in not a bumble puppy flitting all over the place but walking on one side of you before going out and about.
They should also have a reliable sit and down and know their name.
I don't teach a watch command until much later as I want the pup watching what it is am aiming to expose them to, you also risk the pup being taken by surprise when things come up behind them when they are focused on you.
I just reward calm behaviour, resting and observing without reacting is perfect.
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Thank you - such sensible advice and pretty well what I intended to do.
 
TGM said:
Have you got friends nearby with well-behaved dogs you can take your pup to meet? That is how I started socialising both mine, so I knew they were interacting with dogs who would behave in an appropriate way. I also planned our walks to go to places and be at times when we were less likely to meet loads of off-lead dogs.
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Yes I have a friend with a very kind, quiet GR and she can come over and play with the pup. I intend to walk more in remote places or where dogs are on the lead, certainly until she gets older.
 
Patchworkpony said:
Thanks for all that - I'm not nervous just determined someone's dog isn't going to hurt ours. A much loved spaniel puppy was killed last year walking on the moor when another dog can from nowhere and attacked it.
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Oh no that's awful! I'm so sorry to hear that.

To slightly alter what I said, i do agree with Twiggy that puppies need to observe what's going on in a calm manner. What I meant with the 'watch me' command is, if the puppy is being over exuberant at something you can get their attention back on you so they're not bouncing around after another dog. Doesn't have to be a watch me (that was just the first thing that popped into my head) just getting them to sit calmly and not overreact :)
 
All this advice is sound common sense that I can identify with. I just felt guilty about not doing formal socialising but now realise it's not for me anyway, so thanks guys for giving me the confidence to do it my way and ignore the vets etc. who say you MUST get your puppy into a class. After all why should I - I've been training animals on my own successfully for decades and I do especially love Alec's idea of drip feeding.
 
The right age? All dogs will be different that we know, but socialising starts as soon as the pup can go out in public. Slowly and daily they see and smell different aspects to the world which they will encounter. It all gets logged and hopefully so does the acceptance of what's witnessed.

I wouldn't expect others to follow my example, but I generally don't do anything with a pup until it's 5-6 months old. It learns it's name, to come when it's called and it learns where its bed is, but that's about it. Life for a young pup should be free of pressure and I NEVER apply the screw of discipline until the pup is old enough to accept that it 'must' comply with my wishes.

Having just read the above para, I wondered if it would be the same for a house living dog and one in kennels and accept without question, that pups living indoors, if only for the owner's sanity, need to comply with our wishes a little sooner!

Patchwork, I suspect that you're overthinking and worrying needlessly. Take your time and if it will wait until tomorrow, then let it wait, you'll have a more confident dog, eventually!

Alec.
 
A lot of things like environmental sensitivity and reactivity to other dogs/people and prey drive/working instinct are genetic. That's not to say you shouldn't put the work in, but you won't see what is really in the dog until 12-18 months old anyway. Obviously pups have traits and that is why we pick them but what comes from the ancestry is also hugely important.
 
Alec Swan said:
Patchwork, I suspect that you're overthinking and worrying needlessly. Take your time and if it will wait until tomorrow, then let it wait, you'll have a more confident dog, eventually!

Alec.
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You're quite right Alec - I think it's age thing. When I was younger I just got on and dealt with it - including some very difficult horses that went on to win big prizes. I shall take a chill pill and not overthink. Thank you.
 
Genetics do play a huge part, pups socialisation starts from birth though, the sense of touch, temperature variations, mum, litter mates, smells that come in with mum from outside, tastes, owners, visitors, new homes, vets, car, noises in the environment etc etc. Pups exposed to low levels of stress from birth are shown to be more able to adapt and cope as adults- I will look for the research details when I am home from work. It's not just about what you intentionally expose the dog to.
I take my own pups out for walks from the day they arrive, they aren't lead walks and are in secure environments with my own reliable dogs (If I have any) or no dogs, they meet dogs known to me from a week or two later depending on the pups confidence.
I think house kept dogs require very different exposure and training to kennel kept. House pups need to learn ow to behave around people- no jumping up, the kennel environment is much easier to control Re what the pup has access to as it can be controlled by just one or two reliable people rather than every member of the family.
Confident pups get maximum exposure in Controlled environments with me, kennel kept dogs that have a fairly fixed job have a focus once that job begins and that focus often becomes the dogs world so they do tend to just absorb the world around them whilst they work, pets are expected to cope with the world as their focus and deal with it, I think the earlier that starts the better.
For what it's worth I am not against kennel kept dogs at Al having had both indoor and outdoor dogs it's just that both lifestyles give and expect something different to and from the dog.
 
twiggy2 said:
Genetics do play a huge part, pups socialisation starts from birth though, the sense of touch, temperature variations, mum, litter mates, smells that come in with mum from outside, tastes, owners, visitors, new homes, vets, car, noises in the environment etc etc. Pups exposed to low levels of stress from birth are shown to be more able to adapt and cope as adults- I will look for the research details when I am home from work. It's not just about what you intentionally expose the dog to.
I take my own pups out for walks from the day they arrive, they aren't lead walks and are in secure environments with my own reliable dogs (If I have any) or no dogs, they meet dogs known to me from a week or two later depending on the pups confidence.
I think house kept dogs require very different exposure and training to kennel kept. House pups need to learn ow to behave around people- no jumping up, the kennel environment is much easier to control Re what the pup has access to as it can be controlled by just one or two reliable people rather than every member of the family.
Confident pups get maximum exposure in Controlled environments with me, kennel kept dogs that have a fairly fixed job have a focus once that job begins and that focus often becomes the dogs world so they do tend to just absorb the world around them whilst they work, pets are expected to cope with the world as their focus and deal with it, I think the earlier that starts the better.
For what it's worth I am not against kennel kept dogs at Al having had both indoor and outdoor dogs it's just that both lifestyles give and expect something different to and from the dog.
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Very erudite and thought provoking reply. I love that this forum always throws up so many differing opinions - all valid in their own way.
 
Totally agree about exposure to stress.
I see so many people who are insistent that the dog receives no negative experience ever, and they congratulate themselves for training in a positive way.
Then when the stress comes (as it does to us all, one day!) from external circumstances, the dog is completely ill equipped to handle it and breaks down and the owner wonders why, having been the person who sold their pet a big lie in the first place.
That to me is unfair, if not cruel.
 
twiggy2 said:
Genetics do play a huge part, pups socialisation starts from birth though, the sense of touch, temperature variations, mum, litter mates, smells that come in with mum from outside, tastes, owners, visitors, new homes, vets, car, noises in the environment etc etc. …….. .
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I also agree with you. I would never buy a pup from a litter where the bitch seems stressed or overly aggressive. I want to see a bitch who can't wait to see the back of her pups! Nervous or reactive bitches will almost always influence the pups, though whether by genetics or by learned behaviour or a combination of both, they are best avoided. I suspect that genetics and the very early learning, perhaps when the pups can see and hear, play an equal part in what we end up with.

I've bred the odd litter or two of pups and always have a calm and peaceful routine in place all through pregnancy and certainly for the first week or so there are no visitors, no other dogs anywhere near them and I don't handle the pups. I have so little to do with new born pups, that I've had them at about 3 weeks pushing themselves up on their front legs and barking at me when I approach! I don't take this route for the pups directly, but for the bitch, and they soon settle with careful and gentle handling.

For the tails of the dock-able breeds to be shortened, it was always so much easier when I did it for myself. I certainly don't enjoy the trip to the vet, the pups are very young and the bitch never enjoys it either.

Just ramblings, my apology! :D

Alec.
 
Some great advice already. I don't see myself as socialising my pups, in that I don't have a set list of things the pup must meet by a certain deadline, and I don't attend puppy parties as they tend to be a free for all. A well run puppy class can be useful though. I prefer to habituate my puppy to the environment and different things in it - such as other dogs, strange people etc while keeping their focus on me through toys and play. The outside stimuli such as new dogs, people, traffic etc just start as a fuzzy outline in the background, gradually coming more into focus as a pup grows in confidence and his bond with me become stronger. I eventually want a dog that is focused on me rather than on other dogs, joggers, bikes etc.

As others have said, genetics really do play a huge role in the adult temperament of a dog and there are lots of studies which prove a stressed bitch will produce stressy pups. So choosing the right litter from a calm, balanced and sociable bitch is a must because socialisation begins even before birth and immediately after - long before a pup goes to his new owner.

Much of raising a puppy is common sense - don't overface him, reward calm behaviour, and gradually phase in new experiences and situations over time (as Alec says "drip feeding"). You can't avoid every single negative experience, but a confident, well bred pup should bounce back from negative experiences, whereas a more genetically nervous, shy pup will take much more building back up.

Try to remain positive and relaxed and enjoy your puppy :)
 
WorkingGSD said:
Some great advice already. I don't see myself as socialising my pups, in that I don't have a set list of things the pup must meet by a certain deadline, and I don't attend puppy parties as they tend to be a free for all. A well run puppy class can be useful though. I prefer to habituate my puppy to the environment and different things in it - such as other dogs, strange people etc while keeping their focus on me through toys and play. The outside stimuli such as new dogs, people, traffic etc just start as a fuzzy outline in the background, gradually coming more into focus as a pup grows in confidence and his bond with me become stronger. I eventually want a dog that is focused on me rather than on other dogs, joggers, bikes etc.

As others have said, genetics really do play a huge role in the adult temperament of a dog and there are lots of studies which prove a stressed bitch will produce stressy pups. So choosing the right litter from a calm, balanced and sociable bitch is a must because socialisation begins even before birth and immediately after - long before a pup goes to his new owner.

Much of raising a puppy is common sense - don't overface him, reward calm behaviour, and gradually phase in new experiences and situations over time (as Alec says "drip feeding"). You can't avoid every single negative experience, but a confident, well bred pup should bounce back from negative experiences, whereas a more genetically nervous, shy pup will take much more building back up.

Try to remain positive and relaxed and enjoy your puppy :)
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Thanks for that super advice. Luckily the bitch is calm, balanced and sociable and puppy is very confident and loves people. She has been very well socialised by the breeder, lives in the lounge or the garden and has met lots of people.
 
I have never been to a puppy class and regard what I hear of them with horror. Ditto those dog training classes in the village hall where your dog trains you to dispense biscuits until it gets a gold certificate in biscuit dispensing persuasion.
Ours just come out and about with us.
Pen, latest pup, had a nervous mum and you can really see it in how she perceives the world. Funnily enough though, our oldest lab bitch also had a nervous mum but was fine.
 
Clodagh said:
I have never been to a puppy class and regard what I hear of them with horror. Ditto those dog training classes in the village hall where your dog trains you to dispense biscuits until it gets a gold certificate in biscuit dispensing persuasion.
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Lol. Think my dog was about 24 months when someone pointed out 'You know you're just a ball dispenser to him?'
 
Clodagh said:
……..
Ours just come out and about with us.

Pen, latest pup, had a nervous mum and you can really see it in how she perceives the world. Funnily enough though, our oldest lab bitch also had a nervous mum but was fine.
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The best relationships that I've had with dogs were when I lived alone and they and I were rarely separated. Working with a dog as a companion, whatever we're doing, somehow seems to reinforce the pack practice, I've found.

Taken from the nervous mother early enough, some will 'come round'. Some, but it's a risk.

Alec.
 
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