soil analysis results - WWYD

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Polos Mum

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Looking for some of the lovely soil/ grass expert opinions. We've had soil analysis done and need to increase Phosphorus and reduce Magnesium - what would you suggest.

The analysis company have only suggested a product to top up micronutrients (copper etc.) which clearly does need doing - but we give vit supps to the boys so getting the grass to grow is my top concern and they don't seem to have addressed that!
 
Is it low in Potash too? You can use a high phosphate fertiliser such as Super Phos or if you need potash (k) too use a 0:24:24 which will boost the P&K but has no N. You need to speak to an agonomist really.
 
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The results don't have Potash - just potassium, which is normal (but at the higher end (224 ppm - with the results saying 180 ppm as a guide)

You are right we'll have to speak to agronomist - just wanted some independent views as they all seem to be selling 'their' product.
 
Potassium is the same as potash (k), Mole Valley Farmers do a 0:46:0 so no nitrogen (N)or potash, it's called TSP, triple super phosphate. I'm sure other merchants will have the same.
 
What are you trying to acheive?
Plants need phosphate to stimulate healthy root development for flowering and to help in the prevention of disease and stress. Phosphate helps in root stimulation and flowering of plants.

Other uses -
Because of its high value as a nutrient, phosphate is widely used in the manufacturing of animal feed supplements

Horse poo is high in Phospates so manure the fields.
Potash is potassium so dont get confused and encourages flower and seed and fruit development.

Detergents are high in phosphates thats why people used their washing up water on the veg plot.

Tomatos seek high doses of magnesium.

Please dont spend a lot of money on fertilisers,you will see little results
 
Rob Lakeside said:
Please dont spend a lot of money on fertilisers,you will see little results
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Could you please elaborate on this please. What is the point then of having a soil analysis done. I've had my analysis results (probably the same company as Polo's Mum) and have been recommended a fertiliser to increase very low levels of copper/sodium/zinc.

The previous owner had always had the local farmer come and fertilise with a high nitrogen fertiliser and talking to a friend who has an allotment, using high nitrogen fertilisers regularly locks in the trace elements. I don't know what is what any more!
 
I don't really understand how grass can grow without some kind of supplimental feeding? We take out nutrients from the ground via grazing the grass and cutting hay - surely fertiliser is the only way to put this back?

I'd like to achieve a lush thick grass covering that would withstand constant grazing without poaching but not be too rich for the horses (but short of a magic wand I know that is unlikely!) hence I'd like to do the best I can to get the soil balance optimal for grass growth.
 
All the chemical fertilisers are really really expensive - I used to buy them to boost the hay crop but I was spending twice as much as I gained in hay. I now have my muck heap spread every autumn (unless like last year it was too wet to get a tractor on) and it takes time but it gradually increases the fertility. I also don't poo pick in winter for the same reason - as you say, you can't keep taking everything out and not putting back. If you aren't happy to spread the poo your horses have produced, this is a good time of year to get a local farmer to let you have cattle manure from his winter housing. You'll need to let it rot until later in the year though, it won't do this year.
You may also need to address the Ph with lime if it is appropriate, that will help grass growth, grass doesn't do well on acid soil. Was there a Ph figure in the analysis? If not, you can get a cheap kit in garden centres, but do several samples, it may vary across your land.
Your analysis will help you to know what is in the grass your horses are grazing, and address any deficiencies with supplementation. Don't worry about excess Mg, they will simply excrete any excess, but you may need to add calcium to their diet, there is an important balance between Mg and Ca. Think of adding what is short in the diet rather than reducing minerals in the soil.
 
Many thanks JillA, the Ph was 7 which is fine, I'd like phosporus as I believe it encourages root growth so a longer term help - my lovely neighbour farmer did say putting some on wouldn't help this year but would benefit future years.

Interesting that poo has phosporus in it - we have a lovely old muck heap but don't know anyone with a working spreader - we had toyed with putting it in the tipping trailer and spreading it in small heaps then raking it round but at 7 months pregnant I suspect that's out of my capability for this year !!

I thought the micronutriants would be OK with suppliments in the horse feed but others have said copper/ zinc etc all impact on grass growth too so would be worth fixing from a purely grass perspective.

Lots of conflicting advice, I don't mind spending the cash (wisely) as good grass/ hay is IMHO 90% of the way to good horse welfare.
 
You can get ground driven spreaders you can tow behind a 4WD or a quad - the muck goes on to a flat area and as the wheels turn it spreads it behind, like a full size version of this. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dinky-27c...hicles_DiecastVehicles_JN&hash=item51aaa8bc7f They do smallish paddock ones for us horse owners. Might be worth investing?
Or find a friendly local farmer or contractor - I have two - the big business one for expensive jobs when he needs big machinery, like wrapping haylage, and a local farmer's son with a few cattle, his own tractor and odds and ends of every day machinery.
 
Thanks, I have a lovely neighbour farmer (who I think is starting to look at our yard as a good storage area for his old/ small machinery!) but he doesn't have a spreader sadly. We're in a very arable area of Lincs so very few farmers have aminal related machinery sadly.

I'll look into the smaller towable ones.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Ask a local farmer if you can borrow some sheep. They will thicken your grass up within a season, without the need for expensive products.
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My OH would love you - he really wants sheep. We're right on a main road so would need to sort suitable fencing but I'm coming to the conclusion that this would be worthwhile investment in the long term.

When do you put them on? after hay cut? stupid question - how long is a season. There's nothing to eat in the winter field now and the hay fields are resting for hay (obviously) so tricky to know when is the best time to try and find some.
Hay could be as late as Aug this year and then they'd need to be off by end Sept as we're on heavy clay so mud would be terrible - would a couple of months make a difference?
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Ask a local farmer if you can borrow some sheep. They will thicken your grass up within a season, without the need for expensive products.
Click to expand...

You will still need to fertilise, sheep eat the grass, grass grows depleting nutrients further. Frankly, if you are pregnant I would forget the sheep they can be hard work especially if you haven't got good fencing. They will need footcare, worming, fly treatments etc and you can guarantee they will escape as soon as you go into labour ;).
Many fields will be low in nutrients this spring due to leaching. If you are in an arable area there will be farmers and contractors who will spread fertiliser, speak to your local ag. merchants, they will have an agronomist who can recommend a product that will suit your needs and soil type and will know someone who can spread it for you.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Ask a local farmer if you can borrow some sheep. They will thicken your grass up within a season, without the need for expensive products.
Click to expand...

If you get some belonging to someone else it is up to them to fence (temporary electric probably) and do all the regular care. But sheep do have suicidal tendencies - when I had about 50 here two of them turned up their toes in the first week. Sometimes hill farmers are looking for summer grass keep for theirs - and sheep eat horse parasite larvae and do poop to fertilise the grass for you. Problem in Lincs is where are your nearest hill farms?? Norway?
 
JillA said:
If you get some belonging to someone else it is up to them to fence (temporary electric probably) and do all the regular care. But sheep do have suicidal tendencies - when I had about 50 here two of them turned up their toes in the first week. Sometimes hill farmers are looking for summer grass keep for theirs - and sheep eat horse parasite larvae and do poop to fertilise the grass for you. Problem in Lincs is where are your nearest hill farms?? Norway?
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You will also need a holding number.
 
I agree this whole area is a nightmare .
However the biggest key to happy pasture is not over grazing , grass is designed to be eaten it has evolved with grazers over many years but it copes badly with being overgrazed you say you are on clay so am I it's vital to rest and rotate the paddocks I have learnt over the years how to work with my paddocks to get the amount of grass I need .
I have equipment now to roll and top etc when I need to this has made a huge difference .
 
You don't need a holding number, unless they are your sheep. If they belong to someone else they can use their own holding number - as I found out just AFTER I got mine. It's no biggie really it is quite a useful thing to have and easy enough to get, or was when I did it.
 
you can use potato fertiliser which is cheaper than horse products. 15:15:15 will do the job without too much N. This is what we use.
 
JillA said:
You don't need a holding number, unless they are your sheep. If they belong to someone else they can use their own holding number - as I found out just AFTER I got mine. It's no biggie really it is quite a useful thing to have and easy enough to get, or was when I did it.
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If the sheep belong to someone else they have to be within the 5 mile radius of the main place of business to use the owners CPH no. Otherwise you will have to have your own and all movements to and from the land will have to be recorded and forwarded to A.H.
Most ag.merchants will stock a variety of straights and blends of fertilisers. If your 'P' is very low it may be better to add a higher spec. Phosphate fert with either no or less N or you may find you are swamped in rich grass which may not suit your needs. You will also need to use more of a lower spec fertiliser to get the same result.
 
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Thanks all, some good ideas, potato fertiliser is something that we could easily get (lots of potato farmers in the local area)

We have a CPH number for our pigs so could do rent a sheep from that perspective - but someone else would need to do the care (you've thankfully listed all my arguements against sheep for my OH!) - and I'm not sure we'd find someone who'd give us them for just the few months they could be here.

Mike - it's definitely magnesium it's high in (our reading 217 vs their guide of 51 ppm) Manganese is very low (our reading 21 vs their guide of 70ppm) - talking to neighbour his land is the same so I guess it may be the nature of the soil rather than anything odd we've done?-

Goldenstar - we have 2 on 12 acres (have had up to 5) so I'd hope not over grazing, it was a barley crop when we bought it (only 5 years ago) so far from established, I was just hoping it would be better than it is by now. We have rolls and harrow (never had any spare to top!)
 
JillA said:
All the chemical fertilisers are really really expensive - I used to buy them to boost the hay crop but I was spending twice as much as I gained in hay. I now have my muck heap spread every autumn (unless like last year it was too wet to get a tractor on) and it takes time but it gradually increases the fertility. I also don't poo pick in winter for the same reason - as you say, you can't keep taking everything out and not putting back. If you aren't happy to spread the poo your horses have produced, this is a good time of year to get a local farmer to let you have cattle manure from his winter housing. You'll need to let it rot until later in the year though, it won't do this year.
You may also need to address the Ph with lime if it is appropriate, that will help grass growth, grass doesn't do well on acid soil. Was there a Ph figure in the analysis? If not, you can get a cheap kit in garden centres, but do several samples, it may vary across your land.
Your analysis will help you to know what is in the grass your horses are grazing, and address any deficiencies with supplementation. Don't worry about excess Mg, they will simply excrete any excess, but you may need to add calcium to their diet, there is an important balance between Mg and Ca. Think of adding what is short in the diet rather than reducing minerals in the soil.
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Thanks Jilla for backing me up excellant post i have nothing to add.

Horse manure is high phosphates for the reason of graines or seeds taken in by the horses diet.
Nitrates or nitrogen in Urea form
Manure will increase the soil fertility and if you where to use fertiliser will retain in the soil/humus and not wash out easily.

Why do you use a soil analysis for specific cropping for farmers but grass is tough and is capable of growing on all terranes.
Potato fertiliser or growmore are simular and both are a general all_rounders

PH is poss high at 7 the manure will bring down the ph to 6.5 neutral excellant.
 
Right, where are you Polo's Mum, PM if you prefer, I might be quite happy to graze part of my flock at yours if you are not too far away, I also know contractors with muck spreaders, which as you know, is like rocking horse manure (pun intended, lol).
Grazing season is normally April-October for ''summer grazing'' and November-March for ''winter grazing''. I'm happy to do bits and bobs to suit, though :) Also, if it gets wet and muddy, sheepy tiddly feet can be quite a good thing, as the sort of paddle the groung and improve thickness of the sward - the fields that look like they are completely and utterly killed by our sheep come back the quickest and the best :eek:
 
I know this probably won't help you, sorry, but it may help others who are reading. I have gone completely the other way and deliberately depleted my 12 acres over the years so t that I now have a wildflower meadow. Wild flowers only grow well in poor soil, otherwise the grass out-competes them. I threw off the sheep because they grazed too close and made everything too lush.

I can now graze two horses in knee deep grass safely and they have enough "foggage" left over to see them right through the winter (they are in at night in winter and in the day in summer). I have natural wormers and all sorts of other plants growing.

My land is heavy in iron and manganese, for which I supplement the horses with copper. I buy forage in from a few miles away which is not heavy in those elements in order to provide the widest balance of nutrients that I can.

Phosphorous should be easy for you to supplement. Feed bran. Magnesium is safe in excess and many of us barefooters deliberately feed it in large quantities.

Horses are not genetically designed to eat lush green grass and I would be concerned that you could create the grazing that you want to see, only to find yourself doing a lot of extra work to restrict their access to it.
 
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Martlin - many thanks have PM'd you where we are

Cptrayes - I do agree, I certainly don't want dairy pasture and very helpful to clarify that the high magnesium isn't too much of a problem - it may be why mine are so chilled as I think that's what's in calmers? !

The grass isn't very thick even after several years of overseeding, I'd love to make it tiller (SP?) out more and have a better root structure so poaching is better prevented - and very interesting that having had the tests done it's phosphorous that's lowest and I believe it;s that which promotes root growth.
I'm leaning towards the 0:46:0 that is just phosporous which shouldn't send the actual grass luminious but might help the roots/ structure - or manure (if I can find any)/ sheep to self manure! as that might have the same effect.
 
Around here they occasionally "slit" the land and I think that is to encourage root growth - would it be worth looking into that? It leaves the field looking like someone's been pushing a spade into it all over the place, or whole lines. I'm sorry I don't know the technical terms for it, I only see the results.

Magnesium is definitely not an issue (unless your field spontaneously combusts in sunlight :D ) but it may well be a reason why your horses are calm! I feed about 15 grams of magnesium a day to my boys (30g of MgO). There are thousands of us who do it.

I would have thought that grazing sheep can only put back what they have eaten? I don;t think they can obtain phosphorous except by eating it. I suspect you'd need more sheep poo than the number of sheep actually grazing the field will deliver, unless they are being fed supplementary food/mineral licks.
 
cptrayes said:
Around here they occasionally "slit" the land and I think that is to encourage root growth - would it be worth looking into that? It leaves the field looking like someone's been pushing a spade into it all over the place, or whole lines. I'm sorry I don't know the technical terms for it, I only see the results.

Magnesium is definitely not an issue (unless your field spontaneously combusts in sunlight :D ) but it may well be a reason why your horses are calm! I feed about 15 grams of magnesium a day to my boys (30g of MgO). There are thousands of us who do it.

I would have thought that grazing sheep can only put back what they have eaten? I don;t think they can obtain phosphorous except by eating it. I suspect you'd need more sheep poo than the number of sheep actually grazing the field will deliver, unless they are being fed supplementary food/mineral licks.
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I think you mean sub soiling , this needs to approached with caution on clay as the field drains are often quite close to the surface and can be badly damaged leaving you with a bigger problem .
 
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