Sole 'Problem'

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Keep Trying

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Hi All,

Need a little advice from a 'Barefoot Guru' if anyone's in.

Have 11yrs old TBx mare in very good health. I believe that she is sugar intolerant and is on a sugar free diet which has shown great improvements and this has been in place for at least 18months. She is also continually muzzled as grass growth shows pretty rapid changes in the crest etc. She has very good hard feet and x rays have shown the structures are completely sound but that she does have thin soles on the fronts.

I can't seem to get any growth going with the soles but the hoof wall, frog etc are showing phenomenal growth rates. I compete during the summer and she is shod for that but has 6 months barefoot through the winters. Her shoes were removed 22nd September and at her 6weeks trim the nail holes and breakages had grown out such is her growth rate.

Any ideas as to how I can crack the thin sole problem or do I just accept that nothing can be done??

Thanks.
 
A good professional experienced in sound barefoot horses is something to think about for on the spot advice. They should be able to advise and see weak areas in the hoof.

Reducing sugars further if possible including a spell off grass altogether and soaked hay if not already fed would be my first move. Then forage analysis (if possible/practical) and supplementation of minerals according to this might well be the next. Zinc, salt and copper along with magnesium are commonly low but not always. Sometimes iron is really high etc. etc.
Time is the other important factor.

There are a few places doing forage analysis and this place provides a full service. http://shop.forageplus.com/

This place and D&H do analysis but you might need help interpreting it. You need to stress it's for horses not cattle. http://www.bioparametrics.com/

Just read your post above and I have found no grass and soaking hay has/can have a dramatic affect on hoof shape/concavity. This is on my horses in my situation.
 
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How much work does she do in the six month barefoot?

Soles thicken on stimulation. With shoes they are taken out of action. Without shoes and with exercise, they callous and thicken. If the horse can't comfortably work then they need boots and then work, work, work.
Farrier is not allowed to touch them at all either.
 
I'll try the forage analysis as it's the only thing left to look at really. She's having soaked hay already and an AEP looks at her every six weeks whether she's barefoot or not. He's a bit stumped as well really but we both agree that there seems to be one componenet missing and if we find it it should (hopefully) make all the difference.

Oberon - she's off for three months in the winter...well I'm off for three months in the winter as we live in pretty inhospitable surroundings and it can get a little hazardous to ride at times! when she is worked she has boots on all round even though I don't think she needs them behind as the hinds are pretty strong.
 
I think with balanced minerals and more work you'd find her soles would thicken.

If the diet isnt spot on (despite your best efforts) to her needs then you find the coffin bones tends to hover lower, hence thin soles. With the diet changes, they tend to rise back into their proper position and you have room to lay more sole down with work.
How inhospitable is it round your end? Sounds scary!
 
We are in the mountains and it's almost all rock and proper slippery!! We tend to get a bit of 'gale force' on a regular basis and the flying debris is positively frightening!:eek:
 
Keep Trying said:
I'll try the forage analysis as it's the only thing left to look at really. She's having soaked hay already and an AEP looks at her every six weeks whether she's barefoot or not. He's a bit stumped as well really but we both agree that there seems to be one componenet missing and if we find it it should (hopefully) make all the difference.
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Good luck. I'm sure you rinse the hay too. I've had hay (not tested) that my laminitis prone pony tells me is still too high in sugars despite soaking and rinsing. Sometimes soaking it twice and rinsing helps other times I have to source different hay for her.

My wish is that one day I can buy huge loads of low sugar hay and get it tested. Some diet advice for sensitive horses here in case you haven't seen it. http://ecirhorse.com/# I was interested to see the recommendation for rinsing speedibeet before soaking due to iron residue as I feed it.
 
You mention a crest, on a mare, and sugar intolerance.

I have a friend with a severerly insulin resistant horse who is being referred to a National expert Vet in this condition. We have learnt that if the horse has an IR type crest on the neck, then the fat in that crest itself becomes a producer of large amounts of insulin. The fat MUST be removed to stop this happening and there are only two ways to do it. Starve the horse under veterinary supervision (which is where my friend is now) or liposuction (which is where she is going next if the mare's scores don't come down from the 400+ level they are currently still on).

One of the ways to identify a problem crest is that they do not seem to like it being poked and prodded, they act as if it hurts. It probably does :(

IR will cause thin soles and if your mare has this problem this will not come right until you can get her insulin levels down to normal.
 
cptrayes said:
We have learnt that if the horse has an IR type crest on the neck, then the fat in that crest itself becomes a producer of large amounts of insulin.
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Wow! I didn't know that. Very interesting thanks for sharing.

I totally missed the reference to a crest. I check my ponies mane/neck almost daily for the wobble factor and signs of a crest starting. A stiff crest is especially worrying I believe and is also a sign of extreme weight gain.
 
New learning for me too Amanda, we were told it about a month ago. It doesn't half explain why you can get the diet perfect with some horses but they still don't come right, doesn't it?

If that crest is pumping out insulin all by itself, no amount of correct diet will change anything, and that's how my friend's mare is. She is now stick thin, under veterinary supervision on only soaked hay and a very limited quantity at that, and still giving sky high insulin readings. Unfortunately the insulin crest is the last bit of obvious body fat that allows itself to be "eaten" to keep the horse alive, so she is looking more like a welfare case every day :( My friend is not prepared to starve her much longer, and will go for liposuction which will be interesting. If that does not work the mare must be put to sleep.

For my friend's sake I must stress that a vet is very closely involved with this horse, and also that the horse herself is much brighter in character since she became thin and is clearly feeling healthier even though she would raise many eyebrows with her rug removed.
 
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I'm struggling to believe that something that isn't a pancreas can produce insulin.

Did the vet mention where they got the research behind this theory?
 
trina1982 said:
Just out of interest, is the 'starving' similar to the discoveries recently that type 2 diabetes (in humans) can be reversed with starving. Or is it coincidence/not related at all?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-13887909

Trina x
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OOh - I'll show that to my hubby. He's type 2 and won't be impressed
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I'll stick him on the LighterLife diet ;)
 
I've been googling but can't find anything. I wonder what the mechanism is behind this and how it was diagnosed? Biopsy?
I would imagine there must be some cell changes or development of insulin producing tissue...
Any links to studies cptrayes?
 
The only thing that grew better soles on my horse, despite all his life barefoot and low sugar diet, soaked hay etc. was getting my minerals balanced.
We now, at last, have concave thick soles and not footy on sharp stones. But it took 6 months of feeding the new minerals and I was close to jacking it in as I wasn't convinced I was seeing enough change to bother with it all. Can't believe the difference now!!
 
No none, sorry, I have not met the Vet myself, I hear it only from my friend. I will try and get you some.

I am certain that it is related to being able to cure type ii diabetes in humans by starvation, but only because I cannot see a single reason why it should not be. Do you also know that they are testing magnesium? Perhaps Oberon should get her mag ox out of the tackroom into the kitchen????
 
cptrayes said:
No none, sorry, I have not met the Vet myself, I hear it only from my friend. I will try and get you some.

I am certain that it is related to being able to cure type ii diabetes in humans by starvation, but only because I cannot see a single reason why it should not be. Do you also know that they are testing magnesium? Perhaps Oberon should get her mag ox out of the tackroom into the kitchen????
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He was diagnosed earlier in the year. I researched and bought him a shed load of stuff (including magnesium and brewer's yeast) to 'detox' him and boost him up, alongside the tablets....

He took them (ignored the BY
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) and never bothered buying himself any more
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So I spent £15 on some Magnesium tablets this payday and have placed them all around the kitchen - in front of his coffee and even followed him around with them
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He just ignores them!!!

If the Nurse at his GP's were to suggest them, he'd take them...but me (and my ALS certificate) aren't worth listening to
banghead.gif
 
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