"some dogs just don't speak dog"

Pearlsasinger

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I got told by a livery owner that my horse didn't know how to be a horse simply because when they hayed the field in the winter she chased the other horses to get the food first, I thought that was normal horse behaviour 😂


Perfectly normal horse behaviour! That is why you should always put hay into more piles than there are horses.
 

CorvusCorax

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I met up with my friend yesterday and asked how it was going with the dog and she said there hasn't been much change, the trainer has said to keep her on a long line for introductions to new dogs and just take it slowly but hasn't offered much advice regards if it goes well and the dogs are then off lead to play and something happens. My friend says even when her dog is playing with her "usual group of doggy friends" it is always her chasing the other dogs and rolling them over which made me think of your post. How would you suggest dealing with a dog like this? I thought keeping a long line attached and when the play gets "too much" stopping it so she learns play only continues if she plays nicely? Any suggestions on how to train nice play?

I wouldn't TBH. She doesn't 'need' to play with other dogs and she can't unlearn what is pretty much an inherent trait. Shepherds tend to play rough in the same way as they are good at nosework or prone to certain conditions. Every time this happens and she starts to bully, the behaviour will be reinforced. Using a line in these circumstances could at best build frustration (here's what you could have won) and at worst some human or dog could get badly hurt.
For me, I don't count tear-arsing around with other dogs as 'exercise', 'socialising' or 'stimulation' - that's my job - and in fact it sends a lot of dogs over threshold.

This morning we met a little terrier about the size of my dog's head. He came over, my dog stayed on his leash, other owner patted him, we made small talk, dogs had a nice hello and a sniff, when he tried to sniff the terriers bum there was a little drama queen shriek and then we had a giggle at her dog and went on our way. That's enough interaction for today. His head won't fall off because I didn't let it get to the stage where he was slamdunking the terrier.

My older one has minimal contact with other dogs. He's 8 years old, he's happy, full of beans, it does not have a negative impact on his life.
 

fankino04

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Thanks guys I will pass the advice on, she was a bit worried that the trainer didn't really seem to be addressing the problem but maybe it's a problem that can't be fixed only managed. The dog is also a bit too hyped up at home, some days will destroy stuff if left for a few hours, very demanding when she wants your attention, jumps on people when they walk in etc so I think she has her work cut out in the training department and she isn't too convinced by the current trainer so far.
 

CorvusCorax

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Maybe the trainer has suggested what I have already said?
I think you have hit the nail on the head, it's not something you can really train out. I can stop eating chips, but I won't ever stop liking the taste of chips, for example!
None of those things are unusual in young German Shepherds, rescued or not, socialised or not.
If she destroys stuff, don't give her access to stuff that can be destroyed, that's what crates, dog gates and dog runs/kennels are for.
Destroying/chewing stuff is generally a stress/boredom response and no trainer on this earth can train a dog not to do something, if they are not in the room with it.
If she's demanding attention, then thank the Lord you have a dog that wants to engage with you and channel it into something useful.
If she jumps on people when they walk in, don't let her have access to people as they walk in.
Sorry to be blunt, but if people want a nice, calm dog that wants to lie on the sofa all day and doesn't need occupied/entertained and isn't naturally suspicious of strangers coming into the home, then they should not get a German Shepherd.
The vast majority of GSDs with behavioural issues either have them from nature/genetics or because they are bored and under-stimulated and their owner is about as dynamic as a wet sock and lets the rest of the world get more exciting than they are.
The most important thing your friend can do is get her common sense head on and become the most important thing in this dog's life. Not other dogs, not visitors, not the skirting boards, but MUMMY.
 

fankino04

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Thanks CC, I gave her a copy of Craig ogilvies book when I went round so hopefully that will help with channeling some of the energy, she is a really lovely dog but I think just hasn't been told no very often, my mate is quite consistent with her but her husband doesn't seem to follow the same rules....
 

Fellewell

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I was chatting with a friend about her new rescue gsd and how things were going, she says they are going really well but the new girl is overly friendly with other dogs and races accross fields to play with them but then becomes quite vicious if the other dog reacts negatively (perfectly understandable response when a large unknown dog bounces on you). She has had a trainer out to help with this and the trainer said "some dogs just don't speak dog", so her dog doesn't understand the other dog is not a threat and that she has scared it by being so full on. I wondered what others thought about dogs not speaking dog and the problems that causes...
 

Fellewell

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Some trainers don't speak dog either. Very knowlegeable people on here but I would add that German Shepherds love to chase, it's why they do the jobs they do. Rushing in with all guns blazing is to get the other dog to run and when they don't run, GSDs are understandably disappointed. I used to see a lady with two whippets, my shepherd could actually match their speed on the straight and try to hamstring them. They were clever enough to turn and lose her because she had too much bulk to follow them. When buying a breed it helps to know what they enjoy.
 

rabatsa

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My current greyhound and the GSD are pretty well matched for speed at the moment. This may change as the shepherd bulks up with age. They are also within 0.5kg of each other in weight. The greyhound has learnt that in order to stop getting body slammed you have to pick up a toy and offer a game of tug.
 

CorvusCorax

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Some trainers don't speak dog either.

Indeed. As I said on another thread, I would urge anyone looking for a trainer to like see proof of what people are doing/have done with their own dogs before putting faith in them and money in their pocket.

There's people getting exposure/eye watering amounts of money, for proving that they can...make nice videos of their own dogs, of easily trainable breeds, doing tricks in their own gardens/field. No stress, no pressure, no distractions.
 

Fellewell

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In truth, the average pet dog shouldn't need specialist training. My 'easy' dogs have all been the result of careful, responsible breeding by people who know and care about the breed. The ones I've rehomed have generally been the result of someone else's greed. Thankfully the opportunists do get exposed eventually but not before they've done damage to a wonderful breed and, sadly, peoples dreams.
I wouldn't fancy the chances of a back garden trainer with a truly challenging dog. I consider my dogs to be trained but when I'm away for a few days and they're left with my OH, I know I'll have to reinforce manners when I get back!
 

Clodagh

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In truth, the average pet dog shouldn't need specialist training. My 'easy' dogs have all been the result of careful, responsible breeding by people who know and care about the breed. The ones I've rehomed have generally been the result of someone else's greed. Thankfully the opportunists do get exposed eventually but not before they've done damage to a wonderful breed and, sadly, peoples dreams.
I wouldn't fancy the chances of a back garden trainer with a truly challenging dog. I consider my dogs to be trained but when I'm away for a few days and they're left with my OH, I know I'll have to reinforce manners when I get back!

My husband said the other day' Why on earth can't people breed pet dogs that anyone can actually just live with any more?' well they can, but they are vastly overshadowed by the make a quick buck lot.
 

CorvusCorax

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Anyone can breed a litter these days.
All dogs now appear to be 'lovely'.

And a lot of people don't seem to know what they are looking at in terms of temperament. When their own dogs are sitting in front of them (or hiding behind them), dangling a paw, showing side-eye, wrapping their ears, yawning or licking their lips.

It was very rare that anyone used to breed a nervy or aggressive animal, now it doesn't seem to be a consideration...
 

Clodagh

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I also wonder if - me for instance - I have pretty well trained labs, I get paid to take them out in public. Give me a spaniel and I was completely flummoxed.
So, I am OK with a slow old coloured cob but on a high powered warmblood I would look stupid, not cope, fail myself and the horse.

So some people can't even cope with a lab, yet they get something they have always wanted, because it is pretty/scary/big/small whatever and have the same problem?
 

Iva

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I met up with my friend yesterday and asked how it was going with the dog and she said there hasn't been much change, the trainer has said to keep her on a long line for introductions to new dogs and just take it slowly but hasn't offered much advice regards if it goes well and the dogs are then off lead to play and something happens. My friend says even when her dog is playing with her "usual group of doggy friends" it is always her chasing the other dogs and rolling them over which made me think of your post. How would you suggest dealing with a dog like this? I thought keeping a long line attached and when the play gets "too much" stopping it so she learns play only continues if she plays nicely? Any suggestions on how to train nice play?
Hi fankino04, I had a similar problem with our boy - he simply couldn't speak dog, was a bit too keen, but also a bit fearful, so even the slightest negative reaction from the other dog would trigger a full-blown fight response from him, which gradually went worse as time passed. After a few attacks, the last two totally unprovoked, he went on leash and stayed on it for a good year, while I was trying to deal with his extreme reactivity, following the advice of a local trainer. Sad to say, we got nowhere with that, if anything, his frustration and reactivity just got worse.
I'm not sure what your friend's views on dog training techniques are, I certainly was against what is generally considered aversive training methods, but faced with either never letting my dog out of the house, or having him PTS, I thought it'd be worth trying a balanced trainer. That was last autumn, and the change has been quite noticeable. I use an ecollar, and can now walk him off lead around livestock and other dogs. It's still a work in progress, I'm far from trusting him, but he is beginning to learn that the world is not such a scary place and not every other dog is out to get him.
 

skinnydipper

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Hi fankino04, I had a similar problem with our boy - he simply couldn't speak dog, was a bit too keen, but also a bit fearful, so even the slightest negative reaction from the other dog would trigger a full-blown fight response from him, which gradually went worse as time passed. After a few attacks, the last two totally unprovoked, he went on leash and stayed on it for a good year, while I was trying to deal with his extreme reactivity, following the advice of a local trainer. Sad to say, we got nowhere with that, if anything, his frustration and reactivity just got worse.
I'm not sure what your friend's views on dog training techniques are, I certainly was against what is generally considered aversive training methods, but faced with either never letting my dog out of the house, or having him PTS, I thought it'd be worth trying a balanced trainer. That was last autumn, and the change has been quite noticeable. I use an ecollar, and can now walk him off lead around livestock and other dogs. It's still a work in progress, I'm far from trusting him, but he is beginning to learn that the world is not such a scary place and not every other dog is out to get him.

I am responding to the above post in the hope it will deter anyone else from using "balanced training" with their dog.

For those who aren't familiar with the term "balanced training", it is a euphemism for "training" which involves suppressing behaviour by the use of punishment but which ultimately teaches the dog nothing and betrays the dog's trust in his human.

From reading your post, it does seem as if you actively sought this type of trainer.

I personally prefer not to inflict pain on my friend and my view is that punishment is never the way forward. You need to build trust with your dog and support him and you cannot do that with punishment.

Advising you to punish a fearful dog is terrible advice.

Are you and your trainer familiar with the work of BF Skinner (the effects of punishment) and also of Martin Seligman (learned helplessness)?

Skinner's theory in a nutshell as it relates to dogs:

Punishment suppresses the behaviour which returns when the punishment is stopped.

It causes increased aggression.

It creates fear that can generalise.

Punishment only tells the dog what not to do it does not guide the dog to the desired behaviour.

Seligman conducted experiments on dogs using electric shocks but it would apply to any form of aversive from which the dog was unable to escape. Basically the dogs just shut down, which he termed learned helplessness.

I am not a psychologist so I am not prepared to argue the finer points of the conclusions reached by Skinner and Seligman but we do have psychologists on the forum who may be able to offer greater insight into why punishment is not a good choice for behaviour modification.
 
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Clodagh

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I wouldn't shock a dog, but they have had a wallop from me, mainly when I lose my temper! Not on the lab's to be fair, they are soft as butter, but it can get a dog to break a cycle and look at you, so you can hopefully suggest an alternative behaviour.
 
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