Some honest opinions/advice please

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emfen1305

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Or a shoulder to cry on, will take anything right now!

Newcomers to my plight with Toby very much welcome to comment, as are those who know his history, all advice and opinions welcome! I will try to give a brief backstory but as I am not planning further diagnostics, i don't suppose it will help too much, those who know, skip this paragraph!! Toby is 11, I got him 3 years ago and in the last 18 months he has been lame or off in varying degrees. First very bad recurring ulcers, then arthritic hocks, then 8 months of just arbitrarily trying to make him lame so we could block something, then PSD in both hind legs found by block and scan so had the op, trotted up sound after the op but 11 weeks post op is not right again, picks up his back right very oddly and doesn't quite look right. Lunged tonight on physios advice, looked immediately lame but then seemed to improve but canter is horrendous, worse than pre surgery, he looks completely blocked from him SI down to hind legs.

I have already decided he will not undergo any more diagnostics, he is a very anxious horse and the only things I can think of that they will do next is to either block the stifle or the SI, neither of which I think are particularly easy and I just think he has been through enough. I had already accepted he will not come back into any form of work other than very light hacking so my plan was to have him sound enough and then try to full loan as a light hack/companion. I had also thought about retirement but have to be sensible long term in terms of cost and his health as well as his dislike of herds. He has poor conformation which I think is catching up with him and is causing all of these issues.

I know that realistically time might just be a factor in seeing whether he will come right or not but I'm not really too sure what I am aiming for by "right" because he looks fine in a straight line, fine in the field and happy enough in the stable but physio (who has been seeing him every 3 weeks) says that each time he is tense and very tight behind which I agree with and not comfortable in anything other than walk so clearly he is not fine. I'm just a bit stuck, I am calling the vet tomorrow so she can come out to have a look but now I am starting to wonder whether he will ever be sound without further treatment which I am not willing to put him through just so he can be hacked. It seems a bit drastic to be thinking about PTS as outwardly he is OK, he doesn't look depressed, he happily goes to and from the field etc but I am not sure whether it would be the kindest thing if he is uncomfortable.

Sorry, this is really long and rambly without a real question, I guess its just cathartic getting it all down. I can't keep thinking "in an ideal world..." because it isn't an ideal world so now I need to get realistic so just wondering if anyone else has ever had something similar.
 
Pts won’t be the worst thing in the world. A long life of pain would esp if he is already an anxious one with herd issues. If he was able to find a life long companion in a field that would be great but it’s not hugely likely and I can’t imagine he would appeal to many for a loan prospect sorry :(
 
I have followed some of your story and think from reading it that his conformation is the root of the problems and there is nothing that can be done to alter that, he is inherently weak in the back legs and whatever you, your vets or physio do from now on, and possibly for the past 18 months, will not be able to make an unsound horse sound enough to work, he may be ok to do some light hacking or live out in retirement but is unlikely to do a job of work for you.

I personally would retire but I have my own land and know it is not possible for everyone to do this, so option 2 would be to give him a month or two living out once the weather is nice and have him pts on a sunny day once you have had time to accept it, giving him a bit of time out after a rotten winter being prodded and poked, on box rest etc would make me feel better even though the horse knows nothing about what is going on, I don't think it realistic to commit any more time, money or emotion to a horse that sadly was never going to have a long useful life.
 
You know that I would support you having him put to sleep EF. And I'd be happy to come and hold his or your hand for you on the day if that's what you decide.
 
If he's happy in the field and demeanour good I would turn him away for a year and see how he looks. I'd not rush into a decision if he is happy being the horse.
 
Ref the cost aspect, having the physio every 3 weeks must add up. If you retired him you might be able to cut back on the physio, would that help on the cost front?
I’m not saying you shouldn’t consider PTS, just wondering if retirement could be affordable.
I retired my girl aged 16 last year, I’d had years of issues with her, nothing bad enough for a vet to point to and say THATS your problem, but it seemed to be enough niggles that I could never get her working happily.
I’d had enough, she’d had enough and my bank manager had had enough!
So she is now a happy field ornament and I now have a 2nd horse (who has also been a walking vets bill for the last 3 months ��)
 
I all honesty I don't know what I'd do in your shoes but I am fairly sure I am on the same road as you. 6yo, started off as hock djd, now looking at neck changes and probable SI issues too. Vet seems optimistic about trying to medicate both neck and SI but in reality I can't see how a horse with so many issues so young is going to last long. A bute trial made zero difference so we can't even conclude whether he's in pain or not.
In all honesty I'd be tempted to turn away for a while and reassess in 12 months, if only to let his PSD surgery settle.
If it's any consolation I have acquired a "child's pony" who is really a driving pony for me so if I need to turn away the big man I have something to do. Is another project an option as distraction?
 
I haven't followed your struggle closely but going by what you've written here I would turn away on good hilly pasture for 12 months and then reassess.
Obviously this depends on whether you can or are willing to turn away, and if your horse would be happy being a field ornament for a year. Sorry I can't be more help
 
Thanks all, very much appreciate your comments, I have floated with the idea of retirement/turning him away for a while and always been told that he's young and he will come right so I put it off given that i would be a difficult choice and have always been bound by insurance deadlines.

The cheapest I am realistically looking at that I know if would be around £130 a month not including extras - he would need very little attention from the farrier and dentist so it would just be worming and his jabs so if I round to £150 a month that should cover added extras. If he hurts himself and needs vet attention I would have a little put by for that, anything that is more serious I would look to PTS and I would have to be very objective about this. My issues are that he isn't great in a herd if there are very dominant horses, he gets quite panicky and has interesting ideas on how to cope (when he first moved into his current field and the grumpy old man gave him the run around he decided jumping the brook into a wire fence was a better idea than just standing his ground) so I am worried about how he would settle. I am also worried about paying £150 a month for what could be another 10-15 years but is it selfish to think of PTS just because of financial inconvenience - this is what is tugging at my heart strings.
 
I agree with bepositive, in so much that even if you do get him right now I do think he is going to be very likely to reinjure himself in future as are result.

You have tried a lot over the last 18 months, and what you do long term depends on how you feel about it I think. You could find him a good grass retirement livery yard with plenty of land for mooching and a good enough set up that they will notice if he starts to not cope. You can wait for summer and keep him out at yours and see how he goes, or you can make the decision (which I don't think would be a wrong thing to do for him)

I really think it depends on your situation, and your feelings about it really. x
 
In all honesty?? I would PTS. Probably not what you want to hear but if he's as uncomfortable as you say it's the best thing for him. I had a lovely welshie who wasn't right off and on for 18 months...long story short PSD...I'm afraid I didn't consider surgery, many horses just go lame again in such a short time and the op just doesn't sit right with me so he was PTS....I don't regret the decision at all.
 
I don't think he is that "young" he is at the age where either hard work or poor confo starts to really show, he may in theory be low mileage but that does not mean he will grow out of whatever his issues are, which may be possible in something half his age, yet he could still live for 15 years or more. I retired an 11 year old that couldn't stand up to proper work and we never really found out why, he was a bad cribber, a tb and I thought would be gone by 20 but he thrived and was eventually pts at 26, he cost very little as it was my land but he still required the normal care, meant I had 1 less paying livery and while I was very fond of him it is a burden financially which keeps going while they are happy and comfortable in the field.

I have another here retired but he worked properly until I decided we had done enough, he is now 27, fit and well so don't underestimate how long they will be around, I do like to give them a retirement but think it unfair to expect everyone to be able to do so or make them feel guilty if they pts for in part financial reasons, we have to have a life and if having an unsound horse pts after trying hard to fix them means you can move forward then do what is right for you.
 
It really feels like it boils down to two choices: If he can stay sound enough to be a field ornament which I suspect he will be able to then i'll be looking at £150 a month for potentially the next 10-15 years. If I don't want to pay this then I have to PTS. It's so difficult, I just want to do what's right by him and also by me.
 
I am also worried about paying £150 a month for what could be another 10-15 years but is it selfish to think of PTS just because of financial inconvenience
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No, it isn't. The people who do this do it because it makes them feel good to do it. If it would not make you feel good to spend that money and emotional energy, then it is not selfish to make sure that he is never in pain, upset, too cold, to hot, too wet, too bothered by flies or too anything else ever again. He does not know, or care, that he 'could' live for another 10-15 years, only you do.

Do whatever is right for you which is not unkind for him.

I've seen him EF. You know that I told you that I didn't think you should have the operation. What has happened since is what I feared for you and for him. If you decide now to call it a day, after how long you have struggled and how much you have spent, nobody has any right to criticise whatever decision you make next.
 
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If he were mine I'd turn away until the end of October. If he has come sound then all good, if not I'd be making the call before winter.
This gives him a little time to recover if that is possible and is also easy on the bank balance. I wouldn't be putting a horse with long term soundness issues through another winter.
 
ycbm said:
No, it isn't. The people who do this do it because it makes them feel good to do it. If it would not make you feel good to spend that money and emotional energy, then it is not selfish to make sure that he is never in pain, upset, too cold, to hot, too wet, too bothered by flies or too anything else ever again. He does not know, or care, that he 'could' live for another 10-15 years, only you do.

Do whatever is right for you which is not unkind for him.

I've seen him EF. You know that I told you that I didn't think you should have the operation. What has happened since is what I feared for you and for him. If you decide now to call it a day, after how long you have struggled and how much you have spent, nobody has any right to criticise whatever decision you make next.
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I know, part of me is kicking myself for putting him through it but the other side of me thinks I would have just carried on spending £££s if I had not, I feel like it has naturally reached a point for me now where I can say enough is enough without wanting to keep going, he did not cope well at the vets, it took a long time for him to recover mentally and I had to spend £400 on ulcer treatment and deal with a very anxious horse.

It's just so hard, I have never had a horse PTS and any animal I have had I could 100% say it was the kindest thing to do at that point due to them being so poorly. He currently looks fine, he walks fine and I have no doubt he would be fine as a field ornament which I think is why I am finding it so hard. It wouldn't make me feel good to spend that much money on him to be in a field somewhere, it would make getting another one quite difficult and I wouldn't be able to enjoy as much. I suppose ultimately I need to decide what is worse: feeling guilty about putting a seemingly happy and fine horse to sleep or struggling financially for what could be a long time so he can live in a field.
 
To quote a very good saying someone came up with recently.

Death is not a welfare issue.

Be good to yourself, whatever you decide.
 
ycbm said:
To quote a very good saying someone came up with recently.

Death is not a welfare issue.

Be good to yourself, whatever you decide.
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Thank you for your continued support through all of this, I have some thinking to do and will have a conversation with the vet tomorrow
 
Mine is different to yours and touch wood, currently sound, but I have serious doubts about whether he would retire. Hes a fence jumper if hes not happy and he gets very upset by other horses and big herds as well as being alone. Last time I was facing this the decision we came to was to give him one go at retirement, if he didnt settle then it was PTS. There was also a time limit on retirement of a year. If he was sound for light work then great, if he wasnt I would have been emotionally distanced enough that PTS was easier on me.

In your shoes I'd be having a last ditch attempt and getting Rob Jackson or Tom Beech out. Tom fixed mine last time when we were sure it was the end of the line. Theres lot of similar stories from other people as well :)
 
I had a beautiful horse who injured his stifle at 9yo. He went through the surgery but 9 months later he was as lame as the day he did it. He was a fairly high maintenance horse who I didn't think would have coped living out in a herd so I made the decision to pts, I felt guilt as I was aware part of that decision was that I couldn't afford the time or money to keep a stabled unridden horse for potentially another 20 years.

A few months later, Mr JB made me a photo book of him, and I was stunned at how much pain the horse had been in, you could clearly see it in the photos but neither I nor anyone who knew him had seen this at the time. I'm so glad I made the decision when I did, as a winter of him being stabled would have been awful for him (he'd been living out all summer).

Animals don't think of the future and the kindest thing you can do is end their suffering.
 
In fairness if you feel he won't come right after being turned away then yes, I'd pts. It's not selfish at all. Unless you have your own land and think he'd be happy retired then it's going to be a significant financial burden as well as a big time commitment and could presumably prevent you enjoying another horse. He won't know a thing about it or your reasons for it. The horse I referred to earlier is really only getting repeated chances because I can keep him at home and have a side project if he breaks again. As soon as I feel he is in persistent pain he will be pts and that's a rubbish thing to consider when you've had them from a foal. But they will never have to worry about it like we do.

Turn away and reassess or pts. And don't feel guilty. You've put him first and still will do. I wouldn't consider the retirement option at that financial and emotional cost.
 
I think the idea of turning away is more favourable as it doesn't feel so sudden and final and if i could find the right place, I think he would be ok living out his days and then if not, i would feel more detached and feel like I had tried what I could. Doing this would definitely hinder me in getting another and prevent me from fully enjoying it which is I guess where the difficulty lies. I am waiting for a call from the vet this morning so will have an honest conversation with her about it.
 
I apologise I haven't read through all the responses. Have you tried a proper equine vet chiropractor (not mctimony)? My girl has several issues behind and as a result can get blocked in her SI. My chiro Alvaro Vela Fernandez (Spanish vet trained to specialise in chiro) really works magic on her, first time he treated her she needed to be seen again within a couple of weeks and now she see's him about once every 5 months. My physio is lovely but she cannot get the same results that the chiro gets. Admittedly my girl is 23 and retired from advanced dressage to hacking and light schooling but could be worth a try?
 
ycbm said:
To quote a very good saying someone came up with recently.

Death is not a welfare issue.

Be good to yourself, whatever you decide.
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i absolutely agree with this and would point out that YOU only get 1 life, and owe it to yourself to enjoy it and follow your dreams.

i am not sure that pursuing an on/off lame horse with a very slim chance of returning to work is a god use of YOUR time, money or pleasure?
 
I've not followed this story but I just want to say that sometimes you have to be realistic about life. If you are rich and have lots of spare time then keep him as a paddock ornament and see that he has a lovely natural life. However, if like many (if not most) of us money and time are massive factors in life, then it's not selfish or unreasonable to have him put to sleep. As some have already mentioned, the horse has no idea about what is going to happen. Please don't feel guilty about doing it, if this is the decision that you eventually take. Plus there's the aspect of will he always be in some sort of discomfort or pain even when retired. Most people won't judge you for making that call, and to quote Ricki Lake, "Those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind". Probably the most intelligent thing I've ever heard an American say.

Not trying to influence your decision either way here, just want you not to feel guilty for whichever choice you make.
 
Where are you based?

I have a field with 2 quiet smaller Horses in, there is room for 1 more if you are stuck for a place.

I am in the same situation as you, I have a 13YO Mare with hock arthritis, she is not happy being ridden even as a light hack. I had used up my insurance money on 4 different treatments including an operation at Rossdales. She did not stay sound for very long and like you every time she had pysio she was sore. I had a second vets opinion and he advised currently he believes there are no treatments that will work for her and I would just be wasting my money. He advised retire. My mare seems happy enough in the field (has been retired since May) but it is not easy, I miss riding massively but cannot afford another Horse whilst my mare is still here. I miss having the social side of things at the stables. I only see my mare 3 times a week and this winter has been a huge struggle, I go up check her, check fence, give hay and leave it is far too muddy to actually do anything with her. I spend roughly £150 on her a month. I cancelled her insurance and have said if she gets seriously injured or becomes seriously lame I will have her PTS, firstly I cannot justify spending any more money on her as selfish as that sounds. Secondly I don't think it will be fair to put her through anymore.

If I am being completely honest I have had no enjoyment from my Horse over the winter. But I do like that she is happy. I am not sure I can do this for potentially the next 10-15 winters though. There is so much I want to do with my life and I need the money to do that.

Feel free to PM me if you want as I completely understand where you are coming from xx
 
Not read it all but maybe you have been going from one thing to another for so long, hoping and waiting for it to work you are now completely worn out as you are running out of things to try.
I think distancing yourself without endless tests/vets and thinking may help you, I would be tempted to turn away, one thing I know it certainly doesn't always work, some just can't cope with it and then the decision is made fairly quickly
By distancing yourself from endless thinking about what to do next, even for a short time, clears the head and makes people think more objectively about it all
Putting a horse down because you have reached the end of the road due to a condition is also not the end of the world, it may just feel like it at the time but when we take any animal on we know we will have to see it through to the end, whether that be selling it on or putting it down.
I know people who have brood mares, when their days are numbered they are given the summer or a couple of months out and then put down
 
be positive said:
I personally would retire but I have my own land and know it is not possible for everyone to do this, so option 2 would be to give him a month or two living out once the weather is nice and have him pts on a sunny day once you have had time to accept it, giving him a bit of time out after a rotten winter being prodded and poked, on box rest etc would make me feel better even though the horse knows nothing about what is going on, I don't think it realistic to commit any more time, money or emotion to a horse that sadly was never going to have a long useful life.
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Totally agree with this. You have done your best and given him a chance. Unfortunately it just wasn't to be. There is nothing wrong with letting him go one sunny day with his nose in a bucket, oblivious to it all xxx
 
I'd PTS. My ex racer, Torres, was similar in the sense of being relatively young with multiple issues. I had turned him away and I remember vividly watching him in the field when I went to feed him, he'd been galloping around with his field companion looking happy. When he stopped and stood still he looked so uncomfortable, shifting his weight on his back legs. It was early summer and he was being munched alive by horseflies regardless of rugs. It was such an obvious, clear cut decision that even turning him away and paying for him to be retired wasn't actually in his best interests.
 
ycbm said:
No, it isn't. The people who do this do it because it makes them feel good to do it. If it would not make you feel good to spend that money and emotional energy, then it is not selfish to make sure that he is never in pain, upset, too cold, to hot, too wet, too bothered by flies or too anything else ever again. He does not know, or care, that he 'could' live for another 10-15 years, only you do.

Do whatever is right for you which is not unkind for him.

I've seen him EF. You know that I told you that I didn't think you should have the operation. What has happened since is what I feared for you and for him. If you decide now to call it a day, after how long you have struggled and how much you have spent, nobody has any right to criticise whatever decision you make next.
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Couldn't say this top paragraph better than you. Ditto, absolutely.
 
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