Some rapes are worse than other?

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1stclassalan

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Our Minister of Justice is in hot water again - Ken Clarke is rarely far from contraversy.

He has made a rash statement that some rapes are worse than others. I post this here as I have the feeling that girls outnumber the blokes many times to one here and this is a very big issue.

He has been forced to retract or modify his first words - I ask - is this fair?

He was after all talking in terms of the legal definition - not the personal experience of a woman.

For instance if a boy and girl get together before their sixteenth birthday - the boy automatically commits statutary rape even if the girl was fully consenting.

But the same charge will levelled at a violent burgular with his desires fixed on old ladies in the middle of the night in their own homes.

To me this clearly demonstrates the some rapes ARE worse than others and it's the law that needs sorting out not the Justice Minister - discuss.
 
Would this (and your other thread) maybe be better in Soap Box? That's where the sort of current affairs threads tend to get discussed.
 
quirky said:
Would this (and your other thread) maybe be better in Soap Box? That's where the sort of current affairs threads tend to get discussed.
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I don't think so because they're not particular pots I wish to bash - they are merely items from the latest news - just like it says on the tin.
 
1stclassalan said:
Our Minister of Justice is in hot water again - Ken Clarke is rarely far from contraversy.

He has made a rash statement that some rapes are worse than others. I post this here as I have the feeling that girls outnumber the blokes many times to one here and this is a very big issue.

He has been forced to retract or modify his first words - I ask - is this fair?

He was after all talking in terms of the legal definition - not the personal experience of a woman.

For instance if a boy and girl get together before their sixteenth birthday - the boy automatically commits statutary rape even if the girl was fully consenting.

But the same charge will levelled at a violent burgular with his desires fixed on old ladies in the middle of the night in their own homes.

To me this clearly demonstrates the some rapes ARE worse than others and it's the law that needs sorting out not the Justice Minister - discuss.
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I wish he would bugger off and join the labour party where his wooly minded tripe would fit right in, oh and take Cameron, goldsmith, may and gummer with him :D
 
I am actually with you and have just discussed this with oh.

Not all rape is brutal and traumatic. i understand what he was trying to get across, he just did it very badly.
 
Having gone through this myself. I would consider what I went through to be at the higher end scale of trauma, well the top :( The example you gave of consenting 15yrs old is not even close to a violent forced rape. So I agree. But depends what else he said tbh.
 
It is a very valid point.

A friend of ours was accused of rape.

he slept with a girl fully consenting not knowing she was 15 (they met in an over 18s club) and to be fair she looks the same age as me so easily done.
Her parents were pushing for the charge, when really they should have concentrated on raising their daughter to not be such a little ho. It was dropped but very scary for him.
 
We were talking about this earlier (a bunch of 20yr old girls).

Fortunately none of us have ever had to go through a rape, and I cannot imagine how horrible it must be for the victem.

We all believe that there are different degrees of rape and there should be different levels of charge. As listen in the OP, a burglar raping old women is very different (imo) to say an 18yr old lad sleeping with his 15yr old girlfriend which are both considered the same severity.

The scenario that came up the most in discussion was if a man and a women were getting drunk in a club, went back to his in a taxi, the women consentingly and just before having sex, or perhaps during the act the women suddenly tells the man to stop, and he doesn't. We were trying to decide if that was the same level of rape and as horrible for the "victim" as say a women jogging who gets grabbed and raped in an alleyway. In our eyes these were different levels of severity... but I think that it is relatively easy to generalise about if you've never been the victim.
 
perfect11s said:
I wish he would bugger off and join the labour party where his wooly minded tripe would fit right in, oh and take Cameron, goldsmith, may and gummer with him :D
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What a silly comment. Ken Clarke is FAR too intelligent - and committed - to be a Labour Party politician. He is a man with high ideals - and the Conservative Party NEED him. He's not a sheep - like so many of the younger MPs - he says what he thinks and believes - and in this instance he's right!

There are VERY different degrees of rape - and they should be judged on the individual circumstances. Date rape - for example - isn't 'right' or 'good' - but in many cases it's a girl saying no at the VERY last moment (or afterwards!) Stranger rape - often with assault and violence - is a very different crime!
 
JanetGeorge said:
There are VERY different degrees of rape - and they should be judged on the individual circumstances
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I 100% agree with this and I don't understand how anyone could argue otherwise? Rape cases can involve all sorts of different factors and the levels of violence and aggression involved can vary hugely. Some rape victims end up dead or with horrific injuries. I think that says a lot about whether some rapes are worse than others. Rape is a despicable crime full stop. But not every case is the same!
 
I completely agree with his words - there are different degrees of rape. I have first hand knowledge of what would be a low level rape - we were going out, I was tipsy, we made out, I fell asleep, I woke up and he was doing it and before I could realise what was happening it was done - there was no violence, I just didn't say yes - yes it was traumatising once I had realised what had happened, but because I didn't stop him he thought it was OK.

How anyone can say that that is as bad as being held down with a knife to your throat, fighting tooth and nail and being forced is beyond belief!
 
Sarah sum1 said:
Having gone through this myself. I would consider what I went through to be at the higher end scale of trauma, well the top :( The example you gave of consenting 15yrs old is not even close to a violent forced rape. So I agree. But depends what else he said tbh.
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I'm sorry to hear that, Sarah.
Xxx
 
ThePinkPony said:
It is a very valid point.

A friend of ours was accused of rape.

he slept with a girl fully consenting not knowing she was 15 (they met in an over 18s club) and to be fair she looks the same age as me so easily done.
Her parents were pushing for the charge, when really they should have concentrated on raising their daughter to not be such a little ho. It was dropped but very scary for him.
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This is rather surprising. Did she say she had been raped? The usual charge would be unlawful sexual intercourse.
 
Ooh, I answered the thread in SB thinking it was this one :o.

I will say it again, Kenneth Clarke is infinitely more qualified than most, as a QC to comment on sentencing terms and I happen to agree with him in what he says.

As an aside, he is a top bloke who is an asset to the Conservatives and would make a great PM imo :).
 
Seafarer said:
This is rather surprising. Did she say she had been raped? The usual charge would be unlawful sexual intercourse.
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The main problem there would be - the police decide the CHARGE - the LAW merely provides the framework - the police nearly always choose the most serious sounding crime regardless of the facts because it looks good in their targets.

Don't forget that Britain is going the way of America in this respect where folk are now charged with "male rape" to complicate matters even further. Old lawyers would have scratched their heads in puzzlement because in days of old one had to be possessed of female anatomy to even entertain the idea of rape.

On the crime itself - though I appreciate vunerable even as a bloke I cannot begin to imagine what some posters here have gone through - and always a worry, I am the father of two daughters.
 
Horrible demonstration of the power of the press. He clearly states that all rapes are serious, but the hysterical reporte jumped on a comment, trying to sensationalise the interview.
Mr Clark is trying to do something about conviction rates. Whatever you think about date rape, you are more likely to be aquitted of a date rape, the victim is more often than not made to give evidence, with the issue being consent. In court you have to prove the case beyond all reasonable doubt, and this point is the one that sees the offender walking - no criminal record, no punishment and the victim feeling like no one believes them.

One day in jail and a conviction for some kind of sexual offence has got to be better than this. At the momant the CPS have little to negotiate with a defence, preventing early guilty plea.

Another example of irresponsible jouernalism.
 
I heard his interview this morning on the news and I thought nothing bad was said. He was just explaining how rape is dealt with in law.

This is just a typical media storm. A politician can't open their mouth these without their words bring twisted, exaggerated and vilified.
( often with good reasons but not in this case )

I hate politics but to me this media frenzy is ridiculous.
 
I sort of agree with what he was saying, but think he said it badly.
There are cases, which people have already mentioned, where a boy has met a girl (Under 16) at a club or wherver and had no idea she was underage etc.
 
I noticed that last night. The female reporter was getting really worked up and i thought the things she was saying were purely idiotic. in the end i literally had to turn over.
 
I know a little more than some people about this topic if you know what I mean, while I am not happy about a potential 50% reduction for admitting before trial, does something similar not happen anyway???

I completely agree with what KC said, obviously these incidents vary in trauma and violence. A girl who is too drunk to make a decision about a 1 night stand can claim rape these days but IMO is less likely to be as traumatised as a sober person who is grabbed in the street and assaulted with violence.

KC always says it as he sees it and is usually not far off the mark, the press needs to back off and take the underlying message not take the words out of context to make news on a slow day. Find a cute fluffy puppy story to finish on if it's a slow day.
 
Spotsrock said:
I know a little more than some people about this topic if you know what I mean, while I am not happy about a potential 50% reduction for admitting before trial, does something similar not happen anyway???

I completely agree with what KC said, obviously these incidents vary in trauma and violence. A girl who is too drunk to make a decision about a 1 night stand can claim rape these days but IMO is less likely to be as traumatised as a sober person who is grabbed in the street and assaulted with violence.

KC always says it as he sees it and is usually not far off the mark, the press needs to back off and take the underlying message not take the words out of context to make news on a slow day. Find a cute fluffy puppy story to finish on if it's a slow day.
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it does - it is 33% at the moment - for all crimes not just rape.
 
1stclassalan said:
Don't forget that Britain is going the way of America in this respect where folk are now charged with "male rape" to complicate matters even further. Old lawyers would have scratched their heads in puzzlement because in days of old one had to be possessed of female anatomy to even entertain the idea of rape.
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Are you suggesting that men can't be raped? In what sense does it complicate matters :confused: If a man rapes another man then surely he should be arrested and charged?
 
I also agree some are worse than others. To me it's common sense isn't it?

Being raped by a drunken partner would not be as horrendous as being dragged into some bushes by a complete stranger and being raped. IMO
Both are truly awful, of course, but psychologically far more damage would be caused by the latter.
 
Haven't read all the details but I agree. There's an awful lot of difference between a bloke who looses control when he's had a few too many and bonks a lass without realising she didn't actually want it (although I'm not sure if many of these sorts of cases would actually make it to court) to a serial violant rapist who mutilates and/or beats up his victims.

I do get a bit suprised by some of the comments about girls being drunk and not "remembering" if they said yes or no. I'm sure the CPS wouldn't be able to get a case together for that. As far as I've read, it's extremely difficult to build a rape case and get a conviction.

Just because a woman is pished, doesn't mean she's asking to be taken advantage of, does the same theory apply to prostitutes? What happened to the "sisterhood"?
 
Saucisson said:
Haven't read all the details but I agree. There's an awful lot of difference between a bloke who looses control when he's had a few too many and bonks a lass without realising she didn't actually want it (although I'm not sure if many of these sorts of cases would actually make it to court) to a serial violant rapist who mutilates and/or beats up his victims.

I do get a bit suprised by some of the comments about girls being drunk and not "remembering" if they said yes or no. I'm sure the CPS wouldn't be able to get a case together for that. As far as I've read, it's extremely difficult to build a rape case and get a conviction.

Just because a woman is pished, doesn't mean she's asking to be taken advantage of, does the same theory apply to prostitutes? What happened to the "sisterhood"?
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I don't think anyone's saying someone drunk is asking to be taken advantage of but there is a definite difference between someone initially 'consenting' when they've had a few too many and then changing their mind as opposed to (as other people have given examples of) someone just out and about minding their own business, being forcibly raped/attacked.

I certainly think what he said was correct - or what he meant by what he was saying at least but it is yet another case of the media twisting everything!
 
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