Some rapes are worse than other?

I am actually a bit sad to read some of the views on this board, everyone is entitled to their opinion but I really thought we had moved on in the last 20 years. Of course, each rape is different and the law identifies mitigitating and aggravating circumstances, like all crimes, but this does not change the seriosuness or impact of a rape to the person it happened to.

Speak to anyone who works with rape victims and actually being raped by a drunken (or non-drunk) partner/friend is equally as horrendous as being attacked by a stranger. The violation of that persons body goes hand in hand with the violation of trust. Destruction of everything you believe to be 'safe'. The impact of this can last for years if not a lifetime. People raped by those they know often suffer more shame and guilt due to attitudes such as I have read here, the belief that they are not entitled to the same amount of sympathy as those attacked by a stranger.

It is human nature I guess to believe that some victims of rape may have brought it on themselves, we don't want to believe that those around us, those we love and trust could be capable of such a crime and if the victim was in some way responsible then we can tell ourselves that rape is something that happens to other people, that by avoiding such behaviours we can avoid being raped. Sadly it can and does happen to anyone and anywhere. The only way to fight it is to change opinions which infer that there is ever a time or place where a woman or man does not have a right to dictate what happens to their own body.

With ref to Ken Clarke, he probably did just make a bit of a bumbling mess of the interview but as justice secretary he really should know better. And let's not forget that statutory rape and the age of consent are there to protect vulnerable young women.
 
I am actually a bit sad to read some of the views on this board, everyone is entitled to their opinion but I really thought we had moved on in the last 20 years. Of course, each rape is different and the law identifies mitigitating and aggravating circumstances, like all crimes, but this does not change the seriosuness or impact of a rape to the person it happened to.
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I think that a few people on this thread are commenting from personal experience, so their oinions are highly relevant.

I don't believe that it's a case of not 'having moved on in the last 20 years', more people understanding that some cases simply are more serious than others.
 
I think the problem is though there are many cases where someone has cried rape when in fact it is not the case and that's when problems arise as in some instances the 'victim' is in fact attempting to get revenge or has some similar agenda and often an innocent person can be labelled a rapist as in most cases people will side with the woman/victim (in the majority of cases it is a woman).

I don't think anyone would dispute rape is traumatic but I think they us a grey area in such cases where the person may have consented at the time but then, in the cold light of day they decide they didn't want to do it and then say they have been raped when it is not actually the case! That must be equally as horrible for the accused.
 
I usually stay out of controversial threads but this time I just can't. I am genuinely astounded by some of the attitudes on this thread. The idea that 'date rape' is somehow not really a crime is repugnant to me. Just because you know your rapist it doesn't mean that it's not 'serious'. Perhaps murder isn't as bad if the victim knew the murderer or it's actually ok to be burgled if it's your neighbours that do it?

An example for you. A woman. Mid twenties. She had been going out with her boyfriend for a few years. They both go on a night out - she will be staying at her flat, he will stay with a friend. She gets drunk, goes home and passes out. She awakens to find that her very drunk boyfriend has let himself into her flat and is having anal sex with her (the couple had previously chatted about this, more than once, and she was very clear about that not being something she was ever going to be comfortable with). She struggles and makes it obvious she wants him to stop immediately. He forces her head into the bedclothes and carries on. When he finished he staggers out the door and stays with his pal after all. She is left bleeding and traumatised.

This happened to a friend of mine. Despite the pleas of her friends she didn't press charges because she was sure that, because they were a couple and both had been drinking, nobody would believe her. Seems she was right. :mad::mad::mad:
 
Put it this way, My dad had an affair and lo and behold 3 months later my mum is telling everyone how he used to beat her and rape her....

its bull****, pure and simple. and i too know from experience what it is like to go through that-though apparently according to mother that was my fault, obviously, being 7 years old and oh so responsible for whom i was left with)

The family all expected this, she lives in a fecked up fantasy world of her own.

BUT if she took it further, whats to say a jury wouldnt believer her-she can be incredibly believeable sometimes. I know 100% mum is lying, but i spent 17 years in that household, i know when her tears arent real, and the fact that she said the first time he did it there was no law against rape within a marriage when in fact the law came in the year i was born, 7 years previously.

i can tell when fantasy land is rearing its head. Who is going to believe my dad- a man with ABH and GBH convictions (yeah my parents are FABULOUS, im so proud :o) wouldnt go further and rape his wife?

Rape cases should be looked at far more seriously than they are today. .
 
andraste said:
I usually stay out of controversial threads but this time I just can't. I am genuinely astounded by some of the attitudes on this thread. The idea that 'date rape' is somehow not really a crime is repugnant to me. Just because you know your rapist it doesn't mean that it's not 'serious'. Perhaps murder isn't as bad if the victim knew the murderer or it's actually ok to be burgled if it's your neighbours that do it?

An example for you. A woman. Mid twenties. She had been going out with her boyfriend for a few years. They both go on a night out - she will be staying at her flat, he will stay with a friend. She gets drunk, goes home and passes out. She awakens to find that her very drunk boyfriend has let himself into her flat and is having anal sex with her (the couple had previously chatted about this, more than once, and she was very clear about that not being something she was ever going to be comfortable with). She struggles and makes it obvious she wants him to stop immediately. He forces her head into the bedclothes and carries on. When he finished he staggers out the door and stays with his pal after all. She is left bleeding and traumatised.

This happened to a friend of mine. Despite the pleas of her friends she didn't press charges because she was sure that, because they were a couple and both had been drinking, nobody would believe her. Seems she was right. :mad::mad::mad:
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The trouble is, how is it possible to convict her boyfriend without also convicting, in another case, a perfectly innocent man who has been wrongly accused by a vindictive ex-girlfriend?

Our system of law does require evidence "beyond reasonable doubt", and that is to avoid innocent people being punished, as far as possible.

How would you change things to get a conviction in your friend's case, with any evidence of violence, or even the act itself, gone by the time she told you, without putting at risk a man with a vindictive woman making claims against him?
 
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cptrayes - I completely understand what you are saying and I can't see a solution either. What shocked and saddened me was not the inefficiencies or difficulties of the legal system but the seemingly prevalent attitude that some rapes are 'obviously' more serious than others and that date or marital rape is a less serious crime.

Even if we were somehow able to wave a magic wand and find a solution to the problem you outline I suspect rape conviction rates would remain relatively low as long as the pernicious and reprehensible belief that some women are 'asking for it' remains. :(
 
andraste said:
cptrayes - I completely understand what you are saying and I can't see a solution either. What shocked and saddened me was not the inefficiencies or difficulties of the legal system but the seemingly prevalent attitude that some rapes are 'obviously' more serious than others and that date or marital rape is a less serious crime.

Even if we were somehow able to wave a magic wand and find a solution to the problem you outline I suspect rape conviction rates would remain relatively low as long as the pernicious and reprehensible belief that some women are 'asking for it' remains. :(
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But it's not the belief that some women are asking for it that results in low conviction rates. It's the impossibility of knowing whether you are listening to an extremely manipulative and vindictive woman who is a great actress, or a genuine victim. The benefit of the doubt MUST be given to the defendant, we cannot simply lock up every man accused of rape because a woman says so. Some women go to great lengths to lie. There is even a case of a stalker who stole a used condom from her stalkee's rubbish and used it to provide DNA evidence against him.

If there is proof, there is proof, whether some of the jury feel she was "asking for it", or not. These days they will receive very strong guidance from the judge that her dress, intoxication and previous sexual history are not relevant. The problem with conviction rates is that there is rarely enough evidence to safely convict and if we tinker with that then more innocent men will be jailed along with the guilty.

Difficult as it obviously is, it is within the possibilities of a victim to recover. There are many examples of this. It is not within the power of a man wrongly jailed for rape to recover his life ever again. For the rest of his days, after getting out of jail, he will have to report his whereabouts to the police and is going to find it very difficult to work again in any decently paid or professional job with that on his record.
 
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As a woman, i certainly do believe that there is a minority of women who should expect nothing less by the way they behave.

Girls who get so blind drunk, wearing next to nothing, wandering off with whoever they grab at kicking out time.

Ive been included in conversations with friends who are like ''err...did i shag him last night..OMG i cant remember hahahah' ... 'OMg i woke up at this house and it was like 20 miles away from home lol, how did i get here lol'' !!!!!! I know of girls who have cried rape because they have a boyfriend and dont want to be seen as cheats. ive had guy mates who have been told this and are gutted to find out their ex is with the guy who supposedly raped them.
 
andraste said:
I am genuinely astounded by some of the attitudes on this thread. The idea that 'date rape' is somehow not really a crime is repugnant to me. Just because you know your rapist it doesn't mean that it's not 'serious'.
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I don't thing anyone has suggested that 'date rape' isn't a crime! Obviously it is - and a serious crime at that!! Apart from the actual rape there's the dreadful breach of trust involved. BUT - date rape often (not always) happens because both parties are drunk, or arguing. The one may well have led the other on - and possibly says no at the last moment to 'punish' the other. There are many different scenarios where - while the rape is not excusable - there is SOME mitigation.

But there is very little chance for ANY mitigation in stranger rape - perhaps at knife point - where the victim fears for their very life if they resist. Or where a young man rapes, terrorises and brutalizes an elderly woman in her own home!

So yes, all rapes are crimes - but there ARE different 'degrees'!
 
I was raped and left with scar tissue that causes problems. Whilst I certainly wasn't dragged off the street it has caused me great distress throughout my life.

However, a 'friend' at Uni was also 'raped'. She got drunk with a decent guy that we all knew really well. Got so drunk he carried her home. She then woke up as he was putting her into bed and according to him acted in a manner that suggested she wanted it-including saying things that weren't yes but were indicative of yes-such as 'so are you coming here then' and 'take off that shirt'. He had sex with her-she was partially awake for it but still offering yes type phrases (which by the way she remembers saying). The next morning she woke up, realised what had happened and decided he'd raped her because she was so drunk she didn't know what was happening? And went to the police.

Poor sod got dragged in by police etc. It didn't get to court but that's a pretty bad reputation to have.

I'm not suggesting she wasn't hugely upset, but it is easy to forget, due to the emotions of the crime, that false accusations of rape (or true accusations but where the details are sketchy eg underage but consenting) destroy men's lives.
 
Bigginge said:
I am actually a bit sad to read some of the views on this board, everyone is entitled to their opinion but I really thought we had moved on in the last 20 years. Of course, each rape is different and the law identifies mitigitating and aggravating circumstances, like all crimes, but this does not change the seriosuness or impact of a rape to the person it happened to.

Speak to anyone who works with rape victims and actually being raped by a drunken (or non-drunk) partner/friend is equally as horrendous as being attacked by a stranger. The violation of that persons body goes hand in hand with the violation of trust. Destruction of everything you believe to be 'safe'. The impact of this can last for years if not a lifetime. People raped by those they know often suffer more shame and guilt due to attitudes such as I have read here, the belief that they are not entitled to the same amount of sympathy as those attacked by a stranger.

It is human nature I guess to believe that some victims of rape may have brought it on themselves, we don't want to believe that those around us, those we love and trust could be capable of such a crime and if the victim was in some way responsible then we can tell ourselves that rape is something that happens to other people, that by avoiding such behaviours we can avoid being raped. Sadly it can and does happen to anyone and anywhere. The only way to fight it is to change opinions which infer that there is ever a time or place where a woman or man does not have a right to dictate what happens to their own body.

With ref to Ken Clarke, he probably did just make a bit of a bumbling mess of the interview but as justice secretary he really should know better. And let's not forget that statutory rape and the age of consent are there to protect vulnerable young women.
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Thank you for this.

I highly doubt that false accusations are as common as some people here are making out. A friend of mine took her rapist to court and had to give evidence--a tremendously emotionally harrowing experience for her. It's no picnic to sit in court and give evidence against a man whose lawyers want to prove that you were somehow asking for it. So I highly doubt a woman would put herself through this experience for no good reason.

I also had a friend who worked in rape crisis counseling and still has nightmares from the stories she heard. :(

Re date rape--statistically seen, most women are likely to be raped, assaulted, beaten, or murdered by someone they know, not by a faceless stranger. If your brother-in-law or ex-boyfriend or neighbour rapes you, it's still rape, even if you knew the attacker. Old women and children get raped--it's not just a case of the way you were dressed.

At the very least, Kenneth Clarke should have chosen his words with greater sensitivity.
 
False accusations don't usually get to court or how would we know they are false.
As far as I know malicious complaints of rape are not counted or the figures released at all but I have still seen some cases which I believe were completely malicious.
Unfortunately these cases still taint the lives of the people the complaints were made against. On some occassions they have to move house to escape the baying mobs of street justice for a crime they did not comitt.

I also agree with Mr Clark that some cases are worse than others, I can't believe that anyone who has ever had dealings with those affected by rape would think any other way.

I think that people are not understanding what rape is and have their minds fixed on the knife weilding mask wearing assailant, which is not a true view of what a rapist is.

Just my point of view from 10 years of dealing with the victims of this crime.
 
I'm coming back in here - a fabulous discussion - my heart goes out to all those posters directly affected.

A good variety of scenarios have been painted by all but don't forget - Mr Clarke's words were aimed at SENTENCING of guys already convicted so the rights and wrongs of how they got to be in that predicament don't really apply.

That said, I'll add a few old fashioned opinions of my own - my sort of bloke protects women and the vunerable so takes a very dim view of those who abuse. So if I heard of a guy breaking-in or even letting himself in with enough conciousness to engage in "unatural acts" - I'd be reaching for a rusty razorblade as punishment!
 
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