Some support please.

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Cedars

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Evening all.

Right, we have a mare. She's 15.2, TBx, bay.

She's a proper mare - really moody, ears back constantly, pretends to bite, waves legs, etc. However, she 99% of the time doesn't actually get you.

In October 09, we had a really nasty accident, where she reared up and over on my OHs mother, smashed through a garage door, bit through both her lips, smashed poll into ground etc. Nearly killed my MIL. Obviously had the vet out straight away, and long story short, in December 09, she had surgery for kissing spines and treatment for gastric ulcers.

For many reasons, we've not brought her back into work until recently. She has been given the all clear from the vet, the back lady, the physio and the dentist. So basically, she is fully healthy. We will, however, be getting the vet out for another quick once over after today.

I just want advice on what you would be doing at this point.

We began with three weeks of lunging. She hugely resisted the pessoa so we gave up, focussed on just getting her back into work and then we'd go from there. So, she had three weeks of lunging, and we've been riding for about 2 weeks. Really loose rein, no real contact, no hard work at all, just walking round, a bit of trotting.

Today, my OH pushed on for a canter and she went completely nuts. Head between legs, put in an almighty buck, I have NO idea how my OH sat it, he should have been sent flying to Wales. OH pulled her head up, came back to trot, then walk, then tried again, and she again went orbital.

So what would you do at this point? Assuming she isn't in pain (which we will get checked)?? She is in her box every night and 2 or 3 days a week, but out the others. She is being exercised probably once every 3 days.

Should we try to be lunging her EVERY day, even if only 10mins? So she doesnt build up stiffness?
Should we be trying the pessoa again even though she was so resistant to it?

Any support would be appreciated, I feel like we're reaching the end of the road with her =[

H xx
 
no advice for you i'm afraid. But when you say she resisted the pessoa, what did she do?
Riding - have you tried taking a contact or have you left the reins loose? Just in case she's thinking, working on her own terms.
Does she canter on the lunge?
 
Wow - she doesn't sound the most pleasant of ponies!!! :(

TBH though I wouldn't worry too much about the exploding - not massively out of the ordinary I wouldn't have said for a horse that's been out of work for so long. If I were you, considering the problems she's had an everything, I'd forget cantering for a bit and do some good, long steady rides with her. This will hopefully help build up her muscles etc. so she's ready for more hard work and also should knock a bit of the excitement out of her, if that's the issue.

Was it in the school or on a hack when she did the bronco horse?
 
She completely resists a contact, if you do restrict her head at all she tantrums and due to her past of rearing we dont push it. The faster the pace the more she hates it as well.

On the pessoa she just bucked, reared, farted, etc etc etc. Just totally hated it.

We have been building up her fitness slowly but maybe we do need to come back to walk/trot. We havent hacked her out since being back as I'm very very nervous to let anyone go on their own on her, and our other horse is too strong for me. But we might need to bite the bullet.

Thank you so much guys. Its just so gutting as when you do take the time with her, she is such a cutie. She is just the lead mare and wants to prove it!
 
Is she good in traffic? If so I would be hacking her out all the time for now, just in walk. Short rides and building up to a little trot work uphill. If shes been out of work for some time then maybe its her way of telling you she is finding the work difficult, ie the lunging, pessoa. I have last year brought my own mare back into work after a tendon injury. This is how I got her going again. We dont do the school for now, not until summer when shes less spooky and has daily turnout which we dont have at the mo. Hacking out will stimulate her mentally and physically will tire her more.

Hope she comes good, poor mare and poor you having an accident like that. As you say, if your getting her checked out along the way then at least your covering that angle. Good luck with her x
 
Tbh, my old fella, when he was a young fella, if he wasn't ridden for 3 days, he would be a nut job for about 20 mins before settling into work. He would be even worse if he had been stabled for 24hours for whatever reason. Similar things, super sharpness, explosive bucks.. Just too much energy I think! Moved him to 24/7 turnout and he was a different horse!

Also, from what I've heard (never had a horse with KS, though do know a couple of people who have) it takes a long time for the horse to feel 100%. I would walk her (on a hack with a quiet horse, less likely to get grumpy) for at least a month, building up the lengths of the ride and incorporating hill work, every day for at least a month. Also would try to stable her less.

And as usual, check teeth/back ect ect ect, is she still sore from the op?
 
I'm really not in a position to advise, but I can sympathise. If she were mine I think I would try Izzwizz's approach and keep it low key.
 
Could it maybe be a trust issue? I think if she was mine I would be working mainly on ground work for a time- progressing to short walks, trots and then on to canter. It was a pretty traumatic thing she went through last year and something she is not likely to forget quickly. She needs time to heal psychologically too. Hope it all works out xx
 
Sorry if this is a bit long but here goes ...

I have had two horses go through KSS. Both had to be lunged for a minimum of 6 weeks before i could go anywhere near them with a saddle. One was resistant in the Pessoa, the other was fine. The resistant one was also explosive when first ridden. This continued for around 2 months- I just hacked and continued lunging. Both boys are now fine and back jumping happily and competing.

The second horse had the worst KS Willesley had ever seen, so he was fab after the op as he had been in so much pain. The other one was more mild. However, the first one had a lot more scar tissue left post-op so they both now have to have saddles with really wide gullets ( but not wide at the front if that makes sense?) One prob your girl may be having is that your saddle gullet is pinching the scar tissue which is really painful. It doesn't mean your saddle doesn't fit, just that it's not quite right for a post KSS horse!

It does take a VERY long time for them to get over KSS-pain memory can also be a big problem. I hope she gets better soon. Just hang in there! Feel free to pm me if I can help at all. Xxx
 
Did I read this right? - she's been back in work for about 5 weeks after a very long time off having , amongst other treatment, surgery for KS? If so I certainly wouldn't be cantering yet, she's unlikely to have built up enough muscle or stamina to do much more than walk, I wouldn't have thought.
So if she were mine I'd follow the advice about slow hacks, starting off with very short hacks and gradually building up the length and difficulty of terrain. if possible.
Having had a TBx mare who behaved in asimilar way, I would also look at her diet and remove everything but grass for a while to see if that made any difference to her behaviour.
It does sound as though she still has issues with her neck. Does your physio/vet do acupuncture? We have seen extremely good result, using acu.
Good luck, she does sound difficult.
 
Yes, far too early to be thinking you are at the end of the road. I wouldn't be cantering her for a couple more months at least. She needs to be working properly over her back and bending laterally correctly before you even attempt it. Cantering with a rider is extremely difficult for a horse coming back into work. I have only just started with my boy after his hock operation in June. I have been riding him for 4 months. He is well behaved but his canter is awful, though improving. My mare exploded once when I cantered her too soon after 10 weeks box rest. She bucked like a bronco and then threw herself back into a rear, every time I even asked for canter. She came right in the end though.
 
Thanks guys will try and answer all these.

Bitless - tried it once, not strong enough, she just f...ed off into the next county when hacking. She used to point to point so when she thinks she can run, she does.

Feed - she is getting nothing but grass and a handful of chaff to mix her supplement into.

Hacking - ATM far too scared to take her out the school as she will not ride in a contact and basically just goes where and when she wants to. I may lead her out in hand with someone sat on her to begin with though.

Trust issue - I don't think so, she would walk through fire with me and my oh in hand so I don't think it's that. Her mareyness is just ecause she's lead mare and it's just her. I think.

We were beginning cantering on vets advice as although she's not been in work properly since the op in about October she was on the vets advice and was up to on the lunge for half an hour, long trots plus 5 circuits of canter twice each rein. So there is a level offices there and the vet had recommended it. But back to walk trot for us I think!!

Accupuncture/neck problems - our physio is the best in the country and does think she has any problems. But I will keep accupuncture in mind for our other boy, interesting that it's worked so well!

Re Willesley, hmm... Ours was supposedly 'worst he'd ever seen' too......!
 
I also would not be cantering her yet and I'm afraid would question the vet on that.

She needs to work long and low and stretching to build up the muscle in her back so she is strong enough to support the rider, particularly after KS surgery.

How does she work on the lunge and what are you lunging her in?

Can you/OH long rein well? If so it may be easier to get her to work into a contact as the contact will be live and elastic and you can insist on contact without fear of getting decked.
 
Hi, sorry to hear you are having trouble! I agree with the others regarding work to be done!

Just regarding the contact issue I have an ex racer who struggles with contact especially when she's been off work fir whatever reason, I ride her in a dr cooks bitless and If I feel she needs more breaks we have a Mylar combination bit that she loves it has 3 rollers on it and she just accepted it instantly! Good luck hope you manage to sort her!
 
Well if your vet told you to I suppose you only did what he said but personally I would start fitness work with at least 4 weeks of walking on hacks, no lunging, no trotting/cantering and if that's not safe I would do it with ACP or one of those long acting sedative injections. Follow that with 4 weeks of walk and increased periods of trot and only then think of cantering and lunging.

She could also be bucking in response to remembered pain which is quite a nuisance but understandable. I don't have any experience of post KS horses but have heard from friends that they needed saddles with wider gullets to avoid any contact with the area that used to be painful and some people have found their horses liked treeless because they give an entirely different feeling.

Best of luck with her, she doesn't sound like the easiest of horses.
 
Did I read this right? - she's been back in work for about 5 weeks after a very long time off having , amongst other treatment, surgery for KS? If so I certainly wouldn't be cantering yet, she's unlikely to have built up enough muscle or stamina to do much more than walk, I wouldn't have thought.
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I agree. And I'm also not suprised she objected so violently to the passoa - again taking in to account the length of time off and the surgery she had.

Keep her in walk - get her out of the school to some safe hacking with a good baby sitter and build up her fitness and stamina from there.

Ultimately she may be a field ornatment - but you need to give her a chance. And if you don't feel confident yourself, do you know a good nagsman that will help????
 
flamehead said:
Re Willesley, hmm... Ours was supposedly 'worst he'd ever seen' too......!
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I guess they say that to make us feel better then! Did your girl have hers done at Willesley? If so, why don't you give Svend a call and ask him his thoughts? He has been really helpful with both of mine when they have had little oops's coming back into work!
 
Ye she was done at Willesley. I may give him a ring.

When she freaked at the Pessoa, it was completely loose. No tension in it at all so it wasn't forcing her head anywhere. She went happily in it for 6 weeks previously so I don't know what that was about. Hmmm.

We are considering changing her bit to the NS starter as it's worked wonders for our other horse. We've got one anyway so it's worth a try!!

These bloody horses.
 
I have no experience of KSS so I can't help there.....but have you considered a magnetic back pad?

My horse had a sore back when I bought him, from a badly fitting saddle- wasn't keen to be mounted etc. Nightmare tacking up etc.

I used one of those equilibrium magnetic back pads on him in the stable overnight.....it really seemed to help him. Did lots of massage/stretches too. He's fine now- but I periodically use it if he's been working hard as he hasn't got great topline yet.

Just a thought:)

(PS got mine off e-bay)
 
Agree with others, I would go back to walk hacks for a while. I would question your vet about the work he expects her to be doing and probably get some second opinions....5 circuits of canter on each rein is a lot of work to ask your mare to be doing at this stage!
My friend had a horse with severe KS and had the op, after his time off he was walked for around 6 weeks, this then progressed to 4-6 weeks of walk and trot work, lunging...and after all of that was then allowed to start some light canter work. He became fit and well and started low level eventing again.

If you can get a safe horse to go out with then I would get out hacking on her, if you are worried about her behaviour then take her for lots of walks in hand maybe.

I would also agree about getting her saddle checked out perhaps? My friend had to have a wider saddle so the panels do not come into contact with the area that used to be painful, she may also have some sore scar tissue in that area.

Could you look into getting a tens machine? My friend used one for a short time every day, not sure if it helped (don't know much about them)...but her vet advised to get one, showed her how to use it, and think they are quite cheap and easy to get hold of.

As Amymay said, she could eventually be a field ornament but good to give her a chance.
Hope you get is sorted :)
 
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Izzwizz said:
Is she good in traffic? If so I would be hacking her out all the time for now, just in walk. Short rides and building up to a little trot work uphill. If shes been out of work for some time then maybe its her way of telling you she is finding the work difficult, ie the lunging, pessoa. I have last year brought my own mare back into work after a tendon injury. This is how I got her going again. We dont do the school for now, not until summer when shes less spooky and has daily turnout which we dont have at the mo. Hacking out will stimulate her mentally and physically will tire her more.

Hope she comes good, poor mare and poor you having an accident like that. As you say, if your getting her checked out along the way then at least your covering that angle. Good luck with her x
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Agree with this - get her out and about and going forward - I would also be lungeing her every time before you ride and make sure she canters on both reins on the lunge. If the vet has given her the all clear, this sounds like learnt response.
 
try not to give up it will be so rewarding when it goes right !! i would say lots and lots of walking and persevere !! also try lots of lunging and keep putting passoa on until she gives in !
 
5 circuits of canter on each rein is a lot of work to ask your mare to be doing at this stage! But you were only following your vets advice
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I don't think that Wilsley would have advised this - and wonder if OP has got the exercise regime mixed up???
 
amymay said:
I don't think that Wilsley would have advised this - and wonder if OP has got the exercise regime mixed up???
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No, the 5 circuits of canter was where she was when we'd been lunging her previously on vets recommendation. She's nowhere near that now.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Did I read this right? - she's been back in work for about 5 weeks after a very long time off having , amongst other treatment, surgery for KS? If so I certainly wouldn't be cantering yet, she's unlikely to have built up enough muscle or stamina to do much more than walk, I wouldn't have thought.
So if she were mine I'd follow the advice about slow hacks, starting off with very short hacks and gradually building up the length and difficulty of terrain. if possible.
.
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My thoughts exactly.

I'd stick to just walking for quite some time and still go steady with the lunge work also.

She's obviously still going to re-act the same with her attitude towards ridden work or lunge work as no doubt she's associating some of it with pain even if she's had the all clear now now.

So its your chance to get her on your side, show her the way slowly, make it easy for her so enjoys her ridden work again.

Good luck.
 
I would probably use something simple like a chambon to get her working the back and build up some muscle

Reference the alpha mare thing, you could consider something out of the box, like lying her down. It would help her submit (in a nice way) and realise that humans are the alphas
 
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