Something stronger than a Pelham for a tank

SuperCoblet

SuperCoblet

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Was just looking through the bit thread and thinking 'why do I put up with him tanking off and trying to stop in a Pelham when it's never worked?'

He's built like a tank, runs like a tank and thinks like a tank! It's usually just on cross country or funrides, once he gets it in his head, he's off, sets his neck and goes. I use a Pelham with 2 reins, I'm not the strongest person in the world. There's no chance of turning, he just rears and sets off again.

It might sound really harsh but I need something that he will go 'ooh, that hurts I need to stop' sort of thing because he gets so dangerous. Of course I don't want to hurt him but with summer coming someone is going to het hurt by his actions and I need that bit more control.
Any ideas would be fab :)
 
longer shanks or a different type of pelham - swales or something... I suspect he'd just rear until you release and set off again though if that's his current MO..
 
I had very little brakes but friend kept recommending cheltenham gag - if your chap tucks his head in then it works by lifting head - works for my chap!

I tried gags, curbs etc but this works the best and has even stopped him out hunting.. eventually !

on fun rides, xc or hunting I would ride on just the gag (dont even bother attaching snaffle rein) but for everyday then ride on snaffle and have gag rein knotted over neck so can pick it up if need be (pick it up at the start of fast work so you are ready)
 
Hanoverian pelham...if you want brakes that much.

However, I find with a horse that is seriously that ignorant when strong, I prefer going straight back to a normal snaffle. If it's going to run through the bit regardless of what's in his mouth, no damage is being done. I'd rather know if we ended up stagging a jump, that I'm not going to haul its back teeth out in the process of getting caught out over one....
 
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I could show you any number that would, as you say, make your horse pay attention. They are western bits though.

http://www.pleasantridge.ca/show_bits.htm

One of my Boarders uses this on her horse, lovely boy, just likes to take hold and do his own thing though, this one, he respects. It is a Rutledge Roper, used with a chain of course.

657.jpg


...and not quite as bad as it would appear.

http://www.pfiwestern.com/pfi/western.wear/itemdetl.html?item=657

There is an English bit that has the same sort of mouthpiece, I just cannot remember the name of it off the top of my head.
 
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Thanks all, I should have told you his other bits :rolleyes:
Tom thumb has come up a lot, however he's already in this for show jumping, it's not exactly good breaks, but omg it turns him! My instructor just says we don't need breaks going against the clock :D

He's also in a snaffle for hacking and he's (never used to be) quite sane out hacking. And it just made my think if he's in that 70% of the time when he does have his Pelham he might think more of it.

My friend has a Cheltenham gag which I think I might try on his as I don't want to be buying all these bits if he's not going to listen to them and I feel mean :rolleyes: :D :D
 
Enfys said:
I could show you any number that would, as you say, make your horse pay attention. They are western bits though.

http://www.pleasantridge.ca/show_bits.htm

One of my Boarders uses this on her horse, lovely boy, just likes to take hold and do his own thing though, this one, he respects. It is a Rutledge Roper, used with a chain of course.

657.jpg


...and not quite as bad as it would appear.

http://www.pfiwestern.com/pfi/western.wear/itemdetl.html?item=657

There is an English bit that has the same sort of mouthpiece, I just cannot remember the name of it off the top of my head.
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Sam Marsh :) http://www.horsebitbank.com/sam-marsh-pelham-447.phtml
 
Why not also work on strengthening yourself as well? You say you aren't the strongest person in the world, so you could do some weights and particularly some core strength work, so that you aren't pulled forwards out of the saddle when he wants to go. Instead of pulling on both reins, what happens when you sit deep in your saddle or pull with the outside rein only?
 
I can personally recommend a Myler short shank combination, I put my 'darling' in one for six months, and it completely changed his attitude, so much so that for the past 15 months we have been back in his french link snaffle.

He used to throw such tantrums when out and being asked to do something he didn't want to do, e.g canter rather than gallop, to the stage that on a couple of occasions he threw his head vertical and still took off (as I've had him clocked at 28mph flat out), that wasn't a fun ride!

The myler immediately stopped the 'I'm doing this whether you like it or not' attitude and within a few weeks he no longer threw his head in the air. After schooling him on with the myler for a few months we went back into his snaffle and have never looked back.

Patricia at http://www.abitdifferent.co.uk is wonderful and will answer your queries, she also hires the bits out.

Good luck, hope you find a solution that works.
 
I was also going to suggest a myler combi. Lovely bits as they work on different areas other than just the mouth and in the long run alot kinder than a some of the bit mentioned if you are going to be a bit heavy with your hands to stop him. I would also suggest some schooling when you are out on the cross country course etc rather than just trying to get him to go.

I also disagree with your instructor about having breaks when you are in the jump off. If you can hold him better your turns will come much smoother and quicker.
 
I used to have a mare that was an absolute PIG to hunt, was just impossible to keep together, she just wanted to run! Military bit sorted her :D
 
Am afraid I would be rather concerned about the advice your instructor is giving you, of course you need breaks whether your jumping a clear round or against the clock. What happens when you need to adjust strides and turn and things IMO it's a recipe for disaster.
For the bit it's trial and error what works on one horse it won't on another am a big fan of the Waterford if something is leaning and taking off.
 
if hes setting his neck and leaning on you, something with a waterford mouthpiece should be useful as they cant brace against it.

having said that i adore my cheltenham gag with my strong one- tried so many "stronger" bits but found he would still put his head down and go, this is like a snaffle most of the time and he loves it
 
There is an English bit that has the same sort of mouthpiece, I just cannot remember the name of it off the top of my head.[/QUOTE]


Its called a Sam Marsh Pelham. That bit would work a treat as I've tried it. Was told not to jump in it though! Will cost about £90 too!
 
I have to say that I found a waterford mouthpiece magic for my horse that just leans, takes the bit & tanks off!!

For excitable times, a hanging cheek waterford & a grackle - cant set his jaw against me & cannot lean - found it fantastic!! :)
 
I just have the peanut cheltenham gag - but you can get a waterford cheltenham gag too! I was just too scroogy to buy one !
 
Read all the above and they all sound good but just thought I'd throw out there another possibility...Liverpool Driving Bit...yes i said it :o
As with all bits, doesn't work for some- but have known others it has worked wonders on :) Good Luck!
 
I think I own his doppelganger!

French link snaffle in the school and for 'quiet' mooch hacks and an american gag for 'fun' rides, hunting and the like. I also put a strap round the back of the gag whci certaiinly helps. Also, funny though this sounds, wider reins helped, I use Passier rubber covered 'eventa' type ones and with good gloves the difference is noticeable.

Although I am not small I have a shoulder injury which means I have to avoid pulling if at all possible.

Good luck!
 
How about trying a Kineton noseband? It goives nose pressure only when the horse really pulls, so you have almost a combo bit/hackamore. Worth a go and you can use with whichever bit as you do no attach a rein to it :)
 
ChristmasSparkles said:
Hanoverian pelham...if you want brakes that much.

However, I find with a horse that is seriously that ignorant when strong, I prefer going straight back to a normal snaffle. If it's going to run through the bit regardless of what's in his mouth, no damage is being done. I'd rather know if we ended up stagging a jump, that I'm not going to haul its back teeth out in the process of getting caught out over one....
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I've got to agree with this post, and its probably taken about 40 years. My boy is strong, I've had him schooled by professionals (proper ones which compete internationally) and he's strong for them too (even men). He was in a flash before he was cantering when broken and in a cheltenham by 5 years old. He isn't nasty, just got 70% in Novice with affiliated judge last week. It makes no difference what I use, if he's going to tank he's going to tank and I like you have got fed up with him being rewarded by a sock in the teeth. I have given up jumpcross though!
 
My older mare was as safe as houses, but was a b**** on xc and hacking, cheltnham gag was the only thing that worked, could give me the control to keep us both safe and with the 2 reins, only came into play when needed
 
iamSanta said:
Was just looking through the bit thread and thinking 'why do I put up with him tanking off and trying to stop in a Pelham when it's never worked?'

He's built like a tank, runs like a tank and thinks like a tank! It's usually just on cross country or funrides, once he gets it in his head, he's off, sets his neck and goes. I use a Pelham with 2 reins, I'm not the strongest person in the world. There's no chance of turning, he just rears and sets off again.

It might sound really harsh but I need something that he will go 'ooh, that hurts I need to stop' sort of thing because he gets so dangerous. Of course I don't want to hurt him but with summer coming someone is going to het hurt by his actions and I need that bit more control.
Any ideas would be fab :)
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First of all, instead of filling your horse's mouth with a load of ironmongery you need to accept that this is a schooling issue.

I have spent most of my teaching life trying to make people understand that NO human is strong enough to force half a hundredweight of muscle and bone to stop by hauling on its mouth. All horses are strong but what people mostly mean when they say a horse is strong is that it's manners need attending to.

If you put a bit in his mouth that gets the reaction you describe it will NOT solve the issue it will MAKE IT WORSE. If his mouth hurts he will run away faster.

You and the horse need lessons with an instructor who understands that he needs to be taught that you are in charge and that you need to learn how to stop a horse with your whole body and not just your arms. This is not a quick fix. It will take time as he is going to have to unlearn a bad habit. Until he is safe galloping you should not be doing X-country or anything which gives him the opportunity to tank off with you.

If you are still having problems after you have gone down the aforementioned track and before you do anything as silly as using a driving bit I would suggest you learn to ride him side saddle. Because your seat is more secure that astride you have more chance of a) staying on and b)stopping a runaway horse. I can promise you that he will only do it a couple of times and when he finds out that it does him no good he will stop tanking. And before you have hysterics about the common misconceptions about SS ypu need to remember that it was commonplace for the old horsemen (including my grandfather) to school difficult horses in side saddle because they could give their full attention to the horse and not to trying to stay on.

If you do a lot of X-country (after you have attended to the tanking issue) and you have "good" hands (ie you don't hang on his mouth) you may find an American gag helps as a light hand on this type of bit is often kinder than heavy hands on a Pelham.
 
marydoll said:
My older mare was as safe as houses, but was a b**** on xc and hacking, cheltnham gag was the only thing that worked, could give me the control to keep us both safe and with the 2 reins, only came into play when needed
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If using a Cheltenham gag remember that it is designed to be used with two reins - one on the snaffle ring for normal use and one on the gag ring to back up the snaffle if the snaffle rein alone doesn't do the business and you need to follow up with a bit more umph.

Yes, I know, you rarely see it used correctly these days but that shouldn't stop you using it correctly.
 
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