Something that always bugs me

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Skhosu

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ok, so if you have a snaffle right as your basic bit.
A stronger bit has leverage or some other design that means the rider puts less pressure on with the hands, is it not the case that the bit then amplifies this pressure?
In theory the horse will react to x amount of pressure. The ride in the snafflee pulls harder to give x amount of pressure, the rider in the stronger bit pulls lighter to give x amount of pressure.
So those who say they'd rather not haul on a snaffle and cite the horses benefit-are you not with a stronger bit just using less pressure for you but the horse recieves force compelling him to respond that is similar?
Or am I completely off target?
 
Put it this way if I hack my horse out in a snaffle when we have a canter he puts his head up really high and tries to bugger off. I end up pulling and leaning back for ages, eventually stopping but pulling my horse in the mouth the whole time.
I hack him in a pelham and when we canter he doesn't put his head up and stays in a nice controlled canter and when I want to stop I just sit up. I don't have to pull him at all and just the lightest touch on his mouth stops him.

What's better for the horse?

Sorry I would much rather use a different bit than have to pull my horse in the mouth the whole time.
 
Theres putting preassure on the horses mouth in a stronger bit and not having an arguemet about it and theres putting alot of preassure on the horses mouth in a snaffle and really having a fight thus leaving the horses mouth sore and possibly achieving nothing......
 
yes, but that lightest touch for you is surely at least equal to the hauling pressure from the snaffle or why is he responding?
 
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yes, but that lightest touch for you is surely at least equal to the hauling pressure from the snaffle or why is he responding?

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Yes but you have to haul on a snaffle for ages to get the same response as just a light touch from a stronger bit.
 
So a light touch in a pelham (double reins) with the cub rein loose is equal to me hauling and ragging my horse in the mouth in a snaffle when he decides "actually, I'd quite like to go at my speed into this fence/going for a canter through this field".........Don't think so somehow
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As for why he's responding more in the stronger bit, respect maybe?
 
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but is that then because it is putting a greater pressure still on the horses mouth?

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No. And don't forget some bits don't just act on the horses mouth.
 
I'm only thinking out loud, its a question of leverage in a lot of the stronger bits (some work in different areas) therefore it stands to reason that the only reason the rider has to use a lighter touch is because that is magnified more by the bit.
If my logic is flawed I am happy to have it pointed out to me
 
so two different people have two different answers. I'm not forgetting different actions but compare for example snaffle and three ring gag.
 
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I'm only thinking out loud, its a question of leverage in a lot of the stronger bits (some work in different areas) therefore it stands to reason that the only reason the rider has to use a lighter touch is because that is magnified more by the bit.
If my logic is flawed I am happy to have it pointed out to me

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It is flawed because that assumes a) all bits work in the same way as a snaffle, which is patently not true and the huge variation in snaffle types demonstrates that even snaffles can have different action, and that b) the horse is responding to pressure in its mouth to slow rather than, for example, poll pressure or nose pressure or pressure on the roof of the mouth (depending on the bit).

Bits that are not snaffles are not necessarily 'stronger' than snaffles, they simply have a different action. At the end of the day, a bar of metal in the mouth is a bar of metal in the mouth. It's the refinements which make the difference, and you would not for a second dispute someone saying their horse went better in one type of saddle than another, would you? Same principle applies IMO.
 
sometimes putting stronger bits in changes the way a horse thinks (unless the horse is gen a v strong horse)and insted of thinking forward (their way forward is blocked) they then think 'backwards 'and back off the contact!! therefore changing their mental and physical impulsion!!! The old saying is 'you bit the rider' not the horse!!
 
TripleSandH - I understand your logic and presume that your rationale is that the pressure is the same so we only put a stronger bit in to save our arms, when actually it is no better for the horse.

However, I agree with the others here as one small reminder, even if it is a harsh one, is infinitely much better than ragging the horses mouth at every stride.

Put it this way, would you rather have a needle in your arm, once and deep or would you prefer someone to stick pins in your arm repeatedly for two hours? (a cr*p analogy but hope you see what I am getting at?)
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3 ring gags (unless used properly with 2 reins and a curb strap) are the work of the devil.
At the end of the day the stronger bit get's the effect you want with less effort and fighting, it's not softer but horses generally respect it more and all it usually takes is a smaller touch rather than big pulls over and over again which an be damaging and isn't partuclarly pleasant for the horse.

Would you rather see somebody going around in a stronger bit, horse looking happy and going nicely, everybody is safe, no fights or somebody hauling away at their horses mouth in a snaffle, no control, fights, horse ends up with a sore mouth mouth.
 
(I'm not by the way against the use of stronger bits, I am more deliberating with myself and interested to develop my thoughts here)
Some bits have different action, but some have same or similar, it is the leverage here I think that that is what gives the rider a lighter touch.
When you ride in a strong bit do you have a contact? What sort of a contact? strong, light, etc? Is it the same contact as you would ride a responsive horse in a snaffle?
 
I flat in a snaffle, jump/hack in a pelham. I have a far 'stronger' contact in the snaffle than I do in the pelham. TBH the type of contact I have is totally different in each because of what I am trying to achieve and how I know my horse goes best.
 
TripleSandH - I can see where you are coming from and to an extent I agree with you. I think anyone who has an unbalanced seat and is not capable of riding with independant seat and hands should ride in a snaffle, nothing stronger, but sadly you see lots of people with whacking great bits in their horses mouths, bouncing around in the saddle and repeatedly jabbing them with the full force of a curb chain etc, whilst kicking ten bales of sh** out of them and wondering why they won't go forward!

Personally I'd like to ride every horse in a snaffle, and most horses I've ridden are perfectly ok in a snaffle. However, there are horses who require a different sort of aid - they may not respond well to a bit, but pressure over the nose may be very effective on them. I'm certain my horse would respond strongly to a curb chain, but I think too strongly, so I wouldn't use one. Different bits suit different horses and as long as they are used correctly by people with independant seat and hands and they are not seen as a replacment for schooling (which happens a lot I think) I don't think it matters.

(I've had a few glasses of wine tonight, so I apologise if that doesn't make sense
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All I know is that riding out in a snaffle with my coloured would be stressful for both of us, myself because the horse would require a half halt every 1/2 a second and the horse because he likes his mouth left alone.
When he has an english gag and I give him a half halt more pressure is applied with less energy on my part. Horse goes "ugh, not arguing with that" and gets on with job in hand.
A truely strong horse will not be great with anything in, some people out hunting having a bit of a hard time with a strong horse say to me "Oh but its ok for you, you have an english gag in" and if I cared a little less for my horse I would offer them a trial run on my horse, trying to keep him in a position where I can leave his mouth alone as much as possible, with him being as strong and ruthless as he is is a job for the mind, the shoulders and the bottom.
 
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I have a far 'stronger' contact in the snaffle than I do in the pelham. TBH the type of contact I have is totally different in each because of what I am trying to achieve and how I know my horse goes best.

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You took the words right out of my mouth!
 
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I have a far 'stronger' contact in the snaffle than I do in the pelham. TBH the type of contact I have is totally different in each because of what I am trying to achieve and how I know my horse goes best.

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You took the words right out of my mouth!

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LOL I find this whole 'snaffle/non-snaffle' debate almost as bizarre as the 'not in a snaffle but rider with whip and spurs on' one. Neither make any sense to me as they both rely on a quite odd set of assumptions TBH.
 
i agree with spotted cat, i like to feel a good contact in a snaffle and know am working my horse into it, rather than havin an illusion of contact on an overbent horse in a strong bit, i would only consider a stronger bit for mayb jumpin, but would make sure was kno other option.
 
Spotted cat is correct, I think - it's not as simple as amount of pressure. Every bit works differently and horses have differing amounts of respect/comfort for different bits. Also it depends what you are doing with your horse surely? And is your horse trained to respond to seat/leg pressure? I can stop or slow my horse from the seat only. Every horse has different levels of excitability as well, to factor in. Not a simple 2+2=4 I'm beginning to think!
 
CAVELO Thats it!more riders like that, n less scenes of riders flat on their horses backs pulling and ripping at the horses mouth ( even with strong bits in) for all they r worth(we r not gonna win tug o war with horses they r bigger than us), SEAT, LEGS n VOICE r fab aids 'n not just for goin forward!!!!!!!!!!'
 
Surely this is just one of these situations where every horse responds differently? or how we as riders determine stronger bits?. For example Jointed snaffle V straight bar pelham. I would say the straight bar pelham would be kinder in the mouth than a jointed snaffle but the pelham distributes its pressure across three areas, mouth, poll and chin groove. Does that make it a STRONGER bit, it maybe wouldnt cause the horse as much discomfort?
 
QR - understand what OP is trying to say, but to be honest you can only apply it to say, a hanging cheek, and a 3 ring gag, where the action is the same but you can change the attachment of the reins so that you get greater or less leverage. THEN what you have said would apply. Otherwise I dont think so. For instance, a cambridge kimblewick is a different but certainly not harsher bit for my arab, than a french link is. Because he hates jointed bits

xxx
 
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