Something that always bugs me

I can see what the OP is saying but what is safer? You are riding down the road and you need to do an emergency stop. Do you haul on your snaffle and wait for a response time similar to an aged artic lorry, or do you squeeze your reins and stop immediately and don't cause an accident?

The first time that you ride a horse in a new bit it may get the same pressure as hauling away on a snaffle for 30 mins would give it, but it will only do it once. Horses aren't quite as stupid as some people think and can work out which bits deserve a bit of respect.
 
My little Welsh D god rest his sole, used to be fantastic in the school in his snaffle and work a treat, round and soft.

As soon as he went out into the woods, the demon took over and I would end up having a battle, he usually won and I always came home upset, it started once we'd been out hunting. So, I bought a pelham and roundings and harmony for both of us returned. So stronger bits do have their place at the right time and right hands. This was only ever used out hacking/HT and mock hunts and a double for his MM classes. And french link for dressage....hence the jack of all trades and master of none
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Hmm, some defensive replies here.
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First off, I'm not giving an opinion on what bits people should or should not be using but there are some things about bitting that come down to physics, not opinions or theories. Surely if someone is using a bit they've looked into its effects and principles behind it?

So I'm not passing judgement (if you're happy and successful with your choices why defend yourself anyway?). rather trying to answer the OPs question. Math and physics aren't among my core competencies so bear with my simplified explanation.

Bits with a leverage component act on leverage. Yes, they may act on different parts of the horse and produce a different response accordingly but the force on the part that goes in the horse's mouth is acted upon - increased - by leverage. Period, end of sentence. Leverage works by increasing force - anyone who has ever put a board under a rock to lift it understands the concept.

Let's take pelhams because they're easy to understand. The force of the lever is determined by the ratio between the "arm" above the fulcrum (the point of rotation, in this case the bit) and the arm below. So this is the distance from the bit to the cheekpiece attachment to the bit vs the distance from the bit to the rein attachment - for most pelhams this is in the 1:2 - 1:2.5 range. What this means in practical purposes is that for each pound of pressure on the rein between 2 and 2.5 pounds is put on the mouth. Again, not an opinion, a fact. Leverage bits act by requiring less force FROM THE RIDER to produce relatively more force on the horse.

Poll pressure is another area acted upon by leverage. Again, because of the distances involved, it is possible to produce a great deal of pressure with a relatively little amount of force. There have been some interesting recent studies on the long term physical effects of this but honestly, if people aren't interested in looking into it themselves it's a useless discussion.

Area of pressure is another consideration. The larger area over which force is spread, the lower psi there is. So bits with small bearing surfaces - edge bits, waterfords etc. - concentrate the pressure over a smaller area, producing relatively greater force. Imagine someone dropping a book on your stomach vs someone hitting you in the gut with a hammer - which is going to hurt more? Again, opinions aside, this is simply physics. At the end of this spectrum we are talking about pain (get someone to hit you in the stomach with a knife) and, quite frankly, now we are getting into the area of ethics and opinion. No rider WANTS to think they are causing their mount pain but like it or not, it's an effective SHORT TERM control measure. (It has MAJOR long term drawbacks but people in general are better at "now" than "later".)

"True" gags and some other bits with movable/sliding/running parts also add a "pulley" effect. Depending on how the pulley is set up it can simply redirect force (pressing down on the poll for instance) or increase the mechanical advantage by magnifying the force as a lever does. Some bits use a combination of factors so in order to figure out the applied force one would have to "add" all the effects. I'll spare the detailed explanation . . .

Of course conformation, history and other personal issues do come in to play. If the horse is generally more comfortable it will take less pressure to produce a result. If pressure is applied to a "new" point it may be more effective. And for riders there is a mental component - if the rider FEELS more in control he/she may be less likely to exercise it unreasonably and save the requests for when they count, resulting in less pressure/discomfort/confusion for the horse. It's all very well to say we should be "better" than that but horses and riders are linked systems so what affects one affects the other.

Now, to the value judgement. . . its is not simply force = bad. Whether we all want to admit it or not riding is often about force, especially where bits are concerned. We put bits on horses because the mouth is a sensitive area and pressure put on it is likely to yield results. We are small, they are big and our safety depends on being able to control them. It's all very well to say horses should *want* to do what we say but I have yet to see horses loose in fields practising their dressage tests or schooling through endless grids.
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It is OUR choice to do what we do with them and we have to at least recognise it is their JOB not their hobby. Anyone uncomfortable with the base concept probably needs to have a think about it. Not that horses can't enjoy ridden work or be enthusiastic about performance, just that we effectively "force" them to do it in the first place, if only by not offering them options. Fair enough - most of us go to work because we have to, no matter how much we might enjoy it while we're there.

What does this have to do with bitting? Quite a bit.
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In situations where horses are likely to be less compliant - when adrenaline kicks in, when the horse doesn't understand the necessity for accuracy - then more force might be required to produce the same effect that can be achieved with less force under less pressured circumstances. Hence, "bigger" bits for fit, enthusiastic Advanced horses etc. We are small, they are big, we want them to do our bidding.

That said, the problem with force is it's self perpetuating. Because horses are organic systems they constantly change/grow/degrade/ - in other words, adapt. Simplified, if the rider produces consistently more pressure the horse adapts and gets stronger/learns to ignore/grows calluses etc. and the pressure becomes a less effective control. Or the horse reaches a breaking point - physically or mentally - and cracks. Of course judicious, educated USE of pressure can avoid some of these complications but this has to come from understanding and awareness.

Phew.:) I really have to get on with writing a book and sparing random people on the internet . . .
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Oh, and bauchers/hanging snaffles are not leverage bits. The rein does not attach below the level of the fulcrum so no leverage comes into play - if you actually envision how the bit works this makes sense. Their purpose - French light creation that they are - is to remove "neutral" pressure and allow the bit to "hang" when there is no rein pressure. Some horses prefer this but it always makes me laugh when I consider why - and by whom - they were developed vs the "modern" take on them. But the Baucher was hardly against the use of force and leverage!

Okay, going away now. Think I'll go ride a horse.
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ok, so if you have a snaffle right as your basic bit.
A stronger bit has leverage or some other design that means the rider puts less pressure on with the hands, is it not the case that the bit then amplifies this pressure?
In theory the horse will react to x amount of pressure. The ride in the snafflee pulls harder to give x amount of pressure, the rider in the stronger bit pulls lighter to give x amount of pressure.
So those who say they'd rather not haul on a snaffle and cite the horses benefit-are you not with a stronger bit just using less pressure for you but the horse recieves force compelling him to respond that is similar?
Or am I completely off target?

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Am I right in my understanding that you're saying that basically you have to put more physical effort into using a snaffle (therefore emitting x amount of pressure on the horse) yet the same amount of force is achieved with a stronger bit by the rider using significantly less effort...? Did that even make sense? So a pull on a snaffle could be equal pressure to, say, blocking the movement of your hands whilst using a strong bit?
 
Yes, that's how leverage works. It's the difference between trying to push the metaphorical rock over and inserting a board under it with a fulcrum (another rock) underneath it and pushing down on the high end of the board. Same pressure = more force.
 
Interesting debate.
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people tend to assume a bit is stronger becaus ethay have to apply less force than they do in another bit. This is not strictly true.
Looking at the sanffle issue, if the rider has to haul then the horse is evading the bit. This may be trough a number of methods. Each horse has its own way of evading. So this is a training issue. Steady now, i dont mean you need to do more schooling
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What I'm getting at is that all horses are trained with force or if you prefer action and reaction. Horse does A which rider wanted then no discomfort for horse. Rider askes for A and horse does B then a corrective aid will be applied which will involve force. If it didn't then why would softening work as a reward for correct response?
So if you find a bit that has a different action that foils the horses evasion method then it wont evade the bit. What you've just done is train the horse that his action is the snaffle wont be effective in the new bit therefore it isn't wortth him doing it.
Its all about stopping the evasion rather than the percieved strength of bit. Unfortuneately the horse responding in the new bit is often mistaken for the fact that it must therefore be harsher.

JMHO
 
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Yes, that's how leverage works. It's the difference between trying to push the metaphorical rock over and inserting a board under it with a fulcrum (another rock) underneath it and pushing down on the high end of the board. Same pressure = more force.

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I know, I was just asking to see if I'd understood the original statement being made! By the time I'd read through everyone else posts I'd completely confused myself!!
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Sorry, didn't mean to offend! Should have said you'd managed to simply and condense the point perfectly, rather than rambling endlessly like some people.
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I still can't quite understand why someone would rather haul on their horses mouth for ages in a snaffle than put a stronger bit in and not have to pull them in the mouth at all?

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Totally agree....if anyone would like to hack or jump Lance in a snaffle then feel free!
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He is in a Cheltenham Gag for a very good reason, because it is the only bit I have breaks in when I need them.


Why should I have to fight and tug and pull in a snaffle, when I can ask quietly with his Gag?

Also as someone said all bits dont just act on the mouth, some help with leaning etc.
 
Ultimately, IMO, it has less to do with pressure levels on the horse and more to do with ease for the rider.

If both the snaffle and the gag exert the same pressure, albeit in different ways, on the horse, but the latter if less work for the rider, then the gag will be the bit of choice. After all, horse riding (whilst the welfare of the horse must be foremost) is very much about style and presentation.

The same point can be made about spurs, you shouldn't kick with spurs but the force is concentrated. Push a friend in the side of their stomach, below the ribcage, firmly, with the flat of your hand and then poke with one finger...see what happens! But again, it looks nicer to gently apply the leg with spurs than to have a rider giving the ol' 'Pony Club kick'!
 
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Sorry, didn't mean to offend! Should have said you'd managed to simply and condense the point perfectly, rather than rambling endlessly like some people.
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Oh I dunno, that's a very impressive post you made!! Certainly the longest I've seen on here!!
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Oh I dunno, that's a very impressive post you made!! Certainly the longest I've seen on here!!
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I will choose to take that as a compliment.
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On another board I go to there was a "contest" to figure out what my screen name was. (My, THAT sounds conceited!) Someone who knows me well in "real life" got it right off the bat and said, "Oh, I just looked for the longest posts."
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Bits are just tools, like hammers or ipods, for conveying action and information. (You can use a hammer to build a wall, use it to kill someone, or wave it around randomly for who knows what purpose.) They aren't inherently "good" or "bad" but they have all been developed because somebody, somewhere, at some time, had use for them. The trick is in the understanding and the application, both for the short term and the long term.

Personally, I think people should use what works. That said, I am amazed how many people use equipment and practices without looking into not only the possible "pros" but the "cons" as well. (EVERYTHING in life has pros and cons.) Knowing why and how to use something goes along way to using it successfully.
 
I understand your point and nothing with horses is black and white, we are always learning and while we think we are training our horses, r they not training us!!
 
Cruiser put it much more eloquently than I did! A lot of people have come and said , for example, St bernard if you want to come ride my horse in a snaffle etc. This is not the point I am making/contemplating. It is not a snaffles are great everything else is bad post, its thinking about why we consider different bits to be stronger/more useful. Cruiser puts it very nicely!
How many of us know why our bit is stronger?
 
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Oh I dunno, that's a very impressive post you made!! Certainly the longest I've seen on here!!
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I will choose to take that as a compliment.
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On another board I go to there was a "contest" to figure out what my screen name was. (My, THAT sounds conceited!) Someone who knows me well in "real life" got it right off the bat and said, "Oh, I just looked for the longest posts."
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So it's a habit of yours then?
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Bits are just tools, like hammers or ipods, for conveying action and information. (You can use a hammer to build a wall, use it to kill someone, or wave it around randomly for who knows what purpose.) They aren't inherently "good" or "bad" but they have all been developed because somebody, somewhere, at some time, had use for them. The trick is in the understanding and the application, both for the short term and the long term.

Personally, I think people should use what works. That said, I am amazed how many people use equipment and practices without looking into not only the possible "pros" but the "cons" as well. (EVERYTHING in life has pros and cons.) Knowing why and how to use something goes along way to using it successfully.

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I think this is my favourite comment posted so far! Well said!
 
As said before is more about how the bit works that is important, my boy is less comfortable and fights against the nutcracker action of the snaffle, i ride in a hanging cheek french link no stronger as such than a snaffle but as he is more comfortable he will work on the bit and stops nicely as he is not fighting against the discomfort of the snaffle - - p.s not saying snaffles are bad - just my boy does not get on with them,,
 
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