Sore feet after farrier?

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LouiseG

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I just wondered if anyone had any thoughts on what could be wrong with my horse. He was completely sound on Monday morning, went out into a new field (his winter grazing with more grass, and we've had very hot weather the past week), he was out for 4 hours, walked in fine, then he had the farrier. 2 hours later he was lame on what looked like predominantly the front, but later looked to be all 4 feet. I was initially convinced it was laminitis although he has never had it before or given me cause for concern (he's a very good doer but isn't overweight and I monitor everything that goes into his mouth, he was previously in a field with hardly any grass!).

Got the vet back out in the morning and there was a huge improvement in him without any painkillers or meds over night, he was walking much better and only looked sore in one of his front hooves.

Vet did hoof tests, pulses were all completely normal, no signs of anything abnormal, no heat or swelling. Definitely no sign of laminitis. Again last night, even better, walked him out and he actually looked pretty sound. He's on box rest until the weekend, on Danilon until tomorrow. All being well I will trot him up on Friday/Saturday and if he's sound he will get back out into the field (same field with more grass). If he's not sound the shoes will need to come off.

The vet is confident that it's a shoeing issue as he has quite flat feet and thinks we may need x-rays and possibly some corrective shoeing. He is never normally footy after the farrier though which is why I'm so concerned. And the farrier didn't do anything different other than put on larger front shoes.

Can anyone tell me their thoughts?! It's still on my mind that his feet are actually sensitive to the extra grass that he ate in the 4 hours he was in his new field (he is a greedy horse!) and then the farrier just tipped him over the edge. Although the vet said it's not laminitis there could be some degree of inflammation in his hooves from the new shoes. He's very bright and happy in himself, eating normally (although on soaked hay instead of haylage just in case!!).

If anyone has any suggestions I'd really appreciate it. He is never sick or sorry so it's a real worry to me! :( Thank you!!
 
I would Allways ask the farrier first. One of mine has flat front feet, that are absolutely crap, and break up very easily.farrier has told me that on flat feet some farriers nail quite close or past the white line. It could be sensitivity due to nails.. phone your farrier and ask his advice/ opinion
 
Thanks for your reply! The vet spoke to my farrier and I'm taking him in for X-rays and to be shod on the same day at the vets in 6 weeks (my farrier is the vet's remedial farrier also which is good!). He thought leave him overnight to see how he was in the morning, and he was a lot better, so I dont think he's overly concerned at the moment, would be good to know why he has been so footy this time though unless isn't just an unfortunate set of circumstances!
 
Chances are farrier has done it. Id be calling him and telling him and asking him out to check the feet and i wouldnt be paying for it either considering youve had to pay a vet. My farrier makes me trot ours up after shoeing to make sure they are sound. Love this about him as Ive yet to have a horse unlevel from him :)
 
Why does he have such flat feet? What's his diet like? And how much exercise does he get? Why did your farrier put on larger shoes this time?

I'd strongly recommend you get a second opinion from a very experienced farrier or trimmer before you go down the corrective shoeing route. If your vet is correct and this lameness has been caused by improper shoeing then why does he think the best way forward is corrective shoeing from the same farrier??

Any chance you could post some pics?
 
The vet didn't think it was improper shoeing, just that possibly due to slightly larger shoes being put on he was finding it a bit uncomfortable and sensitive this time for some unknown reason.

His diet consists of Topspec lite balancer, happy hoof and Topspec performance cubes, he is schooled 3 times a week, jumped once and hacked once or twice so he's in moderate work.

I'm unsure how to post pictures on here? How do I post them? I do have pictures of his feet from Monday but from the side - HPA looks good, from the back his heels are slightly contracted but the farrier has put on a little bit of lateral extension to give balance and support to encourage the foot to grow out at the edge of the heel. Only from the front do they look flat as the feet are flaring slightly.
 
You can make an album in your forum profile and upload photos from your computer into it, or upload them to photobucket (or similar) and then post the photobucket IMG code in the forum reply box.
 
Ok, sorry, misunderstood what you meant by vet thinking it was a shoeing issue ;-)

So your horse has contracted heels, flat soles and flare. And now he's lame after being shod. Time for a new farrier?
 
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Thanks for the replies! It's such a worry. My farrier does all the remedial/corrective shoeing for my vet practice too, I'm just really concerned about what has happened here. The vet has advised box rest as he will more than likely come sound once he "settles into his shoes", but I dont think that's really a good solution, and my farrier is not coming out to see what's going on which is really concerning me because he may yet need the shoes off and then we're back at square one with a massive vet bill when I feel that it's my farrier's responsiblity to at least have a look at what is going on.
 
I was in a similar situation a couple of years ago - your farrier's apparent lack of interest/concern is totally unacceptable. Really think you need to have another farrier or trimmer take a look asap. Maybe also another vet.
 
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Buddy'sMum said:
I was in a similar situation a couple of years ago - your farrier's apparent lack of interest/concern is totally unacceptable. Really think you need to have another farrier or trimmer take a look asap. Maybe also another vet.
Click to expand...

I have agree with this.
I would have rung the farrier first, then if necessary booked a vet visit. If I have ever had a problem (very rare) with a horse shortly after a farrier visit, the farrier has come back the next day to investigate. I wouldn't be happy with a vet who was so obviously didn't understand horses feet - but then I've changed practices because of dissatisfaction with the service and even now won't have a particular vet from the practice that I do use, on the yard.
 
Buddy'sMum said:
So your horse has contracted heels, flat soles and flare. And now he's lame after being shod. Time for a new farrier?
Click to expand...

Buddy'sMum said:
I was in a similar situation a couple of years ago - your farrier's apparent lack of interest/concern is totally unacceptable. Really think you need to have another farrier or trimmer take a look asap. Maybe also another vet.
Click to expand...

All of above.
 
For those who may be interested:
There is no minimum standard in farriery, all farriers qualify, register, preferably both and then set out to make a living.
CPD courses are attended with points given for attendance.
But when it comes to having a minimum standard within the profession there is non.
The disciplinary committee of the FRC will sit to discuss a case that is brought before them but that will be due to a law possibly having been broken or damage has been inflicted to an animal.
As to how a farrier shoes a horse it is up to the farrier’s training and ability.
FACT: the main thing that has improved the standard of farrier in the last 30 years is the quality of the readymade shoe:
My problem always was and is: if shoeing has such a wide scope of tolerance due to difference of opinion amongst professionals, how can the veterinary profession sit by and condone what they should know to be bad shoeing knowing it to be harmful to the horse.( H. oath ‘the wellbeing of the animal is paramount‘)
The answer is that you will very rarely find a vet. Who is willing to speak-out against a farrier, due to them needing to work with them on a regular basis.
In 38 years of shoeing I have been asked only 3 Times in my career to give my judgement on a fellow farrier, and each time I recommended that the farrier concerned should be held responsible for their actions due to their incompetence.
If any owner has a horse with foot problems, then it is no different than having a horse with a laceration of the skin: it is a problem that professionals should be able and qualified to solve or refer to someone who can.
We must stop thinking that the feet are in a different category than the rest of the horse
We must start to expect MORE from the professionals who are charging to maintain them.
 
Heelfirst said:
For those who may be interested:
There is no minimum standard in farriery, all farriers qualify, register, preferably both and then set out to make a living.
CPD courses are attended with points given for attendance.
But when it comes to having a minimum standard within the profession there is non.
The disciplinary committee of the FRC will sit to discuss a case that is brought before them but that will be due to a law possibly having been broken or damage has been inflicted to an animal.
As to how a farrier shoes a horse it is up to the farrier’s training and ability.
FACT: the main thing that has improved the standard of farrier in the last 30 years is the quality of the readymade shoe:
My problem always was and is: if shoeing has such a wide scope of tolerance due to difference of opinion amongst professionals, how can the veterinary profession sit by and condone what they should know to be bad shoeing knowing it to be harmful to the horse.( H. oath ‘the wellbeing of the animal is paramount‘)
The answer is that you will very rarely find a vet. Who is willing to speak-out against a farrier, due to them needing to work with them on a regular basis.
In 38 years of shoeing I have been asked only 3 Times in my career to give my judgement on a fellow farrier, and each time I recommended that the farrier concerned should be held responsible for their actions due to their incompetence.
If any owner has a horse with foot problems, then it is no different than having a horse with a laceration of the skin: it is a problem that professionals should be able and qualified to solve or refer to someone who can.
We must stop thinking that the feet are in a different category than the rest of the horse
We must start to expect MORE from the professionals who are charging to maintain them.
Click to expand...


Isnt there a minimum of 10 CPD points per year now?
 
Heelfirst said:
The answer is that you will very rarely find a vet. Who is willing to speak-out against a farrier, due to them needing to work with them on a regular basis.

We must start to expect MORE from the professionals who are charging to maintain them.
Click to expand...

A friend had just been told by her vet to change her farrier - mind you we've been telling her for ages that the feet are the cause of his lameness.

I wholeheartedly agree with your last sentence - and believe that it is the responsibility of the owner to learn enough about the horse's foot to be able to recognise good farriery work and to only employ good farriers, rather than those who are cheap or punctual or are prepared to deal with the horse in the owner's absence.
 
The problem is that I HAD to call the vet because I couldn't get in touch with my farrier, he was my first port of call, it just so happened that my horse had his vaccinations that day so the vet was coming up anyway, and I was terrified it was laminitis so I couldn't wait until my farrier bothered to get back to me, which since Monday has only consisted of 2 text messages!! (He's left me 9 days without a front shoe on my horse before and didn't bother to return my messages). He has had a discussion with my vet though so that's something, but still, he has a duty of care to my horse, and to me, and although he IS an excellent farrier, something has gone wrong here and he has failed in his duty of care to my horse and his wellbeing and that's also an issue, as well as the fact that my horse went hopping lame a couple of hours after shoeing, he should be willing to take responsibility for this and not pass it to the vet.

I have since been in contact with a really highly regarded farrier who spent a long time on the phone to me today discussing what has happened and is coming out tomorrow (with my vet) to look at what's potentially happened and where to go from here, which is the exact response I should have got from my existing farrier on Monday when this happened. It's really unfortunate what has happened and it's caused me a lot of upset and frustration which could have been avoided!
 
Quote: "I wholeheartedly agree with your last sentence - and believe that it is the responsibility of the owner to learn enough about the horse's foot to be able to recognise good farriery work and to only employ good farriers, rather than those who are cheap or punctual or are prepared to deal with the horse in the owner's absence. "
No, No, No. I could not disagree more, we must not expect the owner to have the knowledge, we must as a profession be competent, that is my point.
If we are to rely on owners to assess our work, why not let them shoe/trim their own horses and take the whole responsibility.
If farriers are to be held to account then let them have a minimum standard to which they MUST keep, as in every other professional body from vets to plumbers.
At present the ‘U bend’ in your loo is more protected than your horses feet, as only the fitting of one
( the loo) is protected, in other words if it was found that the plumber fitted it wrong you would have a case.
Farriers are only protected by law in the fact that no one else can do their job, and it is this that makes them (us ) arrogant and unaware of our consequences
 
Heelfirst said:
Quote: "I wholeheartedly agree with your last sentence - and believe that it is the responsibility of the owner to learn enough about the horse's foot to be able to recognise good farriery work and to only employ good farriers, rather than those who are cheap or punctual or are prepared to deal with the horse in the owner's absence. "
No, No, No. I could not disagree more, we must not expect the owner to have the knowledge, we must as a profession be competent, that is my point.
If we are to rely on owners to assess our work, why not let them shoe/trim their own horses and take the whole responsibility.
If farriers are to be held to account then let them have a minimum standard to which they MUST keep, as in every other professional body from vets to plumbers.
At present the ‘U bend’ in your loo is more protected than your horses feet, as only the fitting of one
( the loo) is protected, in other words if it was found that the plumber fitted it wrong you would have a case.
Farriers are only protected by law in the fact that no one else can do their job, and it is this that makes them (us ) arrogant and unaware of our consequences
Click to expand...

Heelfirst I completely agree with you here. I try everything in my power to do the best by my horse, which includes paying professionals (farriers, vets, dentists, physios) to know their job and to carry out said job to the best of their ability keeping my horse healthy and sound! It doesn't mean I dont know about my horse's feet, because I do, but unless I am a qualified farrier, I will never know enough! And if I was a qualified farrier I would know what was wrong with my horse and I wouldn't have made this post, I would have had the knowledge to be able to fix it myself. We have to put our trust in the professionals!
 
LouiseG said:
although he IS an excellent farrier, something has gone wrong here
Click to expand...

Let me get this straight - your horse has contracted heels, flat soles, flare and went hopping lame immediately after he was last shod. Your farrier, despite knowing that your horse is so lame he's needed treatment by a vet, has made no effort to come out to see the horse for himself and has failed to return any of your calls (although his mate your vet says he has been speaking to him directly). The same farrier has previously taken 9 days to replace a lost shoe and didn't bother to return any of your messages then either.

What exactly is it that makes you think this man is an excellent farrier?
 
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Heelfirst said:
Quote: "I wholeheartedly agree with your last sentence - and believe that it is the responsibility of the owner to learn enough about the horse's foot to be able to recognise good farriery work and to only employ good farriers, rather than those who are cheap or punctual or are prepared to deal with the horse in the owner's absence. "
No, No, No. I could not disagree more, we must not expect the owner to have the knowledge, we must as a profession be competent, that is my point.
If we are to rely on owners to assess our work, why not let them shoe/trim their own horses and take the whole responsibility.
If farriers are to be held to account then let them have a minimum standard to which they MUST keep, as in every other professional body from vets to plumbers.
At present the ‘U bend’ in your loo is more protected than your horses feet, as only the fitting of one
( the loo) is protected, in other words if it was found that the plumber fitted it wrong you would have a case.
Farriers are only protected by law in the fact that no one else can do their job, and it is this that makes them (us ) arrogant and unaware of our consequences
Click to expand...

I don't understand why you object to the idea of owners educating themselves enough to be able to distinguish good farriery from bad. Who else is going to do that? As you've pointed out, most vets are extremely reluctant to criticise farriers.

It's us owners who are ultimately responsible for the wellbeing of our horses and we absolutely should educate ourselves enough to be able to question the professionals (I speak as an owner who for far too long trusted her farrier to do his best by her horse, and ignored the alarm bells which were ringing in my head for quite some time, only to end up with a chronically lame horse).

Interested in hearing your thoughts on how the minimium standard should be assessed...
 
Heelfirst said:
For those who may be interested:
There is no minimum standard in farriery, all farriers qualify, register, preferably both and then set out to make a living.
IT IS A LEGAL REQUIREMENT TO BE REGISTERED TO SHOE A HORSE IN THE UK. THIS REGISTRATION MUST BE MANTAINED ANNUALLY.
CPD courses are attended with points given for attendance.
But when it comes to having a minimum standard within the profession there is non.
The disciplinary committee of the FRC will sit to discuss a case that is brought before them but that will be due to a law possibly having been broken or damage has been inflicted to an animal.
As to how a farrier shoes a horse it is up to the farrier’s training and ability.
FACT: the main thing that has improved the standard of farrier in the last 30 years is the quality of the readymade shoe:
My problem always was and is: if shoeing has such a wide scope of tolerance due to difference of opinion amongst professionals, how can the veterinary profession sit by and condone what they should know to be bad shoeing knowing it to be harmful to the horse.( H. oath ‘the wellbeing of the animal is paramount‘)
The answer is that you will very rarely find a vet. Who is willing to speak-out against a farrier, due to them needing to work with them on a regular basis.
In 38 years of shoeing I have been asked only 3 Times in my career to give my judgement on a fellow farrier, and each time I recommended that the farrier concerned should be held responsible for their actions due to their incompetence.
WHY IS THIS?
A: STANDARDS AS A WHOLE ARE GOOD ENOUGH THAT YOU ARE NOT NEEDED TO BE ASKED FOR A PROFESSIONAL JUDGMENT VERY OFTEN?
B: PEOPLE DO NOT KNOW ENOUGH/CARE ENOUGH TO ASK FOR YOUR JUDGMENT OR ARE SCARED OF UPSETTING THE EXISTING FARRIER?
C: OTHER?
If any owner has a horse with foot problems, then it is no different than having a horse with a laceration of the skin: it is a problem that professionals should be able and qualified to solve or refer to someone who can.
We must stop thinking that the feet are in a different category than the rest of the horse
We must start to expect MORE from the professionals who are charging to maintain them.
Click to expand...


It is also worth pointing out that a farrier is not actually ALLOWED TO DIAGNOSE LAMENESS.
Therefore, they may well be unable to do much unless you know why the horse is lame and a vet has instructed them on how to treat it.
Just coming back out 'to have a look' would be pointless and, especially if you though it might have laminitis, taking the shoes back off again could actually make things worse.

It's more than possible the horse could have had laminitis and the change in shoeing has shown this up. It could actually be one of a massive number of things that a 'simple re-shoeing' could bring to light.

As you have called the vet (which is who you should be calling first in the event of lameness), once the vet is treating the horse the vet will contact the farrier to discuss any work needed. As this sounds like it has been done (ie your vet has spoken to the farrier) the farrier really has no need to speak to you about it.

Who reccomended you speak to the new farrier on the phone today? Your existing faiirer? The Vet? Yourself?
 
An owners part in the wellbeing of any animal is to delegate to their team, the ultimate wellbeing of the animal I hope you would agree must be with the person who is qualified to asses it, that is the vet.
Don’t get me wrong, it is wonderful that some owners wish to know the finer points of farriery or the veterinary profession, but…. I do not wish to learn about wiring, plumbing, bricklaying, dentistry, the law, being a pilot, the list is endless as to what I don’t want to know but am still willing to trust as I assume they have a minimum standard, and that assumption makes it possible for me to delegate.
When choosing a farrier a lot of owners seem to go on word of mouth, and attitude of the farrier, and I have to say at present this is probably the best way of going about the task.
I am just trying to take the gamble out of the job by insisting that farriers are made aware of their responsibilities, this approach also make the horse belonging to someone who only wants to ride have the same protection.
I believe the only way this will ever happen is to introduce a completely new training system based on the vets. That is a student would not go with a ATF until they have had a minimum of 2 years at collage, and within that time the student would be made aware of the standards that are required to be a true professional farrier.
I have gone on enough about the training system within my profession on other threads so I will now stop boring you .
 
By the way I would love to know who added this into my quote?
WHY IS THIS?
A: STANDARDS AS A WHOLE ARE GOOD ENOUGH THAT YOU ARE NOT NEEDED TO BE ASKED FOR A PROFESSIONAL JUDGMENT VERY OFTEN?
B: PEOPLE DO NOT KNOW ENOUGH/CARE ENOUGH TO ASK FOR YOUR JUDGMENT OR ARE SCARED OF UPSETTING THE EXISTING FARRIER?
C: OTHER?
 
rse:
Ok, get it now.
99% of my work is through referrals so when I am asked to make any judgement it is because I have been called in as a second opinion.
Every farrier has the ability to make a horse compromise due to the way it is shod.
Understanding that is the only thing between me being needed or not!
 
Heelfirst said:
An owners part in the wellbeing of any animal is to delegate to their team, the ultimate wellbeing of the animal I hope you would agree must be with the person who is qualified to asses it, that is the vet.
Click to expand...

While I don't hesitate to call upon the expertise of my vet when needed, how is a vet who sees my horse maybe a couple of times a year better qualified to assess my horse's wellbeing than I am? Afraid I have absolutely no desire to delegate responsibility for my horse's wellbeing to my 'team' - my horse, my responsibility!

Heelfirst said:
Don’t get me wrong, it is wonderful that some owners wish to know the finer points of farriery or the veterinary profession, but…. I do not wish to learn about wiring, plumbing, bricklaying, dentistry, the law, being a pilot, the list is endless as to what I don’t want to know but am still willing to trust as I assume they have a minimum standard, and that assumption makes it possible for me to delegate.
Click to expand...

IMO every owner - even if they are the type of owner who just wants to ride - should be able to assess whether a hoof has been trimmed/shod appropriately. Because it's quite clear that there are a shocking number of farriers out there who are merrily going about their business, leaving a trail of lame horses behind them and taking no responsibility for their actions.
 
Then you are obviously not the sort of owner I have in mind when it comes to protecting the horse.
I repeat it is wonderful that some owners decide to get as knowledgeable as a farrier/vet and are able to judge for themselves the inner most details of a profession.
I am only concerned that there should be a minimum standard to protect the horses belonging to owners who do not want to acquire such knowledge.
I think if you asked most owners if they would rather rely on a minimum standard or have to acquire the knowledge themselves, they would choose the former.
I full understand that you do not fall into this category.
 
Buddy'sMum said:
While I don't hesitate to call upon the expertise of my vet when needed, how is a vet who sees my horse maybe a couple of times a year better qualified to assess my horse's wellbeing than I am? Afraid I have absolutely no desire to delegate responsibility for my horse's wellbeing to my 'team' - my horse, my responsibility!



IMO every owner - even if they are the type of owner who just wants to ride - should be able to assess whether a hoof has been trimmed/shod appropriately. Because it's quite clear that there are a shocking number of farriers out there who are merrily going about their business, leaving a trail of lame horses behind them and taking no responsibility for their actions.
Click to expand...

so agree with you BM. My horse and my responsibility and duty to check out everyone I allow near him.
Not something I necessarily want to do but something I find that I have been forced to do over the years to keep my animals safe from poor advice from vets, farriers, physio's, dentists and every other horse professional under the sun.
My vet diagnosed my horse with botulism, basically a death sentence. Thank heavens I didn't listen to that or I wouldn't be riding him this morning.
My checking also extends to everything else whereever possible. Lawyers most definitely due to being taken for a mug by one solicitor, and don't even get me started on the accountancy profession. Sorry but being a "professional" or having undergone a period of training doesn't make someone totally trustable and able to have all responsibility delegated to them. They have to earn that. Farriers are no better or worse than any others. I think it may simply be that quite a few people now have taken their horses barefoot to overcome problems and have found a lot of knowledge along the way. Some hasn't reflected too well on some farriers.
 
Definitely definitely query the actions of the farrier in this case....had a similar issue with my tb mare last year, v flat front feet not much heel. 2 occasions of lameness after new shoes despite being with farrier who vet thought highly of (as did many other people in area). Different farrier v experienced with tb feet took a whole new approach to her feet and wasn't very forthcoming on his opinion of the previous farriery work except to say 'we can improve her feet quite easily'. Her feet actually look the best they ever have and she has never been lame since. Sometimes a farrier is better with a certain type of feet than others, hard for them to be an expert in all cases. Do whats best for your horse and trust your gut feeling.
 
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