Sorry - another barefoot thread! (Footiness)

SaffronWelshDragon

SaffronWelshDragon

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Hi all,

I've done a bit of a search on here, but I know you barefooters lurve giving out advice :)

Quick summary - Welsh Cob (Saffron) and New Forest pony (Mist) (age 18 and 23 respectively), both in light regular work, my Welsh doing more than NF. Saffron shod in front and unshod behind and Misty unshod all round, been like this 10 years +. This year both of them have had some problems with footiness on tarmac with gravel on top, not lame, once they get off the gravelly bits they're fine. Totally sounds on grass, smooth tarmac etc. They also both had trouble with small stones getting lodged in the white line (since feeding Equimins Advance Complete the white line looks tighter).

I'm planning to take Saf's front shoes off at the end of this month, after our last event, and would like to get this footiness problem sorted once and for all.

I've been reading about Pro Hoof, and it does sounds amazing, but I'm slightly put off by the price, so was them looking at Pro Balance - not sure whether it would be worth trying this instead? The Equimins didn't help with the footiness, but did look like it helped with the white line.

They are both currently eating Speedibeet, A&P Veteran Vitality, and Saf has Flexijoint as well. They're also munching a kilo or so of haylage. They both live out 24/7. I was wondering whether the Veteran Vitality would have any negative effect on their feet, as it's over the 10% starch / sugars rule (only on my first bag of this, so footiness started months and months before feeding this). I was wondering whether to move them onto Cool & Collected as that is quite a bit lower in starch / sugars.

Sorry for the mega post!
 
I believe Veteran Vitality is 15% starch and sugar, from old threads, so yes rather higher than we tend to like for feet.

Remember that forage should be their staple diet, anything else is just trimming, or a carrier for minerals. The only mix Id recommend is Fast Fibre or Spillers High Fibre Nuts - FF seems to hide minerals better has been the general conclusion!

Pro Hoof is more expensive as it has the gut balancer in it so if you dont have tummy troubles pro balance would be fine.

Also the grass is crazy atm, so the less of that theyre getting the better!
 
I feed pro balance no problems at all. If you don't already supplement magnesium this may help too. I know there's some in the pro balance but it isn't enough. My lad has 50mg of calmag every day and is noticeably different without it, quite footy so it obviously helps him. I'd agree about the Veteran Vitality, have something with less sugar. I use copra meal, that and the micronised linseed are great for condition.

Hope that helps, it certainly works for me. :)
 
Oh, and other thing to think about is what grasses your haylage is made from as ryegrass can be lethal, as I found out to my cost when I realised the expensive Timothy haylage I'd been buying was mixed with ryegrass too :( set us back a few weeks sorting that out.
 
Can't help you on the technical side as am not a barefooter, but just to say please be very careful over the issue of stones etc. lodging in the white line. It cost the life of a beautiful (barefoot) livery pony I had nere (continual abscesses).
 
You could try pure magnesium. Naturalhorsesupplies do a pure one which is really good. I would also, as someone else suggested move onto the fast fibre and add linseed.
 
I would definately take them off the VV and add micronised linseed - it will help joints and coat as well as feet so may be no need to feed flexijoint too.

Also consider the grass as being a problem. My boy has just become more sensitive over stony ground which coincides with the rain we have recently had and thus the grass shooting through again.... it is worth restricting their grass in spring and autumn, even if that means supplementing them with a little more hay...
 
Rose Folly said:
Can't help you on the technical side as am not a barefooter, but just to say please be very careful over the issue of stones etc. lodging in the white line. It cost the life of a beautiful (barefoot) livery pony I had nere (continual abscesses).
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Sorry for your loss. This sounds quite typical of a pony with metabolic issues which could easily be adressed with the right diet and in particular, mineral balancing.
 
bikerchickone said:
I feed pro balance no problems at all. If you don't already supplement magnesium this may help too. I know there's some in the pro balance but it isn't enough. My lad has 50mg of calmag every day and is noticeably different without it, quite footy so it obviously helps him. I'd agree about the Veteran Vitality, have something with less sugar. I use copra meal, that and the micronised linseed are great for condition.

Hope that helps, it certainly works for me. :)
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That seems a lot of Calmag bikechick,
from the Natural Horse Supplies site, I quote
Recommendation for 500kg horse would be 15 grams of 85% Magnesium Oxide per day.

I have decided to start with half of the recommended PRO balance that would give him 3gms of magnesium oxide [he also gets 10gms of Feedmark Steady Up per day, this does have magnesium in it, plus the minerals in his FF.
The cost of these minerals can be really prohibitive, I buy when things are on offer, so tend to have a mix of things available when I come to make up his 100 day winter mix [minerals plus 10kg micronised linseed meal]
I am a bit concerned that I would give him too much pure magnesium and he would stop eating his grub.
 
My slightly under 500kg fussy mare eats 40g calmag per day - that supplies a little more than 20g magox. Any less and she goes down hill. Kellon recommends balancing calcium to magnesium 2:1 - obv knowing the calcium in the ration helps. Most if not all uk forage is short of mag - and I understand excess is easily excreted. Calmag can be gritty, but with a decent stir I've never had a problem.
 
Where are you getting your calmag fom? I'm near Manchester and none of the feed suppliers have heard of it. I'm using Mag-ox heavy as it's all I can get
 
Sorry Saffron only just seen your reply. I buy my calmag from farm suppliers and in answer to miss l toe I feed this amount because it's what Nic Barker told me to give him. No matter whether you have 85% mag ox or more, it's still mag ox rather than pure magnesium so the horse is only getting half the weight in magnesium, in my case he gets 25g a day which works for us. :)
 
Rose Folly said:
Can't help you on the technical side as am not a barefooter, but just to say please be very careful over the issue of stones etc. lodging in the white line. It cost the life of a beautiful (barefoot) livery pony I had nere (continual abscesses).
Click to expand...

Thanks Rose, but that sounds awful, what a sad thing to happen. Like I said though we seem to have cured the problem with Equimins, but I now realise how important it is to make sure it is sorted.

claribella said:
You could try pure magnesium. Naturalhorsesupplies do a pure one which is really good. I would also, as someone else suggested move onto the fast fibre and add linseed.
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Thanks, I'm definitely leaning towards this method now.

CBFan said:
I would definately take them off the VV and add micronised linseed - it will help joints and coat as well as feet so may be no need to feed flexijoint too.

Also consider the grass as being a problem. My boy has just become more sensitive over stony ground which coincides with the rain we have recently had and thus the grass shooting through again.... it is worth restricting their grass in spring and autumn, even if that means supplementing them with a little more hay...
Click to expand...

Thanks, as their both in work at their age, I like to give them something to help their joints (though we don't seem to be having any problems). I was tempted with linseed before but you've just swung the balance :D And the grass is a blinking nightmare, been bad all year. We hardly have any of it at the moment though, hence the haylage.

bikerchickone said:
Sorry Saffron only just seen your reply. I buy my calmag from farm suppliers and in answer to miss l toe I feed this amount because it's what Nic Barker told me to give him. No matter whether you have 85% mag ox or more, it's still mag ox rather than pure magnesium so the horse is only getting half the weight in magnesium, in my case he gets 25g a day which works for us. :)
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A little confused now, are Mag Ox and Calmag different things?

Also, can someone who understands these things please have a look at Equimins Advance Complete for me and tell me how it compares to Pro Hoof / Balance. I can't decipher the different quantities of ingredients.

Thanks guys, you're a great help!
 
SaffronWelshCob said:
Thanks Rose, but that sounds awful, what a sad thing to happen. Like I said though we seem to have cured the problem with Equimins, but I now realise how important it is to make sure it is sorted.



Thanks, I'm definitely leaning towards this method now.



Thanks, as their both in work at their age, I like to give them something to help their joints (though we don't seem to be having any problems). I was tempted with linseed before but you've just swung the balance :D And the grass is a blinking nightmare, been bad all year. We hardly have any of it at the moment though, hence the haylage.



A little confused now, are Mag Ox and Calmag different things?

Also, can someone who understands these things please have a look at Equimins Advance Complete for me and tell me how it compares to Pro Hoof / Balance. I can't decipher the different quantities of ingredients.

Thanks guys, you're a great help!
Click to expand...

Calmag and mag ox are the kind of the same thing, it's just that the mag ox you'll buy on ebay is more refined, read tastes better to the horses, than the mag ox. Nic told me that either will work perfectly well, but still to feed in the 50mg per day quantity because as Lucy Priory said, you only get half that amount of magnesium whichever you use.

I don't know anything about Equimins Advance Complete, the only Equimins product Nic suggested to me was meta balance, but I chose to use Pro Balance+ which is working well for my lad.

Incidentally, if your horse is growing a better connected hoof through correct diet and exercise you shouldn't have a problem with gravel etc traveling up the white line. When my lad left Rockley Nic advised me to remove stones from here for comfort reasons, but also said the stones would not travel up the inside of the hoof wall as he was growing a much better connected hoof. She's right about this, as now, 4 months on from bringing him home the white line is so much better that I rarely have to pick any stones out of it at all. :)
 
Clippy said:
Where are you getting your calmag fom? I'm near Manchester and none of the feed suppliers have heard of it. I'm using Mag-ox heavy as it's all I can get
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Which side of Manchester?

Chelford Farm Supplies sells it for about £13 for a 25 KILO bag.
 
Mag-ox is not only more palatable but gram for gram provides more magnesium, in addition the body is able to absorb it better as well.
I'm not certain of the exact ratio but as far as I can find out you need double the dose of mag-ox to get the correct dose of cal mag, sustained overdosing can result in heart and renal problems.
 
SaffronWelshCob said:
That's a bit scary LD&S. Would it not be easier for me to buy some Pro Balance, and add some linseed, so I know I'm giving the right dose?
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Yep - tis rather simpler tbh unless you're happy you know what you're giving or are forage analysed.

So to recap - you're gonna switch to micronised linseed, pro balance... anything else?
 
http://horsetalk.co.nz/2012/09/27/feeding-magnesium-to-horses/
This is one of the sites that warms of the dangers of giving too much, I had previously found two others but I can't seem to find them tonight, I think it's like most things there is a level at which you can give too much, I give all mine magnesium, one has mag-ox, she won't touch cal mag though the other two have it but I only give the recommeded dose, sometimes I wonder if a horse is particularly spooky there is a temptation to give more than they really need in the hopes that it will make a more substantial change to their behaviour.
I hope I haven't scared anyone, I've found it has not only helped my uber spooky IDx but also my nutty arab stay almost sane but has also along with zinc and copper made a huge differance to their feet.
 
Equimins Advance does have a good broad range of vits and minerals, the pro balance is aimed at balancing the UK fodder, and is often recommended on here for barefoot horses.
When I emailed Equimins about a product with magnesium [horse spooky and barefoot] they recommended Hoof Mender, [in summer I was using Laminator at one third dose, and noticed better concavity], however as far as I can see Hoof Mender does not have as much magnesium as pro hoof based on daily recommendations, but neither seem to have anything like the amount of magnesium recommended on here [25gms]

Approx daily doses for a 500kg horse:
Hoof Builder 750mg [0.75gm] magnesium
Pro Hoof 6000mg [6gm]magnesium
Pro balance 6000mg [6gm] magnesium
Equimins Advance 200mg [0.20gm] magnesium
I think these are correct, it is difficult as every products' ingredients are dealt with in a different way. I must confess that my pony has always had great feet, though they are better than they ever were now he gets linseed and minerals and a wee feed most days in summer. He is still not totally rock crunching when he is on sharp loose gravel over a hard base, and I don't think he ever will be, I just avoid the gravel.
I am going to try increasing his magnesium intake but he is out on on waterlogged acid grassland, and is usually much better if stabled overnight.
 
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LD&S said:
http://horsetalk.co.nz/2012/09/27/feeding-magnesium-to-horses/
This is one of the sites that warms of the dangers of giving too much, I had previously found two others but I can't seem to find them tonight, I think it's like most things there is a level at which you can give too much, I give all mine magnesium, one has mag-ox, she won't touch cal mag though the other two have it but I only give the recommeded dose, sometimes I wonder if a horse is particularly spooky there is a temptation to give more than they really need in the hopes that it will make a more substantial change to their behaviour.
I hope I haven't scared anyone, I've found it has not only helped my uber spooky IDx but also my nutty arab stay almost sane but has also along with zinc and copper made a huge differance to their feet.
Click to expand...
I have picked out [from the above article], the author, Neil Clarkson's recommendation, as there is still some doubt as to the needs of a horse, " the total daily magnesium requirements of a 500kg horse would be 15.5 grams of magnesium oxide"
This seems to be a reasonable amount to try, with little or no danger of over dosing in the UK.
 
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CBFan and Saffron. thanks for the kind remarks. The pony was one of my livery ponies, not my own, but I had grown very fond of him.

Sadly the abscesses did not respond to dietary change (he was being cared for by a famous veterinary group so was in very good hands). In a sense it was my fault. I had a hard track to the stables, the top coating of which was pea sand type stuff. It caused the shod horses no problem, but with the unshod pony the fine grit just worked up into the white line of the hoof. I can remember the vet actually picking minute bits out, from miles up, with tweezers. The owner would have had him re-shod, but he just went downhill inspite of anti-biotics. He moved to another home where there was no gravelly sand type topping but it was too late.

That was the reason I said 'be careful'.
 
Rose Folly said:
CBFan and Saffron. thanks for the kind remarks. The pony was one of my livery ponies, not my own, but I had grown very fond of him.

Sadly the abscesses did not respond to dietary change (he was being cared for by a famous veterinary group so was in very good hands). In a sense it was my fault. I had a hard track to the stables, the top coating of which was pea sand type stuff. It caused the shod horses no problem, but with the unshod pony the fine grit just worked up into the white line of the hoof. I can remember the vet actually picking minute bits out, from miles up, with tweezers. The owner would have had him re-shod, but he just went downhill inspite of anti-biotics. He moved to another home where there was no gravelly sand type topping but it was too late.

That was the reason I said 'be careful'.
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That is sad :( but not your fault. Many barefoot horses will grow a tight white line (with the right diet and movement) that doesn't allow the tiny stones in and it makes no difference how gritty the ground is that they work on, it sounds like this pony had perhaps a metabolic issue that didn't allow him to grow a tight white line?
 
SaffronWelshCob said:
Can i just ask whether there is any different in using Speedibeet as a base to mix everything else into, verses Fast Fibre?
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That's what I do because there's NO way I would need to feed enough FF to get them RDA of vits and mins from the ff I would give them so them you are feeding FF with a bit of mins and vits but not enough so then you add more say the pro hoof then they are getting pro hoof plus a bit in the FF so do give less pro hoof then it's a nightmare mix and you are not sure what they are getting so I only feed things with nothing in the way of vits and minerals added to them so for me that oats ,micronised linseed ,speedibeet ,chopped oat straw and Alfafa adjusted for each horse and then I supplement as required.
 
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