Sorry, another question IOHC in English Springer Spaniels

[brighteyes]

Basically, there's a currently sound, 2yo high-energy dog with a slight Queen Anne leg on one side 'rehome' prospect which is an otherwise perfect dog. Would you risk it? IOHC not formally diagnosed.

 

[Christmascinnamoncookie]

Is this through rescue? Can you meet the dog? How bad is the Queen Anne leg? I’d be concerned about how much the dog can do if it’s high energy and you want to do days out etc.

 

[Parrotperson]

excuse my ignorance but what's IOHC?

 

[CorvusCorax]

Any dogs I've seen with upper arm/elbow problems have become visibly lame/uncomfortable/unable to run and jump without pain at about the ages of 5-7 but some as young as 3-4. I wouldn't consider it.

 

[brighteyes]

As we thought. It's a no.

Thanks all.

 

[brighteyes]

excuse my ignorance but what's IOHC?

Basically this - elbow problems

 

[Parrotperson]

thanks Brighteyes

 

[deb_l222]

Hundreds (if not thousands) of springers have queen anne legs but this alone isn't indicative of IOHC. In fact the one that I personally 'broke' with IOHC, throwing a tennis ball, had the straightest legs you've ever seen.

The one and only way to fully diagnose IOHC is with an x-ray, although they're not always conclusive.

 

[brighteyes]

Hundreds (if not thousands) of springers have queen anne legs but this alone isn't indicative of IOHC. In fact the one that I personally 'broke' with IOHC, throwing a tennis ball, had the straightest legs you've ever seen.

The one and only way to fully diagnose IOHC is with an x-ray, although they're not always conclusive.

Do you have any experience of elbow dysplasia in spaniels with QA legs, or arthritis being more likely?

 

[CorvusCorax]

I agree that only x-rays can offer diagnosis. Not spaniels but my friend had a GSD with 'Queen Anne' legs, elbows are 'still permitted' (Grade 3/5 in that system - BVA goes 0-3 with a recommendation not to breed anything 1 or above) but he always crumpled on landing/came down in a heap over the 1m/A frame and uttered an audible 'oof' and it was horrible to watch. Did club competitions (I wouldn't have), since retired and sound but no jumping. Would be 7 now.

Another friend's dog was 'Moderate' (4/5 and a breeding ban) no bandy legs but started crashing on landing at about 3-4 years. Retired immediately and was having difficulties getting in and out of van this year aged 7 and was PTS earlier this year as his brain and frame could not cope (he was a big dog).

It depends what you want, this is an active, sporty household, I personally wouldn't take on a young dog with a known issue that needs meds or surgery and won't ever improve. If it was an existing/established dog/one I loved and had bonded with, that would be a different matter, of course.

We can now screen for potential of future OCD and spinal problems as well as HD and ED.

 

[brighteyes]

Thank you for your comprehensive answer.

My brother is looking to rehome an active dog and one possibility, which ticked all the other boxes, has one slight QA leg. As it was a 'runner' and swimmer of great enthusiasm, he isn't looking for trouble he can see.

Lost his GSD recently and wiped out his bank account trying to save her.

 

[CorvusCorax]

They tend to be fine as youngsters, it's when they get to middle age that it these issues can start to present as a problem.
That's why I personally wouldn't risk it.
If one wants a dog to live with til double figures, there's no rush when you're looking, especially if you've (he's) already had a bad experience.

As Debs said, you can't diagnose on sight, I know a bitch with 106 hips and she gaited beautifully and was a champion at 18 months.
There are no failsafes, but the best way to ensure a dog has no HD/ED issues is to get one from generations of low scoring ancestors and keep an eye on progeny on either side.
The 'moderate' dog's grandsire has been implicated in bad elbows. He's fine. The dogs behind him are fine. Lots of people still use him because they like all the other attributes he brings. Again, it's not a risk I would take.
I used to have long arguments with people I thought were too picky, and say 'you can't have everything', one dog another friend passed over because the same male was behind her and I thought he was being really hasty/being a perfectionist...he was right....

The other dog 'still OK'...I think was a combination of feeding/rearing/keeping.

 

[deb_l222]

Do you have any experience of elbow dysplasia in spaniels with QA legs, or arthritis being more likely?

None of my dogs have had IOHC, not that I’ve known about anyway but we’ve had a few through springer rescue over the years.

My friend has been unfortunate to have two. The first, undiagnosed and totally shattered her leg chasing a ball. Major surgery to put back together. Her second was diagnosed, following x-rays due to a sporadic limp. Operated on to stabilise and continues to live a normal life.

The one I broke was horrible. Owner was away and he was in kennels boarding. He had played ball a thousand times before but that fateful day, his leg also shattered into multiple tiny pieces. The x-ray of the aftermath was horrific. He was however repaired and died of old age.

My experience is more from queen anne radius and ulna malformation. I’ve had a few dogs with this and I can honestly say, hand on heart, it’s never troubled them. Rufus’ leg was quite extreme but even he didn’t have issues.

I guess what I’m saying is, with a rescue, you never really know what you’re getting when it comes to health checks and have to take a chance as you see fit.

CC is absolutely right about high impact exercise though but after the ball incident, I never, ever again threw another object for my dogs so I didn’t put their joints under that level of stress.

 

[brighteyes]

None of my dogs have had IOHC, not that I’ve known about anyway but we’ve had a few through springer rescue over the years.

My friend has been unfortunate to have two. The first, undiagnosed and totally shattered her leg chasing a ball. Major surgery to put back together. Her second was diagnosed, following x-rays due to a sporadic limp. Operated on to stabilise and continues to live a normal life.

The one I broke was horrible. Owner was away and he was in kennels boarding. He had played ball a thousand times before but that fateful day, his leg also shattered into multiple tiny pieces. The x-ray of the aftermath was horrific. He was however repaired and died of old age.

My experience is more from queen anne radius and ulna malformation. I’ve had a few dogs with this and I can honestly say, hand on heart, it’s never troubled them. Rufus’ leg was quite extreme but even he didn’t have issues.

I guess what I’m saying is, with a rescue, you never really know what you’re getting when it comes to health checks and have to take a chance as you see fit.

CC is absolutely right about high impact exercise though but after the ball incident, I never, ever again threw another object for my dogs so I didn’t put their joints under that level of stress.

Thank you for that x
Just had a message from the owner and they have decided to keep the dog after all - had a viewer and realised it would break them to let theirs go. Kudos to them. They have a dog already that had its shoulder shatter and still bought this second one who is (and I hope forever will stay) fine. A lovely outcome, I reckon. Sounded like really, really decent people, chatting to them and it doesn't surprise me at all that they couldn't go through with it!