Sorry It Just Does Not Sit Right With Me - BHS Mag

Gingerwitch

Gingerwitch

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I was reading my BHS mag today, and one article just leaves me feeling cold. Its the one about surrogate mares, so the "career mum" can continue to "win". What on earth have we become? We are supposed to be a nation of "horse lovers" and i have watched the out cry about the "blue tongue" but using a mare for 4 + years as a breeding machine (not even her real babies) and then PTS!? come on dont we owe these horses something better.

How many embryos are being reared at anyone time from one "prolific mare" - to me it is playing God a little too much. Mares have a 11 month cycle, what is to stop unscurpulous people having heaven knows how many surogate mares in foal.

Yes i agree it is a "wonderful" option for many if they are faced with the dilema of finding a new home for a 4 to 10 year old mare that has riding difficulties or is injured - but it was the banging on that when mare is finished with she is offered back to her owner or PTS.

Yes i agree it theoretically stops poor and indisciminate breeding but at the end of the day do we really know how well these animals will turn out and could we end up with a glut of very expensive yearlings.

What saddend me the most is that the article appeard to get very good support from the BHS, and yes i am sure they have much more pressing issues to deal with. But the article has really left me feeling rather hollow and almost ashamed to belong to the horse world.

Whilst i am outraged at many issues facing the care of lots of animals i wonder if this had been reported as a "injured mare, forced to carry embryo for top eventer, until no longer useful, then eutanised" is perhaps another way of looking at it.


Sorry gettting off my soap box now, and i await to be shot down in flames - but to me it feels almost "puppy farmish"
 
Ive not thought about it in that much depth but i suppose ET is only for human gain. Like lots of things we do with horses though.

Yes, it is another form of farming.
 
Do you have a link to it - sorry I dont have the mag.
I knew this happened but am confused about the PTS or given back to the owner bit. I thought it was a rare thing to be a surrogate and they had a home for life. Have I got that wrong??
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I don't see whats bad with it??
Its natural for a horse to be a baby making machine - do you think the horse cares if its their foal or not??

"injured mare, forced to carry embryo for top eventer, until no longer useful, then eutanised"
Just like any other breeding mare surely?? they (usually/sometimes) put them down when they are no longer 'useful'.

I can't see the relation to puppy farming and this tbh. If the mare is well looked after, and has a nice breeding life (so not been cooped up in a stable 24/7 and been out in a herd on acres of land) then I honestly can't see it being the same?? I think most horses would kill for that life
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Well injured mare will probably be either bred from herself ( which equals foal probably more susceptible to injury than a foal bred from sound mare by ET), or PTS anyway. It might as well have a job for a few more years, and a much more natural, cushy job than that of most riding horses.

The only loser in the situation is the sound mare whose embryos are taken, she loses her year off to have a foal!
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xGinnyx I agree that some horses would kill for that type of life, but when it is so obvious that this is done for pure commerical gain it makes me very sad to be associated with the industry. No of course the mare does not know or care that it is not her embryo, but i suppose it is the harsh realisation that we expect so much from our horses but give them so little in return. Ok at least they are pts at the end of it, and not sent off on some horrific journey to be slaughtered but it was the atricles appearance of "isnt this a nice thing to do blah blah blah" and it reads that they are almost doing the mare a favour of honouring it by keeping it alive for another few years before it is pts.

I know it is my heart ruling my head, but come on BHS, how can you rally support for the welfare of horses when you not only condone this industry but are obviously supporting it. Are we saying that as long as said horse is well looked after then you can do anything you like to it! dont you think that that is really sad.

Misst - the mare has a home for as long as it is useful - when it can no longer carry its surrogate foals it is offered back to the owner or pts
 
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it reads that they are almost doing the mare a favour of honouring it by keeping it alive for another few years before it is pts.


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Well they are.
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I suppose if it stops the injured mare from carrying 'any old foal' then it has to be better to be carrying one of proven ability from both sides. Too often, it's just the proven stallion which has been chosen to 'complement' dear old Flossie who, despite her cow hocks, sway back, pigeon-toes and complete inability to stay sound has been a lovely lawn-mower since the kids outgrew her.
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Some people we know have a prime of life mare which has suffered from a mysterious and variable degree of lameness, and though she has good confo and a reasonable jump, has never won a class in her life. She is destined to have foals and the family are cultivating a vet amongst their members
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It really beggars belief. Except they are farmers and an animal isn't worth anything unless it's doing a job
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I think breeding should be very tightly governed, full stop. I don't care how many ET mares are out there - flooding the planet with ''shorter odds of being a superstar' foals, just because we can, is no way forward and inexcusable.

Cloning, I think, is preferable - if you could guarantee a problem-free life for the foals. Thing is, you aren't allowed short-cuts to success, even if it means animal welfare is improved. Oh yes, we are truly a nation of animal lovers - not
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I agree its very disconcerting ethically. I wonder what industry (within the horse umbrella obviously) is the highest user of this: racing, eventing, something else...? Is it allowed in Wetherbys?

When you look at the TB industry breeding programs, its so unatural, so far removed from the wild, and its one small part of the racing industry's machine that turns out race horses like a factory. When the rest of us are waking up to the fact that horses are sentinent beings and actually, its better for lots of reasons to keep them as naturally as possible, this industry appears to be carrying on its own very different path.
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It does make you sad, my old horse who would die for you, and has a fantastic jump was diagnosed with navicular about 12 years ago - my choices were - pts, send to slaughter, put in foal or wait and see.

I chose wait and see and we had another good 8 years from her working before she was semi retired 3 years ago, and fully retired this year.

She was the best horse i will ever handle on the ground, but i could not bring myself to breed from her - what chance would the foal have had?

I really wish the government would drop the horse tax and implement a £100 fee for breeding - at least some of these poor little mites would be prevented from suffering - especially when you read JM07's post about seeing a pregnant mare, and her foal being weaned at a sale - only prevented by the auctioneer! and the pityful price of foals at the latest sales
 
i don't think it's that bad tbh, imho this is a LOT worse:
i was told that the many of the top TB studs have a field full of half-bred mares, which they cover for free at weekly-ish intervals so that there is a regular crop of foals, and then if a TB mare rejects her very valuable foal (or dies, or has no milk) they take the 1/2 bred foal, kill it, skin it, and use the mum as a foster mother.
so, this poor foal is killed just because its skin is needed.
i find that absolutely DISGUSTING, but i suppose it all comes down to the economics.
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btw, iirc Pippa's Bits and Pieces was by a top stallion out of a 1/2 bred mare, one of the ones whose skin wasn't needed, not sure if that's definitely true though.

compared to that, i think a nice few years as a mum is a pretty good deal...
 
Kerilli - the more i learn the more i loathe the human race ! this year i have learnt more about how barbaric we are to the horse than i have ever dreamed off, blue tonuge and worried eyes, horse fighting, embryo transfer, hrt, .... when will this world stop surprising me with its horrors!?

I wish you were wrong about the foals, but sadly i am pretty positive that it is true.

I think the whole breeding industry needs looking at - one of my friends had a still born foal, due to the mare catching something from the stallion who was not being cleaned between serving various mares. And the state the stallions were kept in made me cry -I was asked to change one of the waters for one of the stallions, and he literally pinned me against the wall - why because i had on some aromatheropy oils as i was very stressed at the time. The stallion licked and licked at my wrists - i was petrified - the owner came over and just got a cattle prod - the horse saw him appoach, the horse left me alone !

Or is all of this just typical of our throw away society, if it breaks through it away and get a new one. Or do we simply not understand horses, it is within a lifetime when horses were worked till they literally dropped, and to have a horse past the age of 15 was a bit of a "freak",. When i was 10 to buy a horse over the age of 10 was a talking point!
 
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And the state the stallions were kept in made me cry -I was asked to change one of the waters for one of the stallions, and he literally pinned me against the wall - why because i had on some aromatheropy oils as i was very stressed at the time. The stallion licked and licked at my wrists - i was petrified - the owner came over and just got a cattle prod - the horse saw him appoach, the horse left me alone !


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With what very little I know about Aromatherapy, I would imagine this stallion really needed the benefit of the oils you were using, and that however scared you were of his behaviour, he did it because he desperately needed the oils for healing himself.

No wonder if his living conditions were dire and, at a risk of repeating myself - far removed from the way nature intended.

I hope you take comfort from the fact that he probably did benefit hugely from licking your wrists, even if it petrified you!


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I despair of the treatment horses get too. I wont start ranting because i will be here all day with examples of things that p1ss me off!

Poor welfare really gets to me too!
 
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if a TB mare rejects her very valuable foal (or dies, or has no milk) they take the 1/2 bred foal, kill it, skin it, and use the mum as a foster mother.
so, this poor foal is killed just because its skin is needed.
i find that absolutely DISGUSTING, but i suppose it all comes down to the economics.
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compared to that, i think a nice few years as a mum is a pretty good deal...

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My uncle was a vet on a stud farm for many years and whilst they did have surrogate mares, the foals were certainly not skinned. Uncle put some PJs (I don't know how else to describe it!) on the foal as soon as it was born, then put the PJs on the foal to be adopted. Worked a treat. The original foals were then hand reared.
I can't say whether or not the practices you describe happen. It would sadden me hugely if they did!
 
Naturally - i asked the girl who had given me the oils - and she said theywere for anxiety, fear and stress - i think frankensense was one of them and this was for loss!

Yes i was really frightend, the power of a stallion is like an electric charge, you can taste it, feel it but just cannot see it - poor mite - he was 700kg of horse power in a 10ft x 12ft prison, no light, no ventilation, and all the way around his stable was a wire of about 3mm that had a huge electric current running through - so he could not even rest against the wall.

That place was in Durham, and i saw this poor poor petrified mare, hobbled, twitched and virtually raped by a rather amourous stallion - it was pityful and barbaric to be presant whilst it went on - but i was too much of a coward to say much then - i was a lot younger.
 
Gingerwitch, what you said about the stallion, I'm in tears here. Horses have been the backbone, literally, of our civilisation (I use the word loosely) and it's just beyond me how we have twisted and turned their wonderful willing, forgiving, genorous natures to out own selfish use.
 
Why are they PTS after 4 foals?
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My YO has ET foals; he sends his mares off for ET with some recipient mares, but he doesn't necessarily get the same ones back... whichever mare is cycling at the right time is used and that's the one you get. From what I've seen they get a pretty good life; out all day, plenty of food...
 
PapaFrita - sorry for any confusion but the mare is required on loan for 4 years minimum, they are taken on between the ages of 4 and 10, but when they become usless they are offered back or pts.

Kareef - i often beat myself up for not reporting the goings on at this yard - i tried but the RSPCA were not interested, i even though of reporting them to the council as they were not a registered buisness - but as i lived alone in the area and did have an awful lot of personal problems i did nothing - a fact i am deeply ashamed of to this day!
 
They are only PTS if they owner cannot take them back though - and surely that is better than them being sent to the sales? After all, there is usually a v good reason why they are being used as ET mares not either being ridden or used as broodmares themselves.

I looked into it and had a few chats with Beaufort ET place for my old mare (as in a mare I used to own, not one who was old!!).

The reality is that mares like Headley Brittania are tremendously valuable as competition animals, and her foals will also be incredibly valuable. At least a decent horse is being bred from and produced rather than the dross which ends up going through the sales because people breed from the mares which would be better placed to never be bred from.
 
I have no issue with encouraging a quality animal to be bred, rarther than next weeks French lunch. My problem is that the BHS is apparantly condoning this "use it till its no good, then pts attituded". Is that how they want to be seen?, so much for there welfare section - how on earth can they now dish advice out to anyone who is giving a horse a good standard of living- no matter what they intend to do with it? The piccalo horses have a good standard of living, the blue tongue and worried eye horses have a good standard of living - but it is still cruel.

Sorry BHS - for me you have shot yourselves in the foot - can you imagine the outcry if they had allowed carrot and spud to be pts after a weeks being well looked after? And old saying is:- you cant run with the hounds and the hare, well BHS you need to decided if you are concerend with the equine welfare or are happy to sell your sole to the commerical devils amongst the so called "horse world" and shame on the editior for publilshing this article in this manner.

The BHS, through this article have now condoned the "its no use, shoot it" argument, and i for one am ashamed.
 
Well frankly shooting it if it is no use sits far better with me than passing it on to some unknown fate via a dealer or the sales. We can't all have the luxury of keeping our horses until they die naturally or are PTS at some grand old age. It just is not practical or feasible if you have limited funds and no land of your own.
 
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The BHS, through this article have now condoned the "its no use, shoot it" argument, and i for one am ashamed.

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The "its no use, shoot it" argument is an argument on its own. The fact is, ET creates a job for horses that would otherwise be useless. I can't see how that's anything but a good thing.
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I do agree with you that breeding more super-duper competition horses may end up with a surplus of waste superstars that aren't the best of the best so the pros don't want them but amateurs can't ride them. There does need to be more emphasis on breeding sound all-purpose horses.
 
Thats the bit i do not get - how can we as a country of "animal lovers" justify the use it or shoot it mentality - stuff it being a luxuary to keep a horse into its older years - where is OUR loyalty? I agree having an unwanted animal pts is better than sending it off to the sales - no doubt to its demise in some slaughter house on the continent - but lets not wolley things up and PRETEND to be animal lovers/concerned with equine welfare then.

A lady at our yard was given a lecture by the local vet pratice, and she was told that they would not just put a horse to sleep because the owner could not afford it! Ok so the vets are on their moral soap box, the BHS is banging on about Horse Welfare, and i am saying that welfare does not stop being an issue just because said neddy is no longer uselful. Do we really want to be one of these that has had the best from a horse and then-when it needs a bit of TLC and time we say "oh you cant do what i want so your dead". I pity people that only want animals for their own pleasure - you are missing out on some of the most important lessons you can learn.
 
I don't think I agree with you, although the issues you raise are very interesting.

On the PTS issue, the reality is that domesticated animals are there because we have a use for them. I don't think there is anything terribly wrong with PTS an animal that no longer has a use as long as the death is humane. This is even more true if otherwise the animal is likely to end up being a welfare case. It is totally unrealistic to expect the millions of domestic animals to live out their natural lives in bliss in big farms somewhere.

Which connects to the breeding issue: I have more of a problem with the irresponsible breeding which results in large number of unwanted animals, than with the PTS of these animals. Breeding better quality animals, which are more likely to be useful can only be a good thing.

As for the 'naturalness' of using surrogacy it's no more unnatural than giving antibiotics for an infection. Human babies are conceived through IVF and carried to term by surrogates and I see absolutely no problem with that. Early fears with the first IVF babies included worries that the process was so 'unnatural' the babies 'would not be human', would not bond with their mothers, would have serious psychological problems, etc...all turned out to be rubbish of course. Removing a fertilised egg from a mare causes her no harm and is akin to spontaneous miscarriage which happens relatively frequently and carrying a genetically unrelated embryo is irrelevant to the host mare.
 
Booboos - i just dont think we are fair on these animals. Ok i agree you pay your money you want the best for it- but it still does not sit easy with me. Yes maybe i am lucky and can afford my old horses to live out there lives in comfort - but i knew when i brought them that they were here for the "long haul" and not just to use them until the were no longer useful to me.
Yes - I admire people who are so cut and fast and can let emotions evade them when the animal is no longer useful - but i love my horses with all my heart and i value that they trust me and like me enough back. I just think as the human race goes on we are becoming to clinical.

My mum and dad are now in their 70's - they will shortly retire from being useful - shall i have them pts? nought wrong with them - they have given me the best years of their lives, and are probaly going to cost me dear in time and resources over the next 10 to 20 years (hopefully) - same as my old girl. She gave me everything she could and more for 12 years - she now is "no use" to me - should i just have her pts? its one less stable to pay for, its one less horse to care for. Can you honestly imagine me putting a pro pts post for a healthy horse - no longer useful and the responses it would get.

Old age is part of buying an animal - if you dont want the responsibility you dont deserve their prime
 
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Old age is part of buying an animal - if you dont want the responsibility you dont deserve their prime

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Thank goodness - I was beginning to think I was the only one that thought this!

I have no problem with euthanisia on medical / welfare grounds, but shooting a horse just because it can't work anymore makes me very uncomfortable.
 
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