Sound laminitic horse?

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LDH

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Hi

I'm new!!

I am just wondering if anyone has come across a horse who shows some signs of laminitis but is perfectly sound for riding? My horse has been standing back on his heels & shifting weight from foot to foot (fronts) the last few summers while resting. I've had him checked by 3 farriers, local vets & have had him in the hospital twice & no real answer. Vet at hospital said he would pass a vetting, that he looks sound. Also my trainer who sees him regularly says he looks perfectly fine. He was fine all winter - no leaning back. I was a bit more clued in this spring/summer so was able to spot the onset of it fairly early & it seemed to start after he grazed in a new field with fresh grass (not on it anymore). I have him in during the day now & out at night, he's still standing the same though. I thought last year maybe it was from the hard ground out eventing but it started this year before I even started to compete him & fields at home werent all that hard.

Just wondering if anyone has encountered something similar...
 
They can certainly appear sound if lame in both feet.

Better to treat him as though he has got laminitis to be on the safe side.

Hard ground can bring on laminitis as well as grass, tbh many things can bring it on unfortunately.

If he were mine I would keep him in on a deep bed and see if he still displays the symptoms in a few days.
 
I'm not sure if you read my entire post but I was just wondering if anyone else has experienced this with a horse & has any ideas on what it might be thats wrong with him. He is completely sound & in full work. The vets have xrayed etc & says he is showing no physical signs of laminitis (apart from how he is standing etc) & told me to ignore the symptoms & continue with work unless he becomes lame.
 
has he been nerve blocked on one side and then observed?
Bilaterally lame horses can appear sound until you do this.
assuming shod?

Ignoring subtle signs until the horse becomes more lame on one side is certainly a risky strategy IMO.

Are you aware of low grade laminitis (LGL)? some vets are only just coming round to the idea that it exists.

It sounds like you have a very grass sensitive horse to me, any chance of a metabolic issue?

It would be interesting to see how he lands in slow mo, just in case it is excessive heel first also indicating toe pain.
 
agree with ester I have seen a completely sound horse nerve blocked in one foot and trot off looking very lame, for the price of a nerve block it might be something to consider, have you tried keeping him off the grass completely to see if the symptoms stop it's one way of knowing then if it is the grass causing it?

I must admit every horse I have seen with laminitis looks very lame and look even worse on the hard stony ground, and if they have the laminitis stance and are weight shifting they look crippled when asked to walk.
 
No havent had nerve block & as i said looks sound on all ground. If you seen him you would say it is definitely not laminitis!!!!! He is fit, healthy & very active & enjoys his work.

He's been doing this stance for the last few months & i have kept working him & he hasn't gotten any worse. I would have thought with laminitis it would get worse no?

Think Ill keep him in for few days & see how it goes.

Is it possible for a horse to just get footy from eating grass - does it have to be laminitis?
 
I find it very disturbing that your vets have been presented with a horse which is both rocking back on his heels and rocking from one front foot to the other and have not properly investigated him for lameness. If you don't want to nerve block one side, can I suggest you try a bute trial. I'd bet that one or the other will show up that the horse is in pain in the feet with low grade laminitis, which is being kept under control with work but not completely eliminated.

I couldn't, personally, ride a horse which I see rocking from one foot to the other only when it's eating spring/summer grass. I know you are doing it on veterinary advice, but for me I know of no other reason why a horse would do that without being in pain. I wouldn't be happy with the advice your vets are giving you, sorry
 
And in answer to your question, yes, I've had one horse foot-rock once. She was completely sound to ride. I immediately removed her from the grass and she stopped doing it.
 
If I thought a horse was footy from grass the only thing I would think it was is laminitis and then test for any metabolic problems like cushings or ems, has your vet suggested testing for these ?
 
My vet said from looking at his xrays that his toe was too long & that he didnt have enough heel support & that by not shoeing him correctly could be putting a strain on ligaments in the foot. He siad to shorten his toe & heighten his heels & set the shoe back under the foot. He was fine then for months over the winter but now it has flared up again & then I realised recently that his heels looked very low again so I have been onto the farrier about them & he has started to give him more heel again. Im not sure how much of it has to do with his shoeing & how much is the grass. Heads in a whirl to be honest as I have tried so hard to get to the bottom of it.

Vet said that the only other thing he could try would be an MRI but because its so expensive & theres no lameness he cant justify it plus I cant afford it.

I should point out also that last year when he was at the hospital last there was lameness in his right front foot - vet said very slight, 1 in 10. There has been no lameness this year. Head has been wrecked trying to get answers the last 2 years. 2 farriers told me that he definitely doesnt have laminits over the course of this time.
 
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No vet never suggested getting tested for these but I have a different vet coming to do some work on Monday so will ask her advice & get him tested.
 
It would be good to get a second opinion.
Of course it is possible for a horse to get footy from eating grass, it might not turn into full blown lami as you get an early warning (this is particularly a benefit of not having shoes on as you get that as an early warning sign and can take action). But that is why I mentioned low grade lami -

Your vets and farrier are telling you not laminitis because they are not seeing any stretching of the laminae/blood in white line or movement of the pedal bone. This doesn't mean that no laminae inflammation is occurring just that it isn't visible by the time it hits the bottom of the hoof. I assume also that they don't get a reaction to hoof testers in the toe area although if the horse is rocking/taking the weight off the toes I'm not sure how.

Horses shouldn't have sore toes, yours is giving plenty of indicators he has sore toes, I think it is a very risky strategy to ignore that and it is entirely possible he is bilaterally lame.

It doesn't sound like he has optimal feet at all either. How old is the horse?

We can only go from what you are saying and in your position I would have the horse off the grass and feed only hay to see if that helped and testing for metabolic issues - cushings/EMS/IR which make feet more sensitive (which can eventually develop into lami) and take it from there.
 
Hi Ester

Thanks for your reply. I really appreciate you taking the time to give your opinion.

He is 11 years old & I have been eventing him 5 or 6 years.

When you say he doesnt sound like he has optimal feet - what do you mean?

I have him in now for a few days so will see how he gets on. How soon would you normally see a difference? Will the vet just take blood samples to test for those problems? I will have a chat with her when she gets here.

Thanks again.
 
and inclination to long toes, low heels and potentially sore = not optimal, maybe more than one thing going on.
the long toe/low heel thing can be tricky to correct properly in shoes. My chap ended up in that situ and we did manage to get his feet to look better in shoes but he wasn't any sounder because the heels still weren't doing what they should have been. You may also need to consider if he is weighting his heels that won't help either if they aren't up to the job because it may just crush the tubules further/send them even more forwards. Does that make sense?
I guess what I am getting at is that you might need to look at him and his feet as a whole in order to possibly get to the bottom of this. I do understand your frustration at struggling with it the last couple of years and if you have had had him that long you do know him well.
I've the vet due tomorrow for my chap, for something most people wouldn't worry about but I know, after 11 years it isn't normal for him so needs checking.

I would expect to see a difference pretty quickly once off grass, within a week. ycbm has had a couple of very grass sensitives I think so can maybe advise better on that. My chap isn't terribly affected.

Ps I only asked on the age front to get a bit more of a picture/see how likely the cushings side might be although obviously they can get it younger.

would you mind reporting back? It would be interesting to see what is said/thought.

Oh and welcome to the forum! Make sure to meet the others not just the hoof geeks!
 
I will of course report back.

Im always chatting to people about it & everyone keeps saying ive done all i can & if hes sound to ride then theres not much more i can do unless he gets lame but i just cant bear looking at him standing uncomfortably. Ive done so much research online but never came across any articles that suggested a horse could be sound if they had laminitis.

Im not sure i understand what u are saying about his heels. Is there a possibility that there is long term damage to them which will hinder correcting his feet?

Thanks again.
 
My horse is very grass sensitive and has EMS, from April onwards every year I have a constant battle to stop him getting full-blown laminitis. He's always muzzled when turned out, and can only go out for short periods on a new field until it has been eaten down. I check his digital pulses religiously and keep him off the grass totally for a few days if they are more noticeable than usual.

Even so, he still becomes footsore on occasion with low grade laminitis, also bilaterally so it's very hard to see if you don't know him well, only real symptom on soft ground or Tarmac is not wanting to go forwards properly, no obvious lameness, but if you take him on rough ground it becomes very obvious that he's footsore. It's also much harder to detect early when he's shod, even on rough ground.

His feet look brilliant, no rings, nice thick walls and concave soles, because we've always managed to control the inflammation early before the laminae have actually started to fail, so he has no outward signs of laminitis so far.
We do live on a bit of a knife edge though, and it's pretty hard work and stressful at this time of year, just when horsekeeping should be easy and fun...

Hope you get to the bottom of it, does sound very much like low grade laminitis though.
 
Thanks very much MrsNorris. Sounds like you have your hands full this time of year. I can honestly say that my horse has displayed no signs of lameness. He is being ridden, is forward, enjoying his work - gets excited to be jumping!!!! I genuinely find it hard to believe that he would want to cross a fence if he was sore. But maybe I am totally wrong!!!!!

I am going to continue with some light arena work over the next 2 weeks while keeping him off the grass also. I have also ordered X Lam Aid which I have heard is very good. And new vet coming Monday so will get her opinion also.

Don't think there is much more I can do for now. Will be a lot more clued in once I see what effect no grass has on him & hopefully then if hes feeling much better I can start to turn him out late at night again & manage it better from there.
 
Just wondering what would people recommend feeding a working horse with possible EMS? I currently feed a scoop of wet speedi beet, half scoop of Redmills Horse Care 10 & 200g of Gain Opti Care Balancer 3 times a day with rapeseed oil, comfort gut, msm & electrolytes also. I want to get him on the best possible diet to give him all the help I can to make him better but he also needs energy. He is at an ideal weight at the moment.
 
LDH said:
Thanks very much MrsNorris. Sounds like you have your hands full this time of year. I can honestly say that my horse has displayed no signs of lameness. He is being ridden, is forward, enjoying his work - gets excited to be jumping!!!! I genuinely find it hard to believe that he would want to cross a fence if he was sore. But maybe I am totally wrong!!

I am going to continue with some light arena work over the next 2 weeks while keeping him off the grass also. I have also ordered X Lam Aid which I have heard is very good. And new vet coming Monday so will get her opinion also.

Don't think there is much more I can do for now. Will be a lot more clued in once I see what effect no grass has on him & hopefully then if hes feeling much better I can start to turn him out late at night again & manage it better from there.
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That should give you your answer re LGL, it only takes a few days to a week for mine to settle again. Do you check his digital pulses at all? It's not infallible but will give you a good idea if there's anything going on with his feet. Not sure on diet, don't recognise that balancer, speedo beet is good though. Good luck.
 
I'd cut the redmills out pronto!
'Soya (bean) hulls (1), Dried (sugar) beet pulp, Barley, Wheatfeed, Alfalfa meal, Cane molasses, Maize, Soya bean extruded (1), Soya oil (1), Sunflower seed meal, Monodicalcium phosphate, Sodium chloride, Maerl 0.75% (2), Magnesium oxide, Sodium bicarbonate, Mannan-/fructooligosaccharides 0.2% (3) (1) produced from genetically modified soya beans, (2) Acidbuf, (3) MicroFOS Ultra'

see how high cane molasses is on the ingredients list :p
 
Thanks Ester. Think I might put him onto that Coolstance Copra stuff.

Do you know of any general vit & mineral supplements that are good for lami horses? I know they need increased levels of certain minerals etc..
 
coolstance is good ;)

mag oxide is good for lami/EMS all that jazz.

Overall for feet/general well being you need a good no iron supplement like forageplus/pro hoof (ebay)/equivita/equimins advanced complete - I use the latter but also because my grazing is analysed add extra mag ox because our calcium is very high.
 
ester said:
coolstance is good ;)

mag oxide is good for lami/EMS all that jazz.

Overall for feet/general well being you need a good no iron supplement like forageplus/pro hoof (ebay)/equivita/equimins advanced complete - I use the latter but also because my grazing is analysed add extra mag ox because our calcium is very high.
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Second equimins advanced, I feed this too plus mag ox, chromium, salt and linseed. Am also trialling alcar, not sure if it's making any difference yet, still early days.
 
ester said:
I assume also that they don't get a reaction to hoof testers in the toe area although if the horse is rocking/taking the weight off the toes I'm not sure how.
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My horse had laminitis last year and one pedal bone slightly rotated. He didn't react to hoof testers and the vet said that although most do, there are the odd ones who don't particularly those with large feet like my boy.

I had the farrier test him before the vet and it lulled me into a false sense of security when the farrier said he's never had a case of laminitis that didn't react to the hoof testers.
 
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