Wagtail
Horse servant
Just wondered what other people would view as the behaviour of a sour horse? Thanks.
Sour Horse?
- Thread starter Wagtail
- Start date
TheMule
Well-Known Member
I have a little mare I'd say had gone sour- too much standing in the stable, grilling in the school with little understanding of working a horse sympathetically- made her bridle lame, nappy and awkward at times.
Full time turn out, some time off, lots of hacking, short bouts of quality work and she's super!
Full time turn out, some time off, lots of hacking, short bouts of quality work and she's super!
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
I knew a school sour horse. He was bright, relaxed and forward on a hack and like he had his handbrake on in the school, plus tense and prone to napping at the gate. It was pretty obvious in his case.
Wagtail
Horse servant
We have this mare who I think may be sour. It's been going on for years. She would be nappy in the school, looked in pain going forwards. Had a fortune spent on her trying to get to the bottom of it. Found gastric ulcers and once treated, she came right. Then it all started again after having a foal. This time she was found to be really 'locked up'. Finally came right again with lots of physio. She has close but not touching spinal processes but was no better with injections. Saddle and teeth done regularly. Never asked to work hard but lately started to refuse to go forward for her owner and then even myself. Physio said nothing wrong. We got a pro rider in and she went well for him at first but then started acting up after about 30 minutes in the school. Finally she reared up and flipped over. Thankfully both horse and rider were fine and he got straight back on and did another 15 minutes hard work and she behaved well. My only worry is, the only other time she has done that was a few years ago with me. Again she was being asked to work hard and she just went from a good trot to bolt upright and teetering with me looking at the fence below and thinking she's coming down on the fence with me underneath her. That was when we found she had the ulcers. She definitely doesn't have ulcers now as she has been scoped and is also kept on a maintenance level of omeprazole with probiotic. The physio thinks this could have given her hind gut ulcers. But she also thinks the rearing is just bad temper, and so does her owner. I'm thinking either the mare is sour, or is still in some pain. So frustrating as I have to ride her and I can't be 100% sure in my own mind there isn't a pain issue, which makes me less committed, and her more likely to sense this. I really don't know what to do as this has gone on for years. I so wish they could talk.
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TheMule
Well-Known Member
It does sound like pain- if it comes out of the blue that's an extreme reaction to a serious trigger. It doesnt sound like she's safe or suitable to work in the school- does she hack out ok?
Wagtail
Horse servant
She hasn't hacked out for a while due to us having to trailer to somewhere suitable. We used to hack out from the yard but don't have a suitable 'nanny horse' here now. We have to cross a busy road to get to our hacking. I might set up a track system round the paddocks. We have a half mile long driveway to which I could encompass into a mile long loop.
Wagtail
Horse servant
That's really nice to hear. Glad she's got a good home now.
That's what this mare is like. I do think we need to get her out hacking and see how she is.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Wagtail , that does not sound like a sour horse it sounds like a in pain one .
Sour horses feel IME extremely lazy and disinterested rearing and flipping would be far too much energy .
" not right ' or sour hacking can only do good .
Sour horses feel IME extremely lazy and disinterested rearing and flipping would be far too much energy .
" not right ' or sour hacking can only do good .
L&M
Well-Known Member
We bought a ring sour BSJA pony - he was lovely in everyway but when show jumping just lacked any enthusiasm and would throw in stops at 70cm even though had competed 1.10 very successfully (had £365 winnings).
The owners were very honest and we were looking for a hunting pony - despite never having hunted, he had such a good temperament we took a punt and he proved to be a star and would rocket launch over hunt jumps all day long. He just needed a change in 'job'.
As others have said, your mare's issue sound more physical than mental....
The owners were very honest and we were looking for a hunting pony - despite never having hunted, he had such a good temperament we took a punt and he proved to be a star and would rocket launch over hunt jumps all day long. He just needed a change in 'job'.
As others have said, your mare's issue sound more physical than mental....
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
I have to agree - the rearing and flipping over does make me think that something more is going on.
Wagtail
Horse servant
Thank you. You have confirmed my thinking on this. Unfortunately, I am up against everyone else as all others involved with her are convinced it is just stroppy marish behaviour. Her owner adores her and has spent a fortune investigating and trying every avenue possible. I know I will be viewed as negative and as putting a downer on things. The pro rider says she just needed to get it out of her system and should be fine now. She looked fabulous whilst she was working for him. Not at all like she was in pain. But then I keep asking myself, why put that much energy into an evasion after 30 minutes of good work unless she was getting desperate due to pain? I have to ride her tomorrow and I feel totally depressed about it.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
If you have reservations about riding this mare, then don't. It's not worth it.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Don't ride horses you feel depressed about getting on life is too short.
Wagtail
Horse servant
Thanks. I will have to do it. I am not worried she will do it with me as I'm not going to ride her into the spot where she did it twice. I am depressed about it because I know the horse, for whatever reason, really does not want to be ridden. I would have thrown the towel in and retired her long ago if she were mine, but the owner has vet, chiro and pro rider all telling her she is fine. I have nothing but my own instincts to back up my feelings about there still being a pain element. I may try talking with the owner one more time and point out that the only other time she did it was when she was genuinely in pain, but I know it will fall on deaf ears. After all she is delighted that the mare performed so well for the pro rider (and the flipping over was just her 'getting a bit stroppy because she didn't want to work'.
Burmilla
Well-Known Member
Hi Wagtail - you don't have to ride this horse if you believe she is in pain. To do so would be unethical and unsafe. What would happen if you said that to the horse's owner? If she is determined not to listen to her horse/you, the pro can ride her. I'm sorry you and the horse are having to go through this.
touchstone
Well-Known Member
What an awful situation, personally if I felt the horse was in pain then I wouldn't ride either. If this has been going on for a few years, then presumably the examinations that were done initially may need repeating if they haven't been done for a while, I'm no expert on kissing spines so just guessing, but presumably they could worsen as the horse ages or changes shape physically such as after foaling/ageing? The trouble is that you can only give your thoughts and it is up to the owner whether she listens or not. 
Wagtail
Horse servant
What an awful situation, personally if I felt the horse was in pain then I wouldn't ride either. If this has been going on for a few years, then presumably the examinations that were done initially may need repeating if they haven't been done for a while, I'm no expert on kissing spines so just guessing, but presumably they could worsen as the horse ages or changes shape physically such as after foaling/ageing? The trouble is that you can only give your thoughts and it is up to the owner whether she listens or not.
I rang my old trainer and she said the reaction screams pain to her. I know for a fact the last time she did it she was in pain from ulcers and I think it was this that was sitting at the back of my mind and depressing me. I have decided not to ride her but I feel I am letting her owner down so much. She is a lovely lady who loves this horse to bits, All the experts are telling her her horse is not in pain and the rear was born out of stroppiness, so I have been so torn. But I have never had this feeling before about riding a horse. It really is depression, not fear, just being really down and feeling so wrong about it.
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Meowy Catkin
Meow!
You're doing the right thing.
This makes me sad. Have they checked that she hasn't hurt herself when she flipped over?
I'm not saying that all horses who rear are in pain, my old TB loved rearing and would do it from sheer joie de vivre. It was a delight watching her out with the youngsters when they were all having a gallop and play.
This makes me sad. Have they checked that she hasn't hurt herself when she flipped over?
I'm not saying that all horses who rear are in pain, my old TB loved rearing and would do it from sheer joie de vivre. It was a delight watching her out with the youngsters when they were all having a gallop and play.
Wagtail
Horse servant
That's the thing, this horse NEVER rears in the field. It is so out of character for her. She sometimes lifts her front end about six inches off the ground and bounces when she sees her feed coming, but that is the extent of it.
She had the chiro straight afterwards and she was fine. But she swishes her tail and kicks up every time she is asked to lift her back. This could possibly be due to hind gut ulcer pain. She 100% does not have gastric ulcers but hind gut ulcers are not at all easy to diagnose.
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MS123
Well-Known Member
Sounds as if she's screaming out she's in pain, but noone bar you Wagtail is listening.
I would refuse to get back on her until further investigations were had. It's easier to put the "bad behaviour" stamp on it when horses are in pain. I guess sometimes it is hard to differ between the two, but given this mares history I suspect she is in pain.
I would refuse to get back on her until further investigations were had. It's easier to put the "bad behaviour" stamp on it when horses are in pain. I guess sometimes it is hard to differ between the two, but given this mares history I suspect she is in pain.
Crosshill Pacers
Well-Known Member
I felt my boy was sour when I bought him. By his previous owner's own admission he'd been over-raced last season and was sick of it; his behaviour in the stable was lethargic and when someone was in his personal space, especially whilst eating, almost aggressive. He was very lean and generally miserable looking. The first few times he was taken out in the cart with us he was evasive, tanking off at every opportunity and refusing to listen to what was being asked.
We've worked hard to get him to enjoy his work again, which he does. He's still anti-social in terms of handling but once he's in his harness he's as happy as Larry doing his work. He seems happy at the races and has even managed to win a race for me. The remainder of his original behaviour appears to be his personality. The moment I realised we'd turned him around was when a friend, who had seen him at the sale I bought him at, commented on some photos of him working on Facebook telling me how lovely it was to see the horse enjoying his work because when she'd seen him last he looked like he'd never wanted to race again.
I always thought sour was different to being in pain. Having worked with a number of racing pacers I always felt they became sour when they were bored of their work/the monotony/minor pain made their work uncomfortable. I suppose it's different for each horse and in each person's perception.
We've worked hard to get him to enjoy his work again, which he does. He's still anti-social in terms of handling but once he's in his harness he's as happy as Larry doing his work. He seems happy at the races and has even managed to win a race for me. The remainder of his original behaviour appears to be his personality. The moment I realised we'd turned him around was when a friend, who had seen him at the sale I bought him at, commented on some photos of him working on Facebook telling me how lovely it was to see the horse enjoying his work because when she'd seen him last he looked like he'd never wanted to race again.
I always thought sour was different to being in pain. Having worked with a number of racing pacers I always felt they became sour when they were bored of their work/the monotony/minor pain made their work uncomfortable. I suppose it's different for each horse and in each person's perception.
Wagtail
Horse servant
Glad to hear you have turned your boy around. Nothing worse than having to work a horse that doesn't enjoy its work.
Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
You are not letting the owner down, she is letting the horse down by not listening to what the poor thing is trying desperately to tell any-one who will listen.
That description screams 'pain reaction' to me. Has anything been done to investigate/treat possible hindgut ulcers?
That description screams 'pain reaction' to me. Has anything been done to investigate/treat possible hindgut ulcers?
Wagtail
Horse servant
Thank you. It makes me feel better that others think the same way as me. I felt so depressed about it and was beginning to doubt my own instincts and thinking I am just such a negative person. Everyone else is telling the owner what she wants to hear.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
There's no way I would ride a horse like this for money it's against everything I believe .
Let the owner ride it if she won't then let her pay another to do it .
This sort of crap is what sucks the life out of people making their money from horses wagtail I know you say you like this lady but if she's so keen on her nappy refusing to go forward flipping over backwards horse to be ridden she should do so herself .
You are making a rod for your own back with this sort of thing .
You run a small livery yard the worse that can happen is that she will move , fine you will find another livery to fill the spot.
You have to get a grip in these small life style businesses or they kill the enjoyment of the thing you set them up to do , forgive my bluntness please .
Let the owner ride it if she won't then let her pay another to do it .
This sort of crap is what sucks the life out of people making their money from horses wagtail I know you say you like this lady but if she's so keen on her nappy refusing to go forward flipping over backwards horse to be ridden she should do so herself .
You are making a rod for your own back with this sort of thing .
You run a small livery yard the worse that can happen is that she will move , fine you will find another livery to fill the spot.
You have to get a grip in these small life style businesses or they kill the enjoyment of the thing you set them up to do , forgive my bluntness please .
Wagtail
Horse servant
No, we have stopped the omeprazole but even though the physio felt she may have hind gut ulcers, she didn't think that is why she flipped over. She thinks she is just trying to get out of working.
Wagtail
Horse servant
Thanks. I appreciate your bluntness. You are right, I am sitting here feeling totally depressed about the whole thing. I have told her I won't be riding the mare and she is being completely understanding about it. She really is a lovely person and would not be riding the horse herself if she did not truly believe she was pain free. I just feel like the bringer of bad news, that's all. She is very willing to ride the horse herself. I have told her I will support her from the ground but that as I believe the horse is in pain, I will not ride her myself. Normally, I school her before she rides so as to get her working through nicely first. The mare is big and powerful and her owner very small and light, so I have always done half the riding for her when I give her a lesson, and now I feel as though I am letting her down.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
You must not let yourself down that's the main thing .
It's very hard with these wrong horses that defy efforts to find out why they behave as they do .
I owned one in particular quickly we found she had terrible ulcers we treated scoped again they where gone .
A year later which had mainly been spent dragging the horse round various health care professionals she was scoped again the ulcers where worse .
Pain gives horses ulcers if you treat the ulcers and they still have pain the ulcers come back .
At this point with the horse becoming increasingly unpredictable MrGS pointed out that I was approaching 10k spent in my quest to find answers I was miserable she was miserable mr GS was cross because I was miserable I woke up smelt the coffee PTS the relief was amazing .
I still can't think of that horse without upset .
It's the owners horse, care for the horse make her time nice ,do your job well but step back and leave the owner more to it .
You'll go bonkers if you involve yourself to much in everybody else's disasters .
It's very hard with these wrong horses that defy efforts to find out why they behave as they do .
I owned one in particular quickly we found she had terrible ulcers we treated scoped again they where gone .
A year later which had mainly been spent dragging the horse round various health care professionals she was scoped again the ulcers where worse .
Pain gives horses ulcers if you treat the ulcers and they still have pain the ulcers come back .
At this point with the horse becoming increasingly unpredictable MrGS pointed out that I was approaching 10k spent in my quest to find answers I was miserable she was miserable mr GS was cross because I was miserable I woke up smelt the coffee PTS the relief was amazing .
I still can't think of that horse without upset .
It's the owners horse, care for the horse make her time nice ,do your job well but step back and leave the owner more to it .
You'll go bonkers if you involve yourself to much in everybody else's disasters .
Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
My turn to be blunt now.
I agree with Goldenstar but am going to go further and say that actually, if you allow this woman to get on the horse for a lesson/schooling session with you 'supporting' her on the ground you will be letting both her and the horse down. She absolutely must be made to realise that the horse is expressing its pain in the only way it can. She needs to get 2nd opinions from professionals, or at the very least take steps to explore the possibility of hind-gut ulcers, which have already been suggested to her.
If you are prepared to support her from the ground while she rides the horse, someone could tell her that the reason you won't ride is that you are frightened of being thrown off. The only way to make your point is to have nothing to do with the horse being ridden, imho.
I suggest that you show her this thread. Sometimes owners need to take a step back in order to see what is obvious to others.
I agree with Goldenstar but am going to go further and say that actually, if you allow this woman to get on the horse for a lesson/schooling session with you 'supporting' her on the ground you will be letting both her and the horse down. She absolutely must be made to realise that the horse is expressing its pain in the only way it can. She needs to get 2nd opinions from professionals, or at the very least take steps to explore the possibility of hind-gut ulcers, which have already been suggested to her.
If you are prepared to support her from the ground while she rides the horse, someone could tell her that the reason you won't ride is that you are frightened of being thrown off. The only way to make your point is to have nothing to do with the horse being ridden, imho.
I suggest that you show her this thread. Sometimes owners need to take a step back in order to see what is obvious to others.
Wagtail
Horse servant
Ha, I think that I'm already a bit bonkers. :biggrin3:
I hear what you are saying, but I am going to have a proper chat with the owner later and explain exactly why I think she is in pain. However, I have to accept that there is a small possibility that I am wrong and everyone else dealing with this mare is right, hence the mental conflict. I think as long as I make my feelings known, then I still feel I can support her from the ground. I expect I will probably be viewed as just being too scared to get on the mare. But I don't care about that. I will be backing my filly next summer and will be the first person on her. I just can't wait. Just hope she's big enough by then!