Sour Horse?

[bakewell]

Just because you can't pinpoint the pain with current diagnostics doesn't mean it's non-existent. Look at how many "naughty" horses or buckers we knew when younger that make us feel a bit shamefaced realising now that they were in pain.

I also think there's a point at which you've been consistent, patient, stubborn etc and it's not a case of "not backing down" (say in the case of a bad loader)... that the horse is not suitable for the job you want it to do. I would consider doing the first stages of breaking the horse to harness, long lining etc, to see if the behaviour persists in a different job, it's a bit easier for some back/ gut/ ovary problems. It's also a relief for the horse to be able to comply with your wishes if there's a genuine reason for stopping them in their current job.

Tbh given the undermining of your valid feelings towards the horse I'd say continuing isn't doing you good as a horsewoman (/person). Tuning into your feelings and attempting to understand a completely different species is quite a rare skill, you need to try and retain that.

 

[ester]

What with this and the bolting chap you were/should have been riding I'm a bit worried you might break at something Wagtail. If she wants to pay the pro rider - and they are happy to then she can carry on but I wouldn't be facilitating her working the mare at all.

 

[Wagtail]

Just because you can't pinpoint the pain with current diagnostics doesn't mean it's non-existent. Look at how many "naughty" horses or buckers we knew when younger that make us feel a bit shamefaced realising now that they were in pain.

I also think there's a point at which you've been consistent, patient, stubborn etc and it's not a case of "not backing down" (say in the case of a bad loader)... that the horse is not suitable for the job you want it to do. I would consider doing the first stages of breaking the horse to harness, long lining etc, to see if the behaviour persists in a different job, it's a bit easier for some back/ gut/ ovary problems. It's also a relief for the horse to be able to comply with your wishes if there's a genuine reason for stopping them in their current job.

Tbh given the undermining of your valid feelings towards the horse I'd say continuing isn't doing you good as a horsewoman (/person). Tuning into your feelings and attempting to understand a completely different species is quite a rare skill, you need to try and retain that.

You are right. Every time I have listened to my gut instinct with horses, I have not been wrong.

 

[Wagtail]

What with this and the bolting chap you were/should have been riding I'm a bit worried you might break at something Wagtail. If she wants to pay the pro rider - and they are happy to then she can carry on but I wouldn't be facilitating her working the mare at all.

I agree. I'm going to have a long chat with her about it. If she were my horse, I'd send her to Donna Blinman. It wouldn't break the bank and if there's anything to find, she'll find it.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I agree. I'm going to have a long chat with her about it. If she were my horse, I'd send her to Donna Blinman. It wouldn't break the bank and if there's anything to find, she'll find it.

I have only just caught up with this. I hope the owner listens to you, perhaps if you are offering her a way forward, rather than just saying 'I think they're all wrong', she will take heed. Good luck!

 

[Wagtail]

I have only just caught up with this. I hope the owner listens to you, perhaps if you are offering her a way forward, rather than just saying 'I think they're all wrong', she will take heed. Good luck!

Sadly not. She is 100% certain the mare is 'having her on' and the reason she flipped over was a 'flight reaction' due to not wanting to go into the scary corner. It is true she has always spooked in that corner. However when she did it she had been ridden for 30 minutes and gone past the corner probably 40 times or more. I was watching, but then went back in the house at the time when the incident happened so cannot comment, other than to say the time she did it with me was in exactly the same spot, but we npow know she had very painful ulcers at the time. The owner said she is not worried she will do it with her because she won't push her. Both times she did it was when she was being ridden firmly between hand and leg and did not want to go into the corner. She could not shy due to strong riding so she went up. However, my view is that pain will make a horse more reactive than they normally are. And on the off chance I am wrong (the mare went okayish for her owner yesterday - just really hard work to go forwards), then do I really want to be riding a horse that may react like that if I need to get firm with her? No thanks.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

What a pity, poor horse.

I wonder what it will take the horse to do before the owner finally does listen. I have to say, I wouldn't be using that physio, I feel that she isn't qualified to say that the horse isn't in pain, just that its musculo/skeletal system shouldn't be causing any pain. How the heck can she see into the hroses's digestive system.

I must admit that feel strongly that owners/riders should listen to their horses, as I know that in the past, if I had heard sooner what particular horses were saying, I would have a saved a great deal of trouble (and injury!).

 

[ihatework]

You cannot 'save' every horse unfortunately. There is a tricky balance to be had being a professional in the equine industry.

I do find it slightly uncomfortable that you write so freely about your clients and their horses on here. I wouldn't be massively happy if my YO did similar.

About 18 months ago I was really impressed with how my YO dealt with a situation on our yard. YO is a bit of a soft touch and really does go extra mile for liveries & horses. Our yard at the time wasnt full and finances were tight.
YO had a horse on full livery that was showing pain behaviour. YO tried to talk to owners but they weren't having it. So YO apologised to them but said she could no longer support the horse being ridden - for both the horses sake and the staff safety. She would be withdrawing from offering full livery but would offer part livery. The owner ended up moving on as they needed their horse ridden.

I suggest you adopt a similar stance to the above

 

[Wagtail]

You know what, Ihatework, you are absolutely right. I viewed this place as an anonymous place to get advice on horse based problems, but maybe it should not apply to Yard Owners. Though I don't know where else I could get such a good range of valuable and insightful advice.

 

[pip6]

Stand by your beliefs, the mare needs someone to listen to her. Owner can't honestly dote on her that much or would listen to every opinion and only be interested in solving the problem humanely. If my horse threw a rear in out of character, I'd be asking why and not automatically put it down to hormones.

 

[Wagtail]

Stand by your beliefs, the mare needs someone to listen to her. Owner can't honestly dote on her that much or would listen to every opinion and only be interested in solving the problem humanely. If my horse threw a rear in out of character, I'd be asking why and not automatically put it down to hormones.

Thanks, Pip6. It does seem to be unanimous on here that there must be something wrong with her.

 

[9tails]

This horse flipped over while being ridden, is quite clearly not right and you're still planning to ride her? YO or not, I don't care how much money you're being paid or how much the owner want the horse "ridden through it", I'd tell them to use the money more wisely on diagnosing the horse. Not with a horse whisperer but with xrays.

 

[pip6]

We had a horse with ks. Advice from our vet was turn out 24/7, standing in a stable will aggrevate it. So we did, horse, tb, loved living out, really helped her. Also if you set up a track, could you do a ride/lead to keep horse moving without any additional weight on her? I know you said she doesn't have ks, but if the processes are close, maybe treat her as though she has.

Sign with our mare (did it to lady we got her from knowing about her back) was when asked to do lateral work (was eventer) she threw a wobbly, was absolutely fine otherwise in flat work. Also, when sj course had last 2-3 jumps down as jumps came too quickly for her to be able to recover between them as she did xc. Sound familliar?

 

[9tails]

I've read the rest now, good for you sticking to your guns and refusing to ride.

 

[horselover88]

My horse was sour when I got her. She was an ex competition horse, but had nothing about her. She could jump anything put in front of her but was uninterested in everything, dull to ride, generally grouchy, not naughty, but just was awkward in every way. New diet, new routine, plenty of turn out and tlc, and she sparkles now! She still doesn't agree that she should have to always work in an outline, but her varied workload and plenty of love means she loves people, seems pleased to work, and loves to be out hacking or jumping. She also adores her field buddies, who she previously use to ignore and just hang in the corner.

I really feel for this poor horse you describe. I cannot believe professionals are not investigating the matter further, even though it flipped with a pro on top! Owner is clearly in the 'ignorance is bliss' phase. If you feel it in your heart, DO NOT get on this horse and politely explain to the owner why. Maybe no one has reacted to her in such a way, and it may make her think or motivate her to take the right course of action.

 

[Illusion100]

Horses that are 'getting a bit stroppy' don't tend to flip over, nor do they tend to work well then suddenly pull the (imo) most dangerous stunt possible. It doesn't sound like a tantrum, most horses having a tantrum still have their sense of self-preservation and (imo) flipping over means that has gone out the window. I think you are absolutely right to be concerned about this mare.

 

[abb123]

I bought a horse that had been described as sour. I bought her cheaply as a companion/project so gave her plenty of time off and tried gentle hacking. After an initial improvement, she got progressively worse. Point blank refused to hack out and would get very upset in the school. Refused to move, wouldn't canter at all. Would crab side ways and would threaten to rear.

Plenty of people told me that it was just her character. That she just needed to get used to a stronger rider (her last rider was 4 ft nothing and she is a big 16.2). My instructor at the time was adamant it was behavioural and I needed to rider through it.

Eventually she came down with colic and had to have surgery. She had a type of colic where the intestine was going in and out of a pocket in her gut causing intermittent colic and soreness. This is why it never showed up when we had back/saddle/teeth/vet checks to investigate her behaviour.

It has taken about 4 years to get her back to enjoying her work. I can now tack up with her free in the stable with no biting or tail swishing and she actually lowers her head to have her bridle put on. I used to have to cross tie her up. I can ride her in the school without her instantly sweating up and crab-napping. She's just had almost a year of very light work (due to my lack of time and facilities) and has just come back into work now. It is the first time I have felt like I have a happy, normal horse that I can walk, trot and canter on both reins normally in a school. She still does not hack out at all though.

I did have to ride her through some of the issues as they do remember pain. I changed instructors though to one I completely trust and she helped to gently show her that it doesn't hurt anymore and build up good habits instead.

I think it can be hard to know whether it is still painful or she is acting out in the expectation of pain. In my case I could see steady improvement in her ridden work and when tacking up which always made me feel more confident.

 

[Wagtail]

I have to explain that this owner really does love the horse. She must have spent around £15k on investigations and treatments for various disorders, trying to get to the bottom of her behaviour. I think she has just reached the end of her tether and it is much more emotionally comfortable to believe those who tell her there is nothing wrong with the horse. I really do feel for her and I really like her as a person.

However, the horse is either in pain, or for some reason hates being ridden into her scary corner so much that she would throw herself over. Either way, it is not a horse I want to ride.

 

[Wagtail]

I bought a horse that had been described as sour. I bought her cheaply as a companion/project so gave her plenty of time off and tried gentle hacking. After an initial improvement, she got progressively worse. Point blank refused to hack out and would get very upset in the school. Refused to move, wouldn't canter at all. Would crab side ways and would threaten to rear.

Plenty of people told me that it was just her character. That she just needed to get used to a stronger rider (her last rider was 4 ft nothing and she is a big 16.2). My instructor at the time was adamant it was behavioural and I needed to rider through it.

Eventually she came down with colic and had to have surgery. She had a type of colic where the intestine was going in and out of a pocket in her gut causing intermittent colic and soreness. This is why it never showed up when we had back/saddle/teeth/vet checks to investigate her behaviour.

It has taken about 4 years to get her back to enjoying her work. I can now tack up with her free in the stable with no biting or tail swishing and she actually lowers her head to have her bridle put on. I used to have to cross tie her up. I can ride her in the school without her instantly sweating up and crab-napping. She's just had almost a year of very light work (due to my lack of time and facilities) and has just come back into work now. It is the first time I have felt like I have a happy, normal horse that I can walk, trot and canter on both reins normally in a school. She still does not hack out at all though.

I did have to ride her through some of the issues as they do remember pain. I changed instructors though to one I completely trust and she helped to gently show her that it doesn't hurt anymore and build up good habits instead.

I think it can be hard to know whether it is still painful or she is acting out in the expectation of pain. In my case I could see steady improvement in her ridden work and when tacking up which always made me feel more confident.

I am so pleased that you got to the bottom of your horse's problems. I firmly believe that there is a physical reason why horses behave badly in 99% of cases. I dread to think how many horses are stoically working through pain at this moment. Some horses really do try for you despite being in a great deal of pain, others will complain at the slightest twinge.

 

[oldie48]

I've recently sold a horse like this. I bought him as a dressage schoolmaster and mistook his lack of forwardness as a mixture of my inexperience and him being very safe. Although he taught me a lot in the five years I had him, it was clear he didn't enjoy dressage anymore. I managed to find him a good hacking home and bought myself a horse that enjoys dressage. I am much happier and I'm sure my old horse is too. Sometimes it's difficult to accept what is obvious, we'd have both been happier if I'd moved him on a lot sooner than I did, but I found it difficult to admit that we wanted different things. A bit like staying in a marriage too long trying to make it work!!

I knew a school sour horse. He was bright, relaxed and forward on a hack and like he had his handbrake on in the school, plus tense and prone to napping at the gate. It was pretty obvious in his case.

 

[horselover88]

I have to explain that this owner really does love the horse. She must have spent around £15k on investigations and treatments for various disorders, trying to get to the bottom of her behaviour. I think she has just reached the end of her tether and it is much more emotionally comfortable to believe those who tell her there is nothing wrong with the horse. I really do feel for her and I really like her as a person.
However, the horse is either in pain, or for some reason hates being ridden into her scary corner so much that she would throw herself over. Either way, it is not a horse I want to ride.

Throwing money at a situation does not always equate to love. Sure is helps with big vets bills but THAT much and still no improvement? I am sure she is a nice person as you say, but she clearly has more money than sense if she cannot take basic advice and evidence from her horse that there is something not right. To me a horse that is pulling a fast one, will usually behave or buckle down AFTER its temper tantrum, especially with an experienced rider who can cope with the spooking and silliness. A horse going over backwards after 30 minutes of schooling, rings alarm bells.

Maybe she needs a gentle nudge and advice from a friend/yo/experienced horse person who is not making money from the situation?

 

[hihosilver]

I wouldn't be riding this horse why on earth would you? Turn her away for a year and let her be a horse. Not worth risking you or her.