Sourcing low level/grassroots type eventer

[Bernster]

I was talking to a friend about that unicorn of a horse that is a safe, straightforward grassroots eventing schoolmaster. Haha, Hahaha I hear you say. Where are these paragons of virtue to be found/sourced (other than in your dreams!) and what price tag do they fetch?

I’m not talking about a talented youngster who has the potential (there are loads of these but they all seem pretty untested in competiton), or about something that’s good enough to move up the grades. it doesn’t need to go much above 90 really, which I realise most horses can do. But it would need to do this with an amateur rider, and actually be experienced at that level. So many adverts for eventers don’t seem to be for a horse who is actually established or even has much experience at whatever level it is.

I appreciate that a lot of horses should be able to get to this level (mine included) but the discussion we were having was about buying ones that had actually done it.

 

[BroadfordQueen]

If I were to sell my eventer, who fits your description- ridden by myself (very much an amateur!), decent record at BE100 (never had a xc fault), 9 year old, 16hh, I would advertise her for around the £12k region. She does however have scope to go novice, which is our plan after a couple more 100s, so maybe a bit more experienced than you're talking about.

I would initially advertise her via word of mouth, as I work in the equine industry so lots of contacts, and then try Horse Quest.

 

[sportsmansB]

They are like hens teeth.
The few opportunities which come along are rarely advertised. Maybe one without the gallop to go up the grades, but who has given their owner enough confidence to want to do so, so they sell to fund the slightly scopier / faster version? Or one that has done 100 with a junior who then wants to move up for teams or whatever and again needs to sell to fund that next purchase.
I'd say for a sound and happy one (no quirks) with a record at 100 under the age of 13 you're looking at £12-15k. Essentially you're paying for safety and rideability.

Problem is the horse who has made someone's dreams come true at grassroots level often has a home for life (where that is possible!)

Its possibly easier to get one from a pro which they have recognised won't go up the grades - but then they won't be used to rider nerves / being missed at a fence / going places on their own, etc...

 

[ihatework]

Okay, a few things to consider.
Amateur covers quite a wide range of riders.

You have the wealthy amateur that may or may not be a talented rider too. But what they do have is access to money to buy a good horse and more crucially they have access to good facilities and training (and to some extent time as well).

Then you have the more normal amateur who works and/or has kids other ties on time and resources. They keep their horses on a budget (which doesn’t mean on the cheap, but rather there is a limit on how much they can splash out on support).

Then there are expectations to consider. Does the rider expect to be competitive and if so how quickly. To that individual does competitive mean very regular high placings with Badminton grassroots in mind, or does it mean picking up a BE placing here and there? Do they want to be competitive pretty soon or will they put the work in?

All of the above influence the price of the horse (and that doesn’t even factor in vettings, size, flash breeding etc).

As for the price of horses ....

The rich amateur with aspirations (not necessarily realistic!) of being very competitive are willing to pay for the horse they perceive to be right to get them there. They are probably looking at horses starting at 20K and working upwards. 40K (for a pre novice horse!!!) is not unheard of for something flash, safe and clean on vetting. These horses are generally coming from pro producers and are often targeted at this market when it becomes apparent they are not an upper level horse. How successful these horses are once in amateur hands is largely driven by how good the amateur is - often the horses have had their hands (hoofs) held every step of the way and the wheels fall off a bit.

Personally, I would advise caution however rich someone is when buying an expensive pro produced horse.

For amateur 90/100 level you need a horse that enjoys the job, can think for itself and is happy to ‘take a joke’, I.e doesn’t fall apart if the rider has a miss or a wobble.

There are a whole variety of horses out there that fit ^^^^ that criteria in all shapes and sizes. In addition if those horses are in amateur homes already then the amateur isn’t in it to make a living and also probably doesn’t truly realise the price some horses sell for. This is good because not only will these horses be cheaper but they will also be more suitable.

Finding them is a bit trickier and obviously the bigger the budget you have the more choice you will have.

I would say you can find an amateur proven BE90 horse that will pick up placings here and there but isn’t really grassroots material for 6-10K, something a bit more consistently in the higher placings then 10-15k.

 

[Bernster]

Very much what i was thinking. I’d agree with these price ranges, perhaps more at the 15k and below as I suspect those mega expensive ones are shown as POA or are as you say on pro yards and may not get openly advertised.

They are certainly hens teeth too - I think you’re all right that they’re more likely to either not be making the higher grade (but if in pro hands query how they cope with amateurs) or are outgrown ones from kids/teens, or those moving up grades.

 

[Ambers Echo]

My friend recently sold basically that horse! Proven at BE90 but would not have the scope for higher. Safe and sane. Never had XC faults and always made the time but often had a pole or 2. Dressage in the high 20s. Placed top ten regularly but never higher than 4th. Hacked well. Easy to do in every way. Sold for 6.5K same day as ad went up so may have been under-priced.

 

[Bernster]

Yes she/he might have got a bit more but then I’d always factor in ease of selling and the home. Where did she advertise it?

If anyone knows of one of these btw, do tell (16h and under).

 

[Michen]

It's also the fact that those competing at BE90/100 often want other things too, to do a bit of hunting, beach rides, fun rides, go away on camps and know it will behave, hack out alone and just be a general all rounder.

I do think that being a good hunter, on top of an easy to ride around a 80/90/100 horse will add a huge amount more value.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Where did she advertise it?

Just on FB.

 

[spacefaer]

Friend of mine has one of these. He's given her soooo much confidence from being nervous at 60cm to jumping 1.10 over the winter show jump training. He's easy to take to competitions by himself and is generally an allround nice guy.
A pro would never be interested in him as he would never be fast enough - he's about to go 100, and has the jump to go at least Novice, but doesn't have that 5th gear to make the times.

However, like most amateurs, real life has to intrude sometimes, and while in a perfect world, he would never be sold (as posters have said above) if her new business venture doesn't take off, he will have to be sold as finances will dictate it.

The true grassroots horse is worth its weight in gold - they have to be adaptable, forgiving and able to just get on with life!

 

[Red-1]

I was astonished when Charlie horse was not snapped up at 8K. He was competitive at BE 100 but did not enjoy Novice, but he was a nice chap and would hack with even a raw, nervous novice rider aboard (I am including a rider with just 4 weeks in the saddle - ever- sent off on their own, on the roads, for a nice ride out!).

Charlie did everything in his own economical way, but still got some BD points, won a BS Newcomers and did Int teamchase as well as hunt. It was a rare day he did not win a numnah at BE100. He was huge fun.

He did have mild sweetitch and was rising 10.

When no one else saw his value we kept him! He taught OH to ride, was a nanny for my new horse, could be left for weeks then pulled out of the stable to do...whatever.

I would have accepted 8K to a super home, but either people wanted to pay less or they were not a super home. Horses like that are like gold dust, and he was easy to keep and would always have a job with us. I think we advertised at 8.5K and would have accepted 8. I am still astonished that people did not see the value in him, but was also glad as we kept hold of him and OH learned to canter, jump, XC and do dressage (placed unaff), pleasure rides, etc etc etc.

 

[splashgirl45]

as i love window shopping i was curious to see if i could find something that would fit the bill for less money. found one on horsemart,16 hands, 14 yrs old chestnut gelding rider wants to move up to novice and horse not happy £4500, will make a good schoolmaster for be80 and 90 and good for riding club level, good to hack alone and in company.....

 

[Bernster]

SG I can’t access horsemart on my iPad so never look there. Suspect that is lowish but presumably reflects his age and the worry that he won’t have many more competitive years left?

Red he sounds like a star!

SF sounds fab!

 

[splashgirl45]

he looked like a nice type and 14 isnt that oldm i think if you could look at a teenagers you may find something which is not too expensive. if money is no object they are out there but in the real world of most of us we have to look at the lower prices....it seems that the better quality and therefore more expensive horses are on horsequest and the lower priced ones on horsemart, preloved,pets4homes. also if you are looking specifically at eventers they will be more but a good all rounder should do a 90 be with no problems so do you need an established eventer?

 

[Bernster]

For an eventing schoolmaster I would say it needs to be one that knows the job to some degree - not necessarily affiliated but I do think there’s an important difference between a horse that has the potential v one that’s been and done it (for the inexperienced rider at least).

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Most National Hunt racehorses would do that and be out competing in a month. One I ride at work could do it tomorrow instead he has a race on Thursday and then hopefully a few morw years let racing before he retires.

 

[splashgirl45]

For an eventing schoolmaster I would say it needs to be one that knows the job to some degree - not necessarily affiliated but I do think there’s an important difference between a horse that has the potential v one that’s been and done it (for the inexperienced rider at least).

if a rider is that inexperienced that they struggle to take a normal horse round an 80 be course then i would think they need to have more lessons. even if a horse is a schoolmaster the rider should be competent enough to push the right buttons

 

[Bernster]

if a rider is that inexperienced that they struggle to take a normal horse round an 80 be course then i would think they need to have more lessons. even if a horse is a schoolmaster the rider should be competent enough to push the right buttons

Been thinking about this. So ofc, if someone isn’t capable of jumping say 80/90 (or whatever comp level) then no amount of horse power is going to fix that. But I don’t think it’s inappropriate to want to buy a horse thats capable and doing the job you want, even if the rider hasn’t done that yet. Otherwise that means that both horse and rider would be doing it for their first time, both green, and by that logic riders shouldn’t buy horses who are competing above the rider’s current level. But I suspect that’s not what you meant?

 

[be positive]

if a rider is that inexperienced that they struggle to take a normal horse round an 80 be course then i would think they need to have more lessons. even if a horse is a schoolmaster the rider should be competent enough to push the right buttons

I would assume that anyone buying a schoolmaster would still be having regular lessons in order to improve generally, often a schoolmaster type will be more tricky to ride than a greener horse that is less well established and has less opinions on where the correct buttons are.
I have no idea what defines a 'normal' horse, in my experience every horse is different and part of developing riding skills is to be able to adapt your riding slightly to ride many different types, something that only comes with experience and having the chance to ride a well educated horse so the rider can develop a feel for correct work.

 

[paddi22]

For 90s level i don't understand the point of getting a schoolmaster? If someone's base level of nerves or inexperience is too low to do a 90s, then wouldn't it be better to step back and gain their confidence and skills at lower levels, not just skip a few steps?

The worst riders you see going around events are the ones who got schoolmasters at early levels.

You can spot them a mile off, they always look wobbly and you can tell they are just passengers, not really 'riding'. They all ride the same way, they kind of point and sit. They never learn to ride or react to every stride of movement, because they know 99% of the time the horse will do it. It makes them very weak innefficent riders (that's just my own opinion). A lot never develope the instinctive reactions to save themselves or get themselves or the horse out of trouble when needed. You can tell they never had to learn how to give a horse confidence over a jump, or really ride towards it with meaning because they KNOW they have to get it over. They passenger instead.

I can understand why someone would want a horse to give them confidence xc, but it's detrimental in the long run. They would be better off buying any horse nice horse with a good attitude, and just starting at pre novice hunter trials and clinics and climbing their way up. I don't get this trend of wanting horses to fix riders weaknesses. People should graft, take the time and lessons and become a rider that CAN take any horse around a 90s course.

We get rescues and horses from the pound in to retrain, and ALL can do a 90s event. And when the work is put in on clinics and hunter trails during traing, they ALL become fairly schoolmastery. They just don't look like 'eventers'. The one below is a 13hh cob taken around a tough 90s xc course by a child. It flew around. It does fab dressage, jumps like a sj-er and is a machine xc. But people have some weird ideas of what 'eventer's' need to be. And riders do to. the joy in eventing is learnign the skills, not just skipping steps so you have an easy ride around an xc course.

 

[paddi22]

having the chance to ride a well educated horse so the rider can develop a feel for correct work.

just as a debating point, (im not posting in general about Op cause i have no idea of their situation, just discussing generally).

I think schoolmasters are handy for other disciplines, but i think in xc work they nearly go against the rider. For dressage you want a feel of when it goes 'right', for xc you nearly need to learn by feeling the 'wrong'. By having to learn what it feels like when a horse downs tools at a ditch, or when it starts to back off a few strides out and you have to dig seed and encourage them over. Or if they stumble and make a dodgy stride, you have to have the instinct to release and let them sort it out. Those are skills learnt over time at lower levels. You don't develope them by riding schoolmasters

You have to develop instinctive reactions, and you develop them by getting your own milage and making mistakes at lower levels. The best xc riders are guaranteed never to have learn on schoolmasters, they spent years taking average/green ponies and horses around hunter trials. A smooth sea never made a sailor, and it def never made a good cross country rider.

 

[splashgirl45]

Been thinking about this. So ofc, if someone isn’t capable of jumping say 80/90 (or whatever comp level) then no amount of horse power is going to fix that. But I don’t think it’s inappropriate to want to buy a horse thats capable and doing the job you want, even if the rider hasn’t done that yet. Otherwise that means that both horse and rider would be doing it for their first time, both green, and by that logic riders shouldn’t buy horses who are competing above the rider’s current level. But I suspect that’s not what you meant?

what i mean is if someone is that incapable of jumping be80 then they should be having lessons and not try to learn while coasting around on a schoolmaster. .i question the need for a schoolmaster to go around be80 as i feel that most horses can ,with the right training and temperament , get round the course. may not be competitive but its much more satisfying than just sitting and pointing. so called schoolmasters are expensive (rightly so) but how much do you really learn... it seems that everyone now wants an easy time and want to succeed at all costs...i only competed at riding club level at 80 and 90 and always had to train my own very ordinary horse and therefore was happy to get round and if i got a place that was the icing on the cake and all my own work...

 

[Michen]

For 90s level i don't understand the point of getting a schoolmaster? If someone's base level of nerves or inexperience is too low to do a 90s, then wouldn't it be better to step back and gain their confidence and skills at lower levels, not just skip a few steps?

The worst riders you see going around events are the ones who got schoolmasters at early levels.

You can spot them a mile off, they always look wobbly and you can tell they are just passengers, not really 'riding'. They all ride the same way, they kind of point and sit. They never learn to ride or react to every stride of movement, because they know 99% of the time the horse will do it. It makes them very weak innefficent riders (that's just my own opinion). A lot never develope the instinctive reactions to save themselves or get themselves or the horse out of trouble when needed. You can tell they never had to learn how to give a horse confidence over a jump, or really ride towards it with meaning because they KNOW they have to get it over. They passenger instead.

I can understand why someone would want a horse to give them confidence xc, but it's detrimental in the long run. They would be better off buying any horse nice horse with a good attitude, and just starting at pre novice hunter trials and clinics and climbing their way up. I don't get this trend of wanting horses to fix riders weaknesses. People should graft, take the time and lessons and become a rider that CAN take any horse around a 90s course.

We get rescues and horses from the pound in to retrain, and ALL can do a 90s event. And when the work is put in on clinics and hunter trails during traing, they ALL become fairly schoolmastery. They just don't look like 'eventers'. The one below is a 13hh cob taken around a tough 90s xc course by a child. It flew around. It does fab dressage, jumps like a sj-er and is a machine xc. But people have some weird ideas of what 'eventer's' need to be. And riders do to. the joy in eventing is learnign the skills, not just skipping steps so you have an easy ride around an xc course.

Hmmm, I see your point. But I’m a very, very nervous jumper... I paid for Boggle to be educated because I knew I couldn’t do it myself if he was wobbly and green. I’ve seen horses that have been green with riders not experienced enough to stop a nap/spin/spook at a jump become serial stoppers because they were never correctly educated from an early age and have “learned” to do it.

I guess there are different levels. Boggle will always do his utmost to jump for me, never running out or stopping. I need that in a horse to give me confidence, but that doesn’t mean I don’t have to help sometimes when we are wrong. That said, usually it’s better I just sit there and shut up because “usually” he is cleverer than me at working stuff out

 

[Auslander]

I believe that there is an argument for less experienced riders to spend some time learning the ropes on a more established horse, who can take them round a decent course without issues. Sure, they aren't going to learn how to react to, and deal with problems on a horse who eats up a 90, and doesn't really need the rider to do anything but steer - but what a horse like that will do is give the rider confidence over bigger fences, and when faced with more complex questions. A rider who is lacking in confidence/experience at the higher levels is not going to get braver riding a horse which needs it's hand held too. This is why I think leasing is a great thing - a couple of years on a horse that knows the job equips a rider with the tools to get on a less confident horse, and be able to say "Ok Buddy, this is what we do".
I learned the ropes cross country on a proper point and shoot job. He did everything his way, and completely ignored me for the first 6 months. Once I had 6 months of being taken round under my belt, I was confident enough to have a few words with him about who was in charge, and make some of the decisions about where we were going, and how fast! That did me more favours than jumping sticky ones round courses that neither of us were confident about.

 

[paddi22]

Hmmm, I see your point. But I’m a very, very nervous jumper... I paid for Boggle to be educated because I knew I couldn’t do it myself if he was wobbly and green. I’ve seen horses that have been green with riders not experienced enough to stop a nap/spin/spook at a jump become serial stoppers because they were never correctly educated from an early age and have “learned” to do it.

thats a really good point!

 

[Bernster]

I think that's more what I had in mind. It seems odd to think the only effective way, or the recommended way, is for green horses and green riders to learn together. I don't see anything 'wrong' with taking the horse out of the equation in a sense, and letting the rider learn the ropes.