Spaniel aggression to other dogs

[Suelin]

A few pointers please people.

1. Can anyone recommend a good sympathetic dog trainer in the Wellingborough area please.

2. Springer bitch of indeterminate age (somewhere between 2 & 5) Unsocialised with other dogs. Very friendly and happy with people. Couple in their 80's. I didn't want them to have another dog but they went ahead anyway and she is a sweetie until another dog comes into the picture and she appears to mean it. Our lab had his lip snapped at and the skin broken today. We think she is unspayed and this is due to be addressed next week. Folks have only had her for 2 weeks and vet's suggestion was to give her a few weeks to settle before spaying. I went out and bought the dog a muzzle so that mother could walk her with a bit more confidence until the main issue is sorted.

How would anyone else deal with this kind of problem. My first reaction was to send her back whence she came. If I had her I would persevere but I am not yet 84/86 as they are. Mother can't do it she says. I've got her to agree to taking her to training to try to get her sorted out.

Any good tips would be welcomed please from folk used to dealing with all sorts of dogs with troubles. Before anyone asks there are no pain/health issues in any way. Vet has given her a clean bill of health. She goes for any dog/bitch without provocation and stops as soon as she's made her point but then comes back for another go at the next meeting. 3 of our dogs were most upset at her attitude as they are very sweet, our bigger whippet though marked her card for her and it concerns me that a full scale fight could be the result. Fortunately we were right there and were able to stop it escalating into something worse. All of our dogs are neutered, well socialised happy people, we would like to be able to include her but she is making it difficult just now.

Many thanks for you thoughts.

 

[Dobiegirl]

If she was mine or one of my foster dogs I would put a choke chain on her and the minute she looked at another dog I would check her and give a very strong leave it command and walk on by, I would keep this up until she got the message. I realise that everyone cant do this so in the mean time I would keep her muzzled and on a lead so she dosnt keep behaving this way which will only re-inforce it and make it more difficult to correct. A good no nonsense trainer is called for I think but everyone needs to be on board and does what the trainer suggests.

 

[Suelin]

Thankyou Dobiegirl, that is precisely what I would do with her. Both the folks are going to the trainer and hopefully will take everything on board. I'm glad that somebody else thinks the same way that I do in this case. I wish they hadn't got her really, they are not that fit (few are at their age) and really need to be on her case a bit more.

 

[gunnergundog]

Unless they have got a large area of securely fenced land of their own to exercise the dog in I would try to persuade them to return the animal. It will take a long time and a lot of consistant training for any behaviour remodification to take effect. A pinger of the age you mention needs to burn off excess energy by free running; if they are going to do this in public it is an accident waiting to happen and could do damage (psychological, if not physical) to other peoples dogs, even if muzzled if it behaves as you describe.

I am soooo not ageist as not that much younger myself, but as we age our body language, mobility and speed of movement changes.......all of these influence how we communicate with our dogs and I would suggest that for a dog such as you describe it would be easier for it to be managed by someone who is not hampered by the encumbrances of age.

I hope that you post to say tbat the dog has been suitably rehomed or alternatively that in six months time your couple have proved me wrong!! That would certainly give me the confidence to import a certain dog from Germany that I'm contemplating, but which I think I'm about twenty years too old for.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Oh boy, sounds exactly like mine. Months of training and socialisation and he's still awful with dogs he doesn't know. He's ok with dogs he's met under controlled conditions but will, like your parents' new one, attack for no reason other than to say he's boss.

Mine being a springer, he has been trained by a gun dog trainer and taught to focus on retrieving/finding dummies etc. He has a very high prey drive so is fab for this kind of work. If you can organise a trainer and get her focused, fab, but it makes me very nervous to see other dogs running near mine. He won't go for them but sometimes you can't stop a bouncy dog coming up to yours. Sometimes, we have to lift ours up to avoid a massive fight.

I'm not sure this dog is at all suitable for your parents. We've found ours so draining. We've found the trick with ours, but it's taken three different trainers til we found the right one and it's still not 100% safe so we often find fairly isolated spots for walks. Not ideal.

 

[Suelin]

I would like them to return her as well. They just aren't young enough for this anymore. However mother feels that she would be letting the dog down by doing that, and believe me, mother has attitude!! That said this dog will curtail their lifestyle seriously. Previous dogs they have had have always gone everywhere with them and both my brother and myself have dogs, so even family visits are going to be difficult for them.

Thank You all for your valuable input here. We are all on the same page. I suspect that they will make the right decision for themselves in short order. If they'd only waited another few days I found an ideal KC spaniel, however as I have said, mother has attitude!!! I will keep you posted and hopefully report a favourable outcome for all.

 

[thewonderhorse]

My GSD lad is like this. He is fine with dogs he knows (Very few and its indifference rather than liking them) but will go for dogs he doesn't.

Luckily I have my own fields and yard so we walk and play but it means a nightmare when lead walking and he hasn't improved in the 3 or so years I have had him, (he is now 7) much as I have tried.

He is, as cinnamontoast says, tiring, as I cant just nip out with him to a town as he kicks off so badly I would be worried that he would be reported as being dangerous.

Just to add, he has never bitten, he is just in the other dogs face barking and snarling and it is very difficult to get him to snap out of it when he is in that frame of mind.

Just to add, a choker doesn't work on him at all. He has a halti and a harness as well but to be honest we stick to our own fields now as I am 5 months pregnant and cant cope with a fight with a very big GSD.

 

[AmyMay]

What is the dogs history?

 

[Suelin]

She's a rescue Amymay, we are led to believe that she was kept in a shed and used as a puppy machine. Very sad for the dog but unfortunately the "rescue" didn't look into the placement with my folks which makes me a bit suspicious about the whole story. She's a lovely dog with people but a witch with other dogs. We already have 4 dogs and she laid into 3 of ours yesterday, so I couldn't consider taking her on myself. She a project for someone young and active with lots of room. I would think very trainable but not by 80+ people.

 

[lurcherlu]

Distraction distractio distraction, turn her away from other dogs and distract with food or a toy .reward good behaviour and ignore bad behaviour. She's probably nervous aggressive than anything, socialise her as much as possible with her muzzle on with dogs on their leads and two peop,e between them , walk them like this every day , get her a vest with I need space on it they are yellow , warn other walkers especially those with bouncy dogs , use a gun dog slip rather than a chicke chain , it's most likely not her fault she's like this , a gun dog slip,is less harsh but gets better results IMO . Muzzle her at all times in public ....... Always always shut her away when you answer the door , you never know when her nervous aggression could come out. Find something she is obsessed with either a ball, toy or food and use this every time you meet other dogs , as soon as they are passed u give her her reward... Her food, toy etc

 

[Dobiegirl]

I would be very interested in knowing what rescues this is, most good rescues dog test their dogs, they usually then go out to fosterers to further assess, the fact they also sent out a relatively young dog to your elderly parents however spritely is also a worry.

I dont actually see this dog as displaying nervous aggression as once she has a bite she goes back for more, she has done this before obviously and its self rewarding, this dog wants a very firm hand and consistency and is not a dog for elderly people unless they are experienced with this sort of behaviour.

 

[Alec Swan]

Suelin,

there would perhaps be a way of stopping it, and that would be by swamping the dog with what she fears, or feels that she needs to attack. I really don't think that it's a logical answer for you, or your parents. In fact I'm not so sure that the dog is such a good idea, period.

I understand that the dog, coming from a Rescue (sic), is not actually your property, but if the dog was released to you, and was the liability which it sounds, then were I in your shoes, I would put the dog down. Perhaps that's not an option for you, but it's the one that I would take. Now adult the animal is a liability, and a potentially dangerous one, at that.

If I'm not telling you what you want to hear, I apologise, but I suspect that it's yet another case of a dog being palmed off on a possibly well meaning group of people, who simply aren't qualified or able to deal with such an animal. Had the original owner done the right thing by the animal, then it wouldn't have ended up being re-homed, anyway.

Alec.

 

[Suelin]

Dobiegirl, I should like to know which rescue as well. (my folks don't live locally to me unfortunately) It seems now, on questioning father that there was no contract and in fact the dog was just "dropped off" by the well meaning neighbours who had gone to the rescue to take on a cat. No checks were done and nothing said regarding the nature of the dog. I am fuming actually, they have had, as Alec says, the dog palmed off on them.

Alec, I can't disagree with anything you have said above.. However there is not the slightest possibility that my folks will go down the pts route. They would soldier on regardless if they thought that was the only option.

I have spoken with my mother at some length this morning and I think that they will be taking the little dog back whence it came. I think in their situation it is the best that can be hoped for. Not perfect I know but then, as has been pointed out, if the original owner had done the right thing to begin with we wouldn't be in this situation now.

I will keep you posted on the outcome. If anyone wants a project......?

 

[Alec Swan]

Suelin,

I do understand, and I also accept the difficult situation which you're in. It can't be easy, and I apologise if my rather clipped remarks seemed un-caring. You, and your parents too, have my sympathy.

Alec.

 

[thewonderhorse]

Suelin,

there would perhaps be a way of stopping it, and that would be by swamping the dog with what she fears, or feels that she needs to attack. I really don't think that it's a logical answer for you, or your parents. In fact I'm not so sure that the dog is such a good idea, period.

I understand that the dog, coming from a Rescue (sic), is not actually your property, but if the dog was released to you, and was the liability which it sounds, then were I in your shoes, I would put the dog down. Perhaps that's not an option for you, but it's the one that I would take. Now adult the animal is a liability, and a potentially dangerous one, at that.

If I'm not telling you what you want to hear, I apologise, but I suspect that it's yet another case of a dog being palmed off on a possibly well meaning group of people, who simply aren't qualified or able to deal with such an animal. Had the original owner done the right thing by the animal, then it wouldn't have ended up being re-homed, anyway.

Alec.

Alec, your answer to a lot of comments/threads I have read is PTS. Totally unnecessary IMO.

Poor dog. Yes it does make life difficult when you have a dog like this but to PTS every dog with an issue is, in my opinion, not at all necessary.

OP. I think you are right however that your parents are probably not right for this dog and vice versa.

 

[Dobiegirl]

It makes me cross on your parents behalf, what sort of rescue was it, it was a good job this dog didnt have aggression towards people because it might have had a different outcome. Im glad for your parents sake and your sanity the dog is going back, there are lots of lovely rescue dogs out there without issues just in need of a lovely home.

If every dog that had dog aggression was pts there would be few dogs around, Ive had a few in my time and with training they have gone on to be lovely dogs with no further issues.

 

[lexiedhb]

I would be very interested in knowing what rescues this is, most good rescues dog test their dogs, they usually then go out to fosterers to further assess, the fact they also sent out a relatively young dog to your elderly parents however spritely is also a worry.

I dont actually see this dog as displaying nervous aggression as once she has a bite she goes back for more, she has done this before obviously and its self rewarding, this dog wants a very firm hand and consistency and is not a dog for elderly people unless they are experienced with this sort of behaviour.

Tis possible that she did not display these behaviours in ths rescue/kennel environment tho.
Not that there is any excuse for sending a random dog home with cat loving neighbours!!!!!!!!!

 

[Honey08]

I can't imagine why a rescue would think sending a dog like that to an elderly couple would be a good idea, totally the wrong type of dog for someone in their 80s even without the issues..

We have had this issue with my female lab (there is a post on here somewhere a few months back). She hasn't bitten, just growled. She is the greediest dog in the world, but ignores all treats and can't be distracted at all if dogs come into the field by our house.

The way forward with her has been walking her with other dogs on the lead initially, then allowing her off the lead to run once she is calm. I also make her wait in the garden until I check that the field is empty and nobody is coming with a dog before I let her out in the field where the issues are. I have also done a lot more individual recall and playing with her in the last few month. All things she already knew but that we have let slide a bit perhaps.

If your parents can, I would tire this dog out on the lead (muzzled if need be). Do you think she is getting enough exercise in general?

I don't think PTS is the answer, I do think it could be overcome, but TBH, I don't know how two eighty somethings are going to get there, however fit they are. :-(

 

[2Greys]

Maybe see if there's a spaniel rescue that could take her on if your folks are unlikely to cope with activity levels & training. It does sound an odd rescue to send dog off to people they've not even met, but do get some which are just dog dealers.

Does sound like she needs a behaviorist to see what's going on. We've just been on a reactive dog socialisation course, understanding why & how best to respond made a big difference & given class of dogs were all kicking off at start most were able to get within 6ft after time & be relaxed.

 

[brightmount]

I agree with 2Greys, the best thing for this dog would be a Springer Spaniel Rescue. As your parents didn't sign anything, it doesn't have to go back to the original rescue, which sounds totally irresponsible, and the whole scenario is likely to repeat itself.

Your parents needn't live with the thought they have let the dog down if they are the means by which it goes via an appropriate rescue to a home equipped to deal with the breed and the issues that she currently has. They can instead feel proud for having helped her.

 

[Woodsider]

This is the second scenario I have heard about this week - the other was a seven month old Boxer sent home with an infirm 76 year old chap and his equally infirm wife! It just makes me so cross that dogs are passed on to new owners without sufficient thought as to the suitability of the proposed environment and lifestyle.

I assist at training classes and in addition to the indoor Good Citizen-type courses, we also run outdoor classes aimed at owners with this very problem of aggressive/nervous reaction to other dogs plus recall difficulties, food aggression etc. Many of the dogs have been rescued at some stage and about 75% of our current class are "mis-matches". We always have a long waiting list of owners wanting to enrol!

OP, whereabouts do your parents live? I too would be exploring the specialist Springer Rescue organisations. I am sure your parents would relinquish the dog if they could be certain that considerable effort would be given to finding a suitable home. Feel free to PM me if they are in the North West region.

One of the tricks we find works for some dogs is for the owner to keep a toy on their person which they use as a distraction technique but the dog is never allowed to have it! Mine is a pork-chop type of squeeker, from a pound shop - fits in my pocket, brought out to distract in developing situations and shown to the dog who is encouraged to think that today might just be the day he/she is gets to play with it. Of course, it never is that day - dog is told "No, not now - maybe next time" and watches it disappear back into pocket. The attention has been diverted from the original problem and the owner is once again the focus of the dog's interest.

Sorry for rambling on - hope you haven't lost the will to live!!

 

[Alec Swan]

Alec, your answer to a lot of comments/threads I have read is PTS. Totally unnecessary IMO.

.......

As you rightly say, 'In your opinion', but just because you disagree with me, is hardly the reason for me to refrain from offering an opinion, when asked. My opinions are based upon the fact that despite the claims of many, and to the contrary, reversing the behaviour of an animal which is between 2 and 5 years of age is not only difficult, but on occasions impossible, especially for elderly people who are in their 80s.

I would also point out that a great many dogs which display aggression towards either other dogs or humans, often do so for reasons which they were born with. Genetics can and do, all so often, dictate a dog's behaviour patterns or their predisposition to accepting discipline, or not. You may not like that, but it's a fact, and just as preventing sheepdogs from herding, terriers from killing rats or gundogs from retrieving, it isn't quite as simple as many would claim.

When a dog is a liability, or a danger to others, then the blanket refusal to put them to sleep, is a decision for the individual to make, and all so often one which is taken when the owner, for the very best reasons decides that they can't continue. There are more than a few who've taken that decision on here, and correctly, in my opinion.

Alec.

 

[thewonderhorse]

As you rightly say, 'In your opinion', but just because you disagree with me, is hardly the reason for me to refrain from offering an opinion, when asked. My opinions are based upon the fact that despite the claims of many, and to the contrary, reversing the behaviour of an animal which is between 2 and 5 years of age is not only difficult, but on occasions impossible, especially for elderly people who are in their 80s.

I would also point out that a great many dogs which display aggression towards either other dogs or humans, often do so for reasons which they were born with. Genetics can and do, all so often, dictate a dog's behaviour patterns or their predisposition to accepting discipline, or not. You may not like that, but it's a fact, and just as preventing sheepdogs from herding, terriers from killing rats or gundogs from retrieving, it isn't quite as simple as many would claim.

When a dog is a liability, or a danger to others, then the blanket refusal to put them to sleep, is a decision for the individual to make, and all so often one which is taken when the owner, for the very best reasons decides that they can't continue. There are more than a few who've taken that decision on here, and correctly, in my opinion.

Alec.

We shall have to agree to disagree.

 

[Dobiegirl]

There are many dogs out there who have been failed by their owners and have behavioural problems because of it, that dosnt mean they cant be turned around with the right handling. People seem to be less dog savvy these days which seems to go hand in hand with behaviour issues, putting these dogs down is not going to address it as the owner will just go out and get another dog and repeat the process.

I like many on here foster dogs,some have had problems which have been worked on and prospective owners are taught how to handle the dog, matching the right people to the dog is key. All my owners stay in touch with me and I get regular updates and photos which is how all good rescues should operate. I am not a behaviourist just someone who has spent a lifetime owning dogs and using good old common sense, Im also very open to new ideas and am not stuck in my ways, in my experience dogs with problems are mostly a handling issue, change the handling change the behaviour.

 

[lexiedhb]

There are many dogs out there who have been failed by their owners and have behavioural problems because of it, that dosnt mean they cant be turned around with the right handling. People seem to be less dog savvy these days which seems to go hand in hand with behaviour issues, putting these dogs down is not going to address it as the owner will just go out and get another dog and repeat the process.

I like many on here foster dogs,some have had problems which have been worked on and prospective owners are taught how to handle the dog, matching the right people to the dog is key. All my owners stay in touch with me and I get regular updates and photos which is how all good rescues should operate. I am not a behaviourist just someone who has spent a lifetime owning dogs and using good old common sense, Im also very open to new ideas and am not stuck in my ways, in my experience dogs with problems are mostly a handling issue, change the handling change the behaviour.

But you have to want to DG- its all too easy to have the "problem" dog PTS and move on to the next non messed up pup for some- which is of course their choice, but not the choice of many of us.

 

[thewonderhorse]

There are many dogs out there who have been failed by their owners and have behavioural problems because of it, that dosnt mean they cant be turned around with the right handling. People seem to be less dog savvy these days which seems to go hand in hand with behaviour issues, putting these dogs down is not going to address it as the owner will just go out and get another dog and repeat the process.

I like many on here foster dogs,some have had problems which have been worked on and prospective owners are taught how to handle the dog, matching the right people to the dog is key. All my owners stay in touch with me and I get regular updates and photos which is how all good rescues should operate. I am not a behaviourist just someone who has spent a lifetime owning dogs and using good old common sense, Im also very open to new ideas and am not stuck in my ways, in my experience dogs with problems are mostly a handling issue, change the handling change the behaviour.

But you have to want to DG- its all too easy to have the "problem" dog PTS and move on to the next non messed up pup for some- which is of course their choice, but not the choice of many of us.

Exactly. Couldn't agree more with both of these.

 

[Suelin]

What to do about stubborn parents eh? Thus far they are saying that they can't pass her on, although I and my brother are doing our best to persuade them to make that decision. Springer rescue is a very good idea and they may possibly go for that. In the meantime, the dog is being spayed on Monday in the hope that this may improve her temperament. I have my doubts in truth, but you never know. They have contacted a trainer local to them in Wellingborough and have made arrangements for training to commence shortly. After the spay I think.

I am very grateful to ALL the advice that has been freely given on here. More than you all know. This is a very stressful situation for everyone. The main thing we want to achieve is a happy relaxed dog and equally relaxed parents.

If anyone has any training contacts in this area of Northamptonshire I would be very grateful to have the details.

This dog is trainable, the major problem is the age of the owners, who with the best will in the world, are definitely not able to sprint about after the dog anymore. I will keep you all posted regarding the outcome. In the meantime I will be pushing the Springer rescue to see if mother will agree. Did I tell you all she has attitude?

Thankyou all again.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

We neutered Zak in the vain hope that it would curb his aggression to other dogs. Pointless. Flooding, as Alec mentions, may work, but I know mine would simply go down fighting in a bundle of bigger stronger dogs. He's adorable with people and I think he'd have been PTS or passed from one to another had someone got in there first. Good job we were first to view.

 

[Honey08]

What to do about stubborn parents eh? Thus far they are saying that they can't pass her on, although I and my brother are doing our best to persuade them to make that decision. Springer rescue is a very good idea and they may possibly go for that. In the meantime, the dog is being spayed on Monday in the hope that this may improve her temperament. I have my doubts in truth, but you never know. They have contacted a trainer local to them in Wellingborough and have made arrangements for training to commence shortly. After the spay I think.

I am very grateful to ALL the advice that has been freely given on here. More than you all know. This is a very stressful situation for everyone. The main thing we want to achieve is a happy relaxed dog and equally relaxed parents.

If anyone has any training contacts in this area of Northamptonshire I would be very grateful to have the details.

This dog is trainable, the major problem is the age of the owners, who with the best will in the world, are definitely not able to sprint about after the dog anymore. I will keep you all posted regarding the outcome. In the meantime I will be pushing the Springer rescue to see if mother will agree. Did I tell you all she has attitude?

Thankyou all again.

I do feel for you. There is nothing worse than aging parents who don't think they are! I've got one. My ex's grandfather managed to get himself a young dog when he was 82, he sat inside all day and chain smoked over it. I used to take it out and walk it when home, he just let it out in the garden otherwise. Sounds awful to say, but thankfully he died after 2 years of the dog having such a crap life, and the dog went to live with the family next door and had a good life. Some of these so-called rescues drive me mad in how stupid they can be. I am very pro rescue, but only the responsible ones.

 

[Dobiegirl]

Suelin, you are caught between a rock and a hard place, maybe if a trainer is found he can talk your parents around to giving up the dog and finding an older more reliable dog who will not give them any stress but be a pleasure to them both.

I have no contacts in Northampton Im afraid, maybe look on the KC site and seek out trainers there, good luck to you all.