Spay or keep entire

[nellietinker]

Another one who would say spay having had a bitch have the most horrendous phantom pregnancy after her first season at 15 months. The vet said she was a hormonal basket case. I would opt for spaying every time. Since being spayed she has turned out to be a brilliant sheepdog!

 

[windand rain]

Mine wore pants pretty much the colour of her coat to prevent any loose dogs getting that close while in season and for walking only walked naked for a pee or poo if we had any accidents forgot to undo the pants they were easily washed. Dont currently have entire males in the family so its just responsible dog ownership. Had Willow spayed due to being under an anaesthetic for another reason and regretted it from day 1 she was 8 and it seemed the right thing to do. She aged overnight became more fearful and anxious we can no longer go on holiday as she is only happy at home. She now vomits and refuses to eat if left with anyone else which is fine for a few hours but not for long periods. We are going to try a house sitter this year for a couple of nights but as she only eats if we are both near by it might not work. Still as long as she not sick she would be okay not eating for a day or two. She is not the only one we have had issues with. I always thought spaying was best until the problems started becoming easily linked to the spay op

 

[Petmurf]

Spay, we had a rescue a few years ago who had been used for breeding then thrown out on the streets, we had her Spayed but sadly she only lived a few years as she got mammary cancer which the vet said could have been there when we got her.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I didn't say there are no dogs, there are no stray dogs. I certainly wouldn't put any dog through a GA simply for my convenience.

ETA, in reply to Meleeka, don't know what happened to the quote function

 

[scats]

I always spay. Reducing the risk of pyrometra being one of the main reasons why.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I have had both my labradors spayed that I became the proud owner of last year. Unfortunately where we live, even only exercising on our own land there are many, many neighboring dogs that roam free and will even climb over our dog proof gates at the house to get to any bitches on the premises.

But I have had many bitches spayed over the years, more because I felt the risk of not doing so far out weighed the risk of spaying. But interestingly, when I was dithering and researching for advice on here last year some people pointed out that spaying/neutering can make dogs more aggressive, ridiculous I though, never, ever experienced that.

Wrong! Our very sweet, gentle and lovely natured Jem - who is an absolute sweetie at home with all the family - can no longer be walked off lead on the tracks down to our fields in case she spots a neighboring farmer on the track....she has twice pinned two of them into the hedge literally snarling and threatening if he dares so much as move a muscle. We were mortified - and if anyone dares to come onto our property at all she will launch herself at the hedgerows or the windows of the house to get at them. This is a labrador for God's sake!! We now have a totally dog proof paddcok behind the house for her and for our other one who is also now spayed, she is still sweet and loving with everyone, but sadly will go looking for livestock to chase if she were allowed to run free on our yard and land.

Maybe she just decided she prefers being a family dog than a show dog (which she was but unfortunately did not like the ring) according to ex owner - humph! We reckon she probably savaged the judge lol!

 

[AmyMay]

Fortunately we don't live in area where there are stray dogs and there is a choice of secure 'dog-fields' to take them to, as well as being able to provide some exercise at home.

NOT @Tiddleypom
It makes me cross to read that owners should spay to prevent unwanted pregnancies - no, they should keep their dogs under control! My parents kept entire dogs and bitches together and even with 2 children in the family never had an unwanted litter. We were taught to close doors and gates!

An unplanned pregnancy was never a concern for me or a reason to spay. It was done for the health of my dog. However every owner of an unspayed bitch should be concerned about an unplanned pregnancy.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

An unplanned pregnancy was never a concern for me or a reason to spay. It was done for the health of my dog. However every owner of an unspayed bitch should be concerned about an unplanned pregnancy.

IMHO, unplanned pregnancy is something to bear in mind when you have an unspayed bitch, or are weighing up the pros and cons of spaying but it need not/should not be the deciding factor for a responsible owner who takes steps to ensure that their dog doesn't stray at other times. Our unspayed bitches don't get the opportunity to stray whether they are in season or not.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Lucky you but not everyone has this. Some people live in very populated areas where they have to mix with other dogs.

As a dog owner I've lived/live in two different areas of Sweden's next largest city, and have had unspayed bitches for many years without much problems. Fenced in dog fields are not that common. Of the ones I know of, none of them is big enough to go for walks inside, and all of them is only intended to be accessed by owners walking to them with their dogs. Bicycle might also work, but not car. They're just intended for owners wanting to let their dog off leash for a little while, in a fenced in area.
All dog owners I know of, walk their dogs in public, regardless if their dogs/bitches are entire or not, all the year around. When my bitches were in season, I tried to walk them when, and were, I thought we would be less likely to meet other dogs, but that's all.

By the way, castrating, and spaying healthy dogs/bitches was actually illegal in Sweden up until as late as 1988.

Besides the bitch I had to euthanise only around 2 years old, due to mental, and physical problems which had nothing to do with being unspayed, the other 6 bitches I've owned/own have not been spayed until I've suspected/known there's a problem. Because spaying is somewhat expensive over here/in my area, and the insurance company only helps to pay for it if there's a problem.
I think they've been around 8-11 years old. All survived their spaying, though various degree of pyometra. As I recall, fit as fiddles within hours to around 3 days if you asked them, but I've done my best to try following the recommendations from my veterinarians about mainly short, and careful walks the first week.

But the around 3 days is because of Jonna, without her I would have said they behaved like fully recovered within hours to 2 days. However, Jonna bled a lot, more than any of my other bitches regardless of the reason for the surgery. The nurse mentioned they'd had a bit of problem with bleeding during the surgery, and the wound still hadn't quite stopped bleeding when I got her back. So, it did take her longer to recover.

One of my late bitches developed a bit of urine incontinence, which didn't respond to the medication available at her time. People are coloured by their experiences, besides the cost for the surgery, the risk for urine incontinence is something which makes me want to postpone the risk for that happening to another one of my bitches for as long as possible.

 

[Umbongo]

Always spay a bitch for health reasons. Castrating male dogs is on an individual basis.

I have seen so many phantom pregnancies, pyometras and aggressive mammary cancers. Most bitches that come in to the vets with a pyo are older & severely sick. Surgery is the only treatment and the odd dog doesn't make it sadly.

Unplanned pregnancies should be a concern. Quite a lot of people don't have the money or the right set up for a mum & litter, and don't think about potential risks eg: c-sections, treatment for infections, pups with medical problems, even death of mum and/or pups.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Another one who would say spay having had a bitch have the most horrendous phantom pregnancy after her first season at 15 months. The vet said she was a hormonal basket case. I would opt for spaying every time. Since being spayed she has turned out to be a brilliant sheepdog!

I just want to mention that pseudo/phantom-pregnancies can happen also to spayed bitches.

"Although we usually associate false or pseudopregnancies with entire bitches they can also occur in spayed bitches. If a bitch is spayed when she already has a pseudopregnancy the physical and particularly behavioural signs can persist indefinitely if they are not recognised and treated (Harvey et al, 1999). It is therefore very important that, before being booked in for spaying, bitches that have had at least one season are checked for any physical signs of pseudopregnancy including mammary enlargement and milk production and owners asked about the presence of any behavioural signs that could be consistent with a pseudopregnancy. These can include aggression, often in the context of guarding resources such as food, bed or other resting place or toys, nesting behaviour including digging, irritability and increased reactivity to stimuli or sometimes depression and reduced reactivity.

If a pseudopregnancy is suspected the bitch should be treated with the anti-prolactin drug cabergoline (Galastop, CEVA) until all physical and behavioural signs have gone, before she is spayed in order to prevent the pseudopregnancy persisting after spaying (Harvey et al, 1999). Although the Galastop data sheet indicates that a course of 4–6 days should be sufficient to treat signs of pseudopregnancy in bitches it often needs to be given for at least 2 weeks until the behavioural signs have completely gone (Ramsey, 2011).

Bitches can also develop a pseudopregnancy if they are spayed in the metoestrous period immediately following a season when progesterone is raised. Removing the ovaries leads to a sudden drop in progesterone which can trigger the release of prolactin from the anterior pituitary and precipitate a pseudopregnancy. This is most likely if a bitch is spayed in the 2 months after a season but post-spay pseudopregnancies have been reported in bitches spayed up to 5 months after a season (Harvey et al 1999)."

The above text is copied from this page https://www.theveterinarynurse.com/...hs-commonly-associated-with-neutering-in-dogs

 

[MurphysMinder]

Another vote for spay, having lost a bitch to pyo I would never leave a bitch entire until old age. However, I would leave it till she is at least 2 years old, preferably older so she is fully mature.

 

[Clodagh]

All of mine are spayed but it really is rubbish to say that if they aren't spayed they will get pregnant. Yes I am rural now but I used to have entire bitches in town. BITD when I was young I remember male dogs turning up from all over and camping out on the doorstep, we still never had an unwanted pregnancy. A lead and a stick work wonders in a crisis.

Also for me the shooting season is only 4 months long, a bitch needing 4 (I always assume the worst with hormones) weeks out of that would put a mighty dent in her career, and I don't have endless back up dogs.
Ffee hated being in seaon, she was a wet weekend, we don't have to cope with that any more.
I don't have to worry, every time they lick their 'bits' that they are getting pyo. (I can be neurotic). Most bitches that shoot are entire and I would say a very high percentage have pyo or mammary lumps as they age.

 

[SAujla]

All of this advice is very important and helpful. I'm going to take a lot of time to think as her spay would be next year anyway when she'll be nearly 2. Small chance of letting her have a third season and spay at 2.5 years or if her second season is later than I'm expecting that would probably be ideal.

I'm leaning towards a laparoscopic spay at the moment, but I'd want to know how experienced the surgeon is who's doing it.

 

[Clodagh]

I think Id go for laparoscopic too if money was OK. Agree to check how many the surgeon does and go to a specialist.
Also, they do still need restricted exercise after it, which needs remembering.

 

[SAujla]

I think Id go for laparoscopic too if money was OK. Agree to check how many the surgeon does and go to a specialist.
Also, they do still need restricted exercise after it, which needs remembering.

I'll definitely need to keep on top of her exercise, hopefully she'll be mature enough to not have that puppy energy but I'll find a way to keep her safe. Think I'll go for the surgical body suit instead of the cone as well

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

All of mine are spayed but it really is rubbish to say that if they aren't spayed they will get pregnant. Yes I am rural now but I used to have entire bitches in town. BITD when I was young I remember male dogs turning up from all over and camping out on the doorstep, we still never had an unwanted pregnancy. A lead and a stick work wonders in a crisis.

Also for me the shooting season is only 4 months long, a bitch needing 4 (I always assume the worst with hormones) weeks out of that would put a mighty dent in her career, and I don't have endless back up dogs.
Ffee hated being in seaon, she was a wet weekend, we don't have to cope with that any more.
I don't have to worry, every time they lick their 'bits' that they are getting pyo. (I can be neurotic). Most bitches that shoot are entire and I would say a very high percentage have pyo or mammary lumps as they age.

As a family we have had a lot of Labradors, mostly bitches, none spayed routinely. None of them has had a pyo and only one had a mammary tumour aged around 10 (I think) and lived another 5 happy healthy years after surgery to remove the tumour and spay her. At the time the vet told me that in order to lessen the risk of mammary tumours Labs should be spayed prior to their 1st season. Vet thinking may have changed since then but there are a lot of potential problems associated with having bitches spayed before their first season.

 

[SAujla]

Vet thinking may have changed since then but there are a lot of potential problems associated with having bitches spayed before their first season.

The vets I'm with won't spay before the first season unless it's a medical emergency, but other vets in my area said they would (I asked around before getting Clover to see what each practice would say). I'll find out a lot more information when my pup goes in for her booster in May

 

[Bellasophia]

Here’s a link re labs and goldens...
It’s recommending no puppy spays...even waiting up to 2 or even 3 years to reduce risks of cancers linked to early spaying ,especially in these particular breeds.
https://www.akcchf.org/educational-resources/library/articles/an-update-on-the-health.html

https://www.akcchf.org/research/research-portfolio/1488.html

 

[Clodagh]

Vets round here strongly recommend at least 2 seasons first.

 

[Bellasophia]

Re the vaccine for your pup...are you following the three year ( minimum )booster vaccination schedule..

Have a look at this link
WSAV
https://wsava.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/WSAVA-Vaccination-Guidelines-2015.pdf

Simplified version. Blue cross.
Base core vaccines every three years as a minimum.
https://www.bluecross.org.uk/pet-advice/puppy-and-dog-vaccinations

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Here’s a link re labs and goldens...
It’s recommending no puppy spays...even waiting up to 2 or even 3 years to reduce risks of cancers linked to early spaying ,especially in these particular breeds.
https://www.akcchf.org/educational-resources/library/articles/an-update-on-the-health.html

https://www.akcchf.org/research/research-portfolio/1488.html

Vets round here strongly recommend at least 2 seasons first.

So what is the Lab owner to do, weigh up the comparative options of avoiding mammary tumours, or avoiding other tumours? Only one of our Labs has ever had a non-mammary tumour - that was an almost 15 yr old brown Lab bitch who had a pancreatic tumour. She had lived a long life with epilepsy. All the others were pts when arthritis got to be too much for them.
I shall continue with my 'no routine spay' policy unless either of the current pair has problems with her seasons.

 

[windand rain]

So what is the Lab owner to do, weigh up the comparative options of avoiding mammary tumours, or avoiding other tumours? Only one of our Labs has ever had a non-mammary tumour - that was an almost 15 yr old brown Lab bitch who had a pancreatic tumour. She had lived a long life with epilepsy. All the others were pts when arthritis got to be too much for them.
I shall continue with my 'no routine spay' policy unless either of the current pair has problems with her seasons.

I will never spay or neuter again except on emergency medical grounds. I have never had a male dog neutered and all the elective bitch spays, over 65 years, have been disasters and so will not do it again as I personally have no issue with them being entire and all that goes with it

 

[MurphysMinder]

I don’t think it’s particularly labs, my vet said the only way to almost guarantee no mammary tumours was to spay before 6 months , but for many other reasons that wasn’t advisable. I have also never spayed for my convenience but for the bitches health .

 

[Bellasophia]

Every dog is an individual..every owner has a different lifestyle to offer their dogs..mixed sex pack?safe walks when in season?a certain breed of dog who may need to wait even three years before maturity( mollossoids)
And so on.
In my life..
I’ve had dog spayed at eight( epileptic...high anaesthesia risk)
Dog spayed at seven..( autoimmune insufficient.. ..but had
phantoms)
Dog ,(small breed )spayed at9 months( lived with intact male..allowed one season)
Dog un spayed...lived to 16...last year had mammary tumors.
Mollossoid spayed at one( pyometra..life threatening) died at 3 due to embolism following ortho surgery..I blame her early spay for her ortho issues..
Dog spayed at three..became very aggressive after spay..mollossoid type.
So each and every case is different..
I repeat..
Each and every case different..
But IF you decide to spay ,neuter or leave as is.....
........in every case evaluate
....the breed.
....the breed risks,
....the lifestyle you offer to an un neutered dog(can you keep them safe..physically and medically)
And so on...
We’ve long passed the obligatory finger pointing that puppies must be neutered before their first season etc..god forbid....

But for the first time owner facing the “should I should I not neuter my dog scenario”,the only answer is gather information and then decide, based on the particular breed and your own lifestyle with your dog.

 

[Bellasophia]

Pearls..it’s more the osteosarcoma incidence connected with very early spay in these 2 breeds that is the red flag..not mammary tumors..( my own vet says mammary tumors are easily excised if the vigilant owner spots them early..avoiding a full mammary strip..) so doesn’t advocate early spay at all.

 

[SAujla]

But for the first time owner facing the “should I should I not neuter my dog scenario”,the only answer is gather information and then decide, based on the particular breed and your own lifestyle with your dog.

It's not really my lifestyle more her health that is my only concern. She's a show dog so she's fit into my lifestyle like a glove. I'm as certain as I can be that she won't get pregnant, she's my entire world so I wouldn't/shouldn't make that mistake and I can manage her seasons just fine with indoor activities. There are just clear risks either way I'm finding it difficult to decide.

The laparoscopic spay definitely feels like the best option, as does letting her have two more seasons and spay after she's turned two. My instinct right now says to do that.

 

[Nasicus]

It's not really my lifestyle more her health that is my only concern. She's a show dog so she's fit into my lifestyle like a glove. I'm as certain as I can be that she won't get pregnant, she's my entire world so I wouldn't/shouldn't make that mistake and I can manage her seasons just fine with indoor activities. There are just clear risks either way I'm finding it difficult to decide.

The laparoscopic spay definitely feels like the best option, as does letting her have two more seasons and spay after she's turned two. My instinct right now says to do that.

Sounds like you've got quite a sensible plan

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Pearls..it’s more the osteosarcoma incidence connected with very early spay in these 2 breeds that is the red flag..not mammary tumors..( my own vet says mammary tumors are easily excised if the vigilant owner spots them early..avoiding a full mammary strip..) so doesn’t advocate early spay at all.

Well it was over 30 years ago

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

It's not really my lifestyle more her health that is my only concern. She's a show dog so she's fit into my lifestyle like a glove. I'm as certain as I can be that she won't get pregnant, she's my entire world so I wouldn't/shouldn't make that mistake and I can manage her seasons just fine with indoor activities. There are just clear risks either way I'm finding it difficult to decide.

The laparoscopic spay definitely feels like the best option, as does letting her have two more seasons and spay after she's turned two. My instinct right now says to do that.

You have approached spay in the same way that you researched before you got her, so whatever you decide you will be making an informed decision. Just the sort of owner that every dog needs.