Speculation welcome: what's wrong with his hip?

[feesh]

So, I've been working with a family friend's horse (groundwork only so far), and there is something noticeably off in his right hind. He's been a pasture puff most of his life, and he's happy enough puttering around the field, but I'm not sure he'll be able to get sound enough to actually do ridden work.

The vet is coming next week, but.... I'm not sure how much useful information we'll get from that. This vet has seen this horse about this problem before: he came back from a summer's training several years ago, and the vet allegedly said that there was something wrong with his hip, but they didn't know specifically what it was, and that he just needed work on hills & in straight lines. Since then he has been in the field (owner is a farmer; her horses are primarily pets).

I'm hoping that speaking to the vet directly will give me more details (I suspect his owner has forgotten a fair bit, and vet may have been more specific originally), but in the mean time, I'd like to do as much research as I can, in hopes of being able to ask useful questions, and possibly find a follow-up massage/physio/chiro option as well. So, armchair vets: speculate away! What do you think is wrong with his hip?

Observations:

- Shorter steps in off hind, especially in trot.
- Tends to be better if he's been out overnight, stiffer if he's been in
- Sometimes you can feel (but not hear) a click when you push on his right hip. Can't quite tell what is clicking.
- Lifts both hind feet fairly high when picking out feet, but especially off hind. Some days he snatches it almost up to his stomach before lowering to reasonable height to pick out - this is a good sign that he'll be stiffer that day.
- No obvious sore spots on hips/back. Does sometimes move away from being poked in the hip, but it's hard to tell if he's uncomfortable, or just thinks he's being asked to move over.
- Resistant to working on left rein. More resistance at walk than trot, and more resistance over poles than flat.
- Has trouble picking up left lead sometimes. Ranges from 1 in 5 times to 4/5 times, but it's never 100%. Will sometimes pick up right, then swap. Starting canter on left rein often = big bucks.
- Canter on right rein sometimes gets a small buck or two but generally ok.
- Doesn't seem resistant to walk > trot or trot > canter transitions in general.
- No objection to saddle (I tack him up loose, and he stands quietly for saddle, but *does* walk away from other things he doesn't like).
- Difficulty backing up in deeper snow (6+ inches), and some days is resistant to backing up at all (hard to tell if this is when he's in pain, or just if he's feeling uncooperative - he definitely knows how, but is also very green and sometimes just has cranky days)
- Noticeably cow-hocked, but otherwise decent conformation.
- Generally happy in the field, and not noticeablely lame, unless you're really looking. Runs around like an idiot and does acrobatics when turned out in the mornings, etc.


Background:
- 14 year old 16.2(ish) well-bred warmblood, home bred. Had groundwork & was shown in hand as a youngster, then maybe 6 (?) months' training when he was around 6 or 7. Learned W/T/C/jump; training ended due to hip problem. Has done NOTHING since then. Has lived in same 2 paddocks his whole life, which are directly connected to his stable, so he hasn't even been led in/out. He seems to have a lot of buttons installed, but has forgotten a lot, and also seems somewhat indignant that he's being asked to do something other than eat hay & bully the donkey. Lives in a herd of ~8, including his mom.

- Owner (of farm & horse) is well-meaning, but has limited time, money, mobility, and motivation. She's happy for me to do what I want, so long as I keep her in the loop, but it's a challenge to get her to be proactive (for example, it took several months for her have money and motivation to get the vet out, and it's really only happening because another pony has gone quite lame).

- This is essentially a ... share situation? Owner pays basic costs of feeding/trims/vet, but I am responsible for paying if I want him to have shoes, showing costs, etc. Currently my budget is taken up entirely on gas to get there and back twice a week (it's an 80 minute/70 mile round trip), although I am preparing to carve out a bit of budget for a back person & saddle fitter this summer, if needed.

- Currently I have no help, no one to trot him up, so I can get a good look etc. Owner had two knee replacements so is not very mobile, and there's a farm worker but she's busy working. Bought a cheap video camera off fb marketplace, but quality is fairly dismal, and my iphone battery isn't good enough to film in the winter. I have a horse-knowledgeable friend moving to the area in a month or so, and may be able to get help then.

- I did get on him a while back, but he was obviously confused and uncomfortable (though not dangerous), so decided to focus on groundwork until he could be seen by vet/have his teeth done. (Plus, Canadian winter: located in Eastern Ontario, no indoor arena, just a small snowy paddock with hugely variable footing). I didn't expect it to take this long, but he's come a long way in the mean time.

(Recommendations for saddle fitters and massage/physio/chiro people also gratefully received, if anyone happens to know anyone in Eastern Ontario. I can't find much info on the qualifications of the few I know about.)

 

[AmyMay]

Sounds like stringhalt.

 

[feesh]

Interesting. Is there a version of stringhalt without the exaggerated gait? The only time he lifts his feet high in what I think of as a "stringhalty" way is when he's asked to pick up his feet to pick them out. The rest of the time he has a completely normal gait except for stepping under himself less with off hind than with near hind.

 

[Equi]

Stringhalt or an old ligament issue that has healed that way and won’t ever change. If you’re doing this work with the hope you can get him ridden and showing I wouldn’t bother, you’re wasting your time and money. Let him go back to being retired.

 

[Rowreach]

Are you talking about the actual hip joint?

 

[PurBee]

It’s worth researching deeper into ‘wobblers’ syndrome in horses - you mentioning the difficulty backing up and hind limb problematic co-ordination struck me, as it is a key feature of wobblers, usually affecting hind limbs first and can be progressive to other incoordination of front limbs and general gait.


Yet, of course there’s possibility of all kinds of lameness disgnoses, so would really require deeper professional investigations to figure out exactly what youre dealing with.

 

[feesh]

Rowreach: yes, that's where the clicking seems to be (it's hard to be sure, as I've only felt it once or twice, but that's also where the owner reports it was originally).

Equi: I have no aspirations of showing, luckily. If he turns out to not be rideable at all, I'll desist, but if he's comfortable doing some low-level ridden work, then it would be worth it for me, since it's either this or not be able to do anything with horses at all. Even just lessons or part board (share?) would be an additional 150-200 pounds/month, and either a minimum commitment of 1 month (part board) or 3 months (lessons). And no flexibility to work around my job.

 

[feesh]

Purbee: I'll look into that! At first glance it doesn't seem to fit, as he has no problem backing up most days (just in deep snow or on very stiff days, and even then he still does it normally eventually), and he's not noticeably unstable or uncoordinated (aside from picking up the wrong lead sometimes). I *think* he turns normally on a small circle, but I'll have to check again - I'm usually asking him to yield his quarters when I'm paying attention to his sharp turns, rather than asking for a regular turn.

It also doesn't seem to be progressive - it was first noticed when he went out for training (at least 7 years ago), and seems to be still at the same level, or if anything it is milder now.

 

[Rowreach]

Purbee: I'll look into that! At first glance it doesn't seem to fit, as he has no problem backing up most days (just in deep snow or on very stiff days, and even then he still does it normally eventually), and he's not noticeably unstable or uncoordinated (aside from picking up the wrong lead sometimes). I *think* he turns normally on a small circle, but I'll have to check again - I'm usually asking him to yield his quarters when I'm paying attention to his sharp turns, rather than asking for a regular turn.

It also doesn't seem to be progressive - it was first noticed when he went out for training (at least 7 years ago), and seems to be still at the same level, or if anything it is milder now.

It does sound more mechanical than neurological. Be interesting to see what the vet remembers/thinks this time. Will you update us?

 

[ycbm]

I don't think it's actually been established that the issue is in the hip, has it? The click may or may not be relevant.

It seems to me that the horse needs a proper performance workup starting from the bottom up with nerve blocks.
.

 

[Starzaan]

I have had a lot of success with correcting mechanical lameness in horses caused by scar tissues from old injuries. This sounds to me like either a mild case of stringhalt or a mechanical lameness caused by scar tissue/incorrect healing of a damaged tendon or ligament.
I would firstly suggest a lameness workup, and definitely nerve blocking at the very least if a full workup can't be done.
In terms of rectifying the issues, if it IS a mechanical lameness caused by scar tissue then laser, physio, swimming, polework (particularly focusing on lateral polework, so working laterally over poles both raised slightly and on the ground), and a fairly intensive stretching programme will bring it back and rectify the issue.

Feel free to message me any time if you want any more advice or suggestions.

 

[feesh]

Rowreach: of course!

ybcm: It's been "established" in the sense that that's what the owner said that the vet said (that it's an issue with his hip but we don't know what).

Starzaan: Thanks! That's two of you who have suggested stringhalt. It really doesn't *look* like what I think of as stringhalt, but if it's mild enough, it wouldn't. I'll look into that more. I also thought it tended to be progressive, though? Which this definitely isn't.

Unfortunately, much as I would love to have it done, I don't think there's a budget for either a full lameness workup or nerve blocks (although I'll ask about costs when the vet is here). If I had the money, I'd likely be putting it towards a share that was more suitable, and the owner is likely to just want to put him back in the field, where he's comfortable and doesn't cost money--although she IS delighted someone's doing something with him, so she might be convinced!

On the plus side, if it DOES turn out to be mechanical, I'm more than happy to do the work to rehab him.

 

[ycbm]

that's what the owner said that the vet

Well my vet said my horse would show lame in the stifle not the hock. He didn't show lame to the hock, true. He showed lame to the foot!

I'm afraid I wouldn’t agree to work with an unsound horse where the owner won't investigate the problem. There's no way of knowing it's mechanical and not painful until someone does some nerve blocks or at the very least a bute trial to start with.
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[feesh]

@ycbcm: That's part of why I want to talk to the vet directly! Too much time has passed since last look, and too much of a game of telephone. I've since been able to look up the vet that's coming - he seems to be well-regarded, at least.

And yeah, I certainly won't be pushing ahead without knowing more (and why I backed off a fair bit what we were doing until the vet could come out - eg the last few weeks have been walking around the property, working on staying calm and polite even when friends are out of view).

Vet is out today, so hopefully I'll know a lot more soon!

 

[Birker2020]

Well my vet said my horse would show lame in the stifle not the hock. He didn't show lame to the hock, true. He showed lame to the foot!

I'm afraid I wouldn’t agree to work with an unsound horse where the owner won't investigate the problem. There's no way of knowing it's mechanical and not painful until someone does some nerve blocks or at the very least a bute trial to start with.
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I agree. The vet said he thought Baileys 'hopping slightly' on the right turn in trot after her suspensory branch injury on her near fore was due to mechanical lameness. She had nerve blocks but still hopped slightly and was on bute but it didn't make much difference.

She had calcification on the suspensory branch, it was never determined whether it was an issue that arose due to PRP when these adhesions can happen or whether it was a result of traumatic injury, getting her leg stuck in the wheelbarrow frame.

It never bothered her, she continued competing as before and she would have soon let you know if it hurt!

 

[feesh]

Well, either it's good news, or else Mr Horse is afflicted with the same curse that affects my cars, appliances, etc: no matter how gimpy at home, presents as 100% sound when in the presence of a diagnosing professional.

He was regular and even at walk and trot, with what miiiiight have been a hitch in his step once (but that was also in the rough corner of the paddock we were using, so he may just have stumbled a bit). Vet could not find any sore spots or issues with his joints.

Vet's opinion is that he's a middle-aged horse who's been mooching around a smallish paddock for years, and is probably unevenly muscled and stiffer to one side. He's told me to get him working harder to get more muscle on him, and to make sure he gets worked evenly both sides, and that should solve any niggling issues (and that if there's something more underlying, it'll bring it out enough to be diagnosable).

Which means that that's now three pros who have taken a look at him and said "dude needs more muscles." (Original vet, a very experienced friend, and current vet).

I'm very glad that, like Birker2020's mare, he has NO compunction about letting you know if he doesn't like something.

(His teeth were also a disaster, so I'm very glad that's fixed.)

 

[ycbm]

Crack on with a fittening program now then let us know how it goes?

 

[feesh]

Well, I promised an update, and there still isn't much to update, but I'm back lurking here, so here is the "progress" so far:

-> Kept working on groundwork fitness 3x week.
-> Started getting on him in June, both bareback & with a reasonably fitting saddle. He had no objection to being mounted, but he was very reluctant to move forward - I got at most one circle at a time of the round pen we were using. It was very hard to tell whether it was due to discomfort or being unclear about what he was being asked. He did have a tendency to start pawing, which is usually his sign for "I'm bored/frustrated." He worked exactly the same bareback/with saddle when I was on the ground, and also showed the same reluctance when I was bareback, so if it was pain, it seems that it was due to rider weight, not the saddle itself.
-> But before I could problem solve more than that, he came up lame in his near fore. Xrays showed what is likely the beginnings of arthritis in his elbow, so he got a few weeks off to see if that would help.
-> I was juuuust starting to bring him back into work again to see if he'd hold up, when family stuff turned that into a 6+ month hiatus.
-> In January I contacted a trainer to come work with him, and see if she could get him going forward. She recommended that I have her chiropractor look at him to rule out any other pain first (plus everything was ice all winter, so we wouldn't have been able to do anything anyway). Chiro saw him twice, and pronounced him VERY crooked, but not actually sore anywhere. So, time to get a bit of muscle back on him and finally have the trainer see him, but....
-> He's been lame on and off all spring, largely because he has to be turned out with another large gelding who ALSO loves to play like an idiot, so there is a lot of playfighting and galloping in a paddock too small for a proper gallop (and therefore a lot of sliding stops). And currently he's got himself an abscess.

So. If he ever manages to be sound again, I'll see about getting him a bit back in shape and have the trainer out, but for the time being he's living his best life being an overenthusiastic pasture puff.

Luckily (for me), I've been able to work with the owner's "own" horse since December, as he got laminitis in the fall, and has been put on a diet, and badly needed some exercise. He has his own challenges, but he's a sweetheart.

 

[Floofball]

Just read the thread and your update. It really doesn’t sound like this horse will stand up to any work if he’s laming himself just being turned out with an enthusiastic playmate. I think I’d just be leaving him to play. I’m glad you have another horse to be giving your attention to and hope you get to have some fun and enjoyment with him

 

[ycbm]

Thanks for the update, but I don't think I'd be bothering to try and get him into work. You don't own him, his owner will keep him as a pet, he's now 15 and has never really been in work, he's been noticeably lame for years with an undiagnosed problem with a hip and more recently with known arthritis in an elbow, and even if you do manage to get him going he will probably have another play in the field one day and go lame again. I'm not sure what the point would be in starting him again and it doesn't sound as if it would be at all in his interests.

I'm sorry if that isn't supportive but it's meant to be helpful. You could invest a lot of time and emotion and money to try to make him a ridden horse, when that seems very likely to lead to disappointment.
.

 

[Equi]

Yeah, in the words of Kenny rogers you gotta know when to walk away. This horse isn’t a ridden prospect.

 

[fidleyspromise]

Reading your post I could have been reading about my New Forest except she's 17. A massage weekly keeps her sound and comfortable (she's field kept, not ridden).
I'm glad you have another to play with as this horse sounds like retirement is needed.

 

[feesh]

No, he'll never be able to do much, and I know that. However, every professional who's looked at him (three vets & a bodyworker, plus my vet nurse/experienced horseperson friend) has said that he'd benefit significantly from regular, easy hacking.

I do fully expect to find that he's not even up to gentle ridden work, but there's also an... interpersonal component, I guess? The owner's other horse was bought to replace her "heart horse," but for various reasons, she's barely even gotten on him in the 3 years she's had him. I think she's finding it very difficult to watch me ride him regularly, make progress with him, and cope with the "quirks" that she can't. If she feels that I'm "giving up" on horse A in order to ride the "better" horse B, I think that will be challenging. But if it's framed as "horse A simply can't be ridden," then horse B becomes a mutual favour, with the attendant good will - she's offering me a replacement horse to ride, and I'm getting him going for her. And a firm no from someone more experienced than me will help as well (the trainer I'm planning to use specializes in problem horses - she's very well regarded and I've watched her work with other horses & really like her methods).

I've known since I started working with him that he might not turn out to be rideable, so it's always been a bit of a gamble, but it turns out that I really enjoy groundwork, and he's taught me a lot. Another couple of months of work won't feel like a waste for me, and it would just be mostly handwalking and gentle groundwork, followed by a couple of sessions with the trainer, so nothing arduous for him.

 

[ycbm]

my vet nurse/experienced horseperson friend) has said that he'd benefit significantly from regular, easy hacking.

I can understand that he might benefit from regular easy walks, but I don't see how it's of benefit to any horse to sit on their backs,. It's neutral at best but in a compromised horse it, surely it must be risking harm to add a riders weight?
.

 

[Snowfilly]

I can understand that he might benefit from regular easy walks, but I don't see how it's of benefit to any horse to sit on their backs,. It's neutral at best but in a compromised horse it, surely it must be risking harm to add a riders weight?
.

Regular in hand walking maybe but I can’t see a single argument for sitting on something as comprised as this horse.

 

[feesh]

I think that the vets suggested walking under saddle due to logistics? He has a BIG forward walk that even I find difficult to keep up with (and I'm a runner), and it would be significantly easier to do the volume of walking/kind of movement that would be good for him if one was on his back. The vets and bodyworker also don't seem to think he's that compromised - just that his conformation wouldn't stand up to heavy/medium work. I strongly suspect that the arthritis will be the limiting factor, rather than any of the rest of his crookedness.

(As far as we can tell, the main causes of lameness this spring have been a solid kick from his friend, and the abscess (friend has also been lame, I think twice, from kicks). Some of the minor niggles might have been from straining something while doing rollbacks in eight inches of mud/slipping on the ice-mud, or they might have been the abscess brewing, or both.)

The other reason I want to get to a firm place of "this horse CANNOT be ridden" from someone who has more authority than me is that it will prevent his owner from eventually thinking "Oh, feesh just didn't have the patience/expertise. Someone else might have better luck!" She is... optimistic to a fault, but pretty good about animals who have firmly crossed the line to "retired," if that makes sense?

 

[ycbm]

I'm sad that you can't find a professional to help you look this owner square in the face and tell her that a lame 15 year old who's never in his life stood up to being worked should never be ridden again, but I'm afraid in your shoes that's exactly what I would be doing. You expect him to fail, I don't understand why you would try. Because someone else might succeed? Let them. Because someone else might ride him and lame him again? You expect to do that anyway, why would you choose to be that person? Nothing, from the information you've given here, would persuade me to get on him.

I have heard that the US/Canada has more of a "sound enough" attitude to lame horses than the UK. From what you describe, I don't think you would have much as trouble finding a vet over here to recommend retirement. I'm sorry you can't find the support that you and he need.
.

 

[feesh]

I have heard that the US/Canada has more of a "sound enough" attitude to lame horses than the UK. From what you describe, I don't think you would have much as trouble finding a vet over here to recommend retirement. I'm sorry you can't find the support that you and he need.

Huh. That's an interesting suggestion. It's definitely not an attitude I feel like I've personally encountered (although I would absolutely believe that it's the case in eg competitive hunter/jumper circles). Re: the vets I dealt with personally (vets #2 & 3), they were both quite firm about making sure I understood that he'd never be competitive, but also were pretty clear that he'd benefit from exercise. Vet #2 was definitely suggesting ridden work, but I do think he's a bit more old-fashioned in his approach that "exercise" either means lunging or riding. Vet #3 was a bit more nuanced, but basically her advice boiled down to "give him the day off if he's ever sore, but the muscles he'll build will likely keep him sounder longer," and that light walk/trot work around the farm would be likely be perfectly fine for him. To be honest I know very little about the larger horse culture either here or over there, outside of my little bubble and what I read on here!

I suppose my approach is also coloured by my experiences with human disability & exercise, where it hugely depends on the disability whether exercise is beneficial or not (and which types are beneficial, too). And my own personal experiences where the main approach is necessarily "try it and see if it makes things better or worse." (With the obvious caveats re: the differences between exercising horses & humans!)

Anyway, he's been separated from his sparring partner, and his abscess seems better, but due to logistics it'll be at least a few more weeks before I can work with him if I do decide to. In the mean time I've got PLENTY to do with horse #2.

(Sorry for disappearing - have been swamped w offline life.)

 

[ThreeFurs]

I got asked last year to do a bit of work with a 'paddock puff' with similar issues to those your describing. The owner of this very nicely put together WB/Tb/Welsh cob, told me straight up he had mild Shivers. Aged 15. In this horse's case noticeable more when picking up feet, backing up, and walking back down trailer ramp. I've another I'm riding for a friend so said thanks but no thanks,, mainly due to time rather than the Shivers.

 

[Orangehorse]

I have had a lot of success with correcting mechanical lameness in horses caused by scar tissues from old injuries. This sounds to me like either a mild case of stringhalt or a mechanical lameness caused by scar tissue/incorrect healing of a damaged tendon or ligament.
I would firstly suggest a lameness workup, and definitely nerve blocking at the very least if a full workup can't be done.
In terms of rectifying the issues, if it IS a mechanical lameness caused by scar tissue then laser, physio, swimming, polework (particularly focusing on lateral polework, so working laterally over poles both raised slightly and on the ground), and a fairly intensive stretching programme will bring it back and rectify the issue.

Feel free to message me any time if you want any more advice or suggestions.

That is very interesting, and rather hopeful.