Spotty Genetics Help Needed Please!

Here is a whole body picture taken recently :)
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Oh bless him, he's gorgeous!

Given that his legs are coloured with no white, I'd be dubious as to whether he carries the tobiano gene - usually (although not always) tobianos have stockings all round. But agreed, the white patch is rather out of keeping with the rest of his varnish roan appearance. It could be a lacey blanket/frosting mark, or it could be due to the Lp gene being acted upon by another gene like sabino.

Whatever colour he technically is though, he looks super! And you both look a very happy pair - especially with a side-saddle :-)
 
Sorry nothing to add, just any excuse to post a pic of my coloured spotty girl

Edited as won't work from phone.I'll post one later or feel free to look at the album called smudge on my profile
 
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Sorry to Hijack OP - your lad actually looks very similar to a friends previous gelding. But if anyone has any ideas why this guy might have gone spotty I'd be interested (born bay tobiano, out of chestnut NF mare and by a coloured stallion) turned this colour about 4!

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Boodles said:
If you knew what I do for a living you would not have written that post!!!!!

And WHEN have I said I am planning to breed right now?

I haven't. I have asked a genetics question about inheritance of particular genes when hypothetically breeding from a horse because the topic interests me.

The biggest contributors to the over-population of the equine world at the moment are NOT 'home breeders' breeding one or two foals in any one human lifetime, it is the breeders who put a stallion in a field with tens of mares, let them get on with it, then don't really give a damn about where those foals end up.

I cannot possibly post my whole life story on here, and certainly have no wish to either, but it would be prudent that, before judging others with misguided opinions, one has all the facts at their disposal, or kindly say nothing at all unless a welfare issue is clearly at stake. Which it cannot possibly be in a hypothetical situation!!!

Good grief, have people got nothing better to do with their time than pick hypothetical faults with others?!
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I don't personally care who you are or what you do for a living, your personal history, experiences etc do not concern me. You alluded tot he fact that you have a number of horses who you won't move on, don't ride and who have a home for life, I don't. Know, maybe you run some kind of sanctuary. If this is the case far from making me judge less harshly, you've done quite the opposite, if indeed your work is involved in anyway with welfare then infact you SHOULD know better.

I have every right to express my opinion and that is, that any kind of breeding (this includes breeding by home breeders, travellers, people who stick a stallion in a field with a load of mares, the racing industry) is currently irresponsible, Reckless, adding to a very real uk equine welfare issue that will not go away while people continue to breed without restraint, conscience and responsibility.

It's all very well saying 'if you knew what I do for a living you wouldn't say that, but to be honest, you don't know me! My viewpoint applies not just to you but to every idiot currently planning to breed horses in the uk and Ireland currently!
 
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Prancer & Vixen said:
I don't personally care who you are or what you do for a living, your personal history, experiences etc do not concern me. You alluded tot he fact that you have a number of horses who you won't move on, don't ride and who have a home for life, I don't. Know, maybe you run some kind of sanctuary. If this is the case far from making me judge less harshly, you've done quite the opposite, if indeed your work is involved in anyway with welfare then infact you SHOULD know better.

I have every right to express my opinion and that is, that any kind of breeding (this includes breeding by home breeders, travellers, people who stick a stallion in a field with a load of mares, the racing industry) is currently irresponsible, Reckless, adding to a very real uk equine welfare issue that will not go away while people continue to breed without restraint, conscience and responsibility.

It's all very well saying 'if you knew what I do for a living you wouldn't say that, but to be honest, you don't know me! My viewpoint applies not just to you but to every idiot currently planning to breed horses in the uk and Ireland currently!
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To clarify. The question I asked is one about colour genetics and what genes potentially may be passed on to any hypothetical foals. THERE ARE NO FOALS!!!!!

If you feel so strongly about people not breeding at this moment in time, perhaps you could compose a letter and send a copy to every breeder you can find to ask them not to breed for a specified period of time which you feel is appropriate. However I suggest that if you refer to them as 'idiots' it may not be the best way forwards.

I did not state 'Don't you know who I am?' as that is simply not my style.

I may have an unspecified number of horses. I may or may not ride them. In fact the two mares in question who HYPOTHETICALLY may or may not have foals in the future have points at Elementary and could go further.

My point about not rehoming horses who I feel it would be wrong to do so with was pointing out that if I take a horse on 'forever' then that's what it means to me. I think if more people were prepared to either keep or euthanase horses who have a dubious future ahead of them it would be far more humane, rather than passing them on regardless.

But for goodness' sake, this has nothing to do with colour genetics of spots, nor the inheritance of them.

If you have opinions about breeding, perhaps you could start another thread to air your views rather than 'shouting' about them in threads where it's not really relevant in real-time terms.
 
Ester - I love madly coloured horses! Bless him! Do you know his parentage? Or his posh name? And perhaps how old he'd be now? I may know of his background.

I'd say he was just starting to varnish out, sometimes it can happen later on. My 4yo was chocolate dun as a foal and only started to varnish out properly at 2-3 years.

I'm sure there are people on here with more knowledge of Appy colours than me though - hence me posting this in the first place :-) .
 
Hi Boodles, generally the colour/genetics experts on here are Faracat or s4sugar (sorry if I got the latter wrong). They might be busy with Christmas though. I wouldn't bite about the other stuff if I were you, it's nobody's business except yours.
 
risky business - thank you about mine, and about the other horses too - of course conformation etc has to come first, but put on top a crazy colour and it makes them so unique :-) . I have solid coloured horses too and love them just the same, but the inheritance of black/bay/chestnut is pretty straightforward and I loved genetics at school - GEEK!!!

doriangrey - thank you for that, I'll keep my fingers crossed they come along and see the thread :-) . Agreed about the other, thank you - although I will usually back things up on my side to clarify what I've put previously, it's pretty much water off a duck's back, but I don't appreciate the tone sometimes and feel there are often better ways to put things :-) .
 
Very interesting thread and some great pictures! Shame some people have hijacked it. The OP isn't responsible for the breeding crisis so it seems unfair to direct any anger you feel at that at the OP.
 
boodles - sire is centyfield centyfor, he's five now - friend bred him. Full sister just skewbald and 2 half siblings she has owned (same sire) were normal too!
 
Thanks Rapidash x. I'm a bit bemused by the mentality of some replies in this thread tbh, I do agree that there are issues which have needed addressing in the equine world, but not simply towards a hypothetical situation in a thread about colour genetics on a forum, there are more efficient and productive ways to do it LOL!

ester - in that case, could he have the condition named after a horse who suddenly started developing white spots many years ago but I forget what it's called...? They're called 'something' spots... There was a horse at a yard down the road from me a few years ago who had it. Were they 'Flycatcher' spots? Some genetic mutation I think.
 
birdcatcher spots ;). I've not seen so many come up on one before and I think it spread a bit quick to be vitiligo which was my other thought.
 
Aww she looks lovely and happy too :-) . Lots of spotty and splodgy horses - they'll take over the world haha!!!

Do you know how she's bred? And what do you do with her? (Apart from dressage, that we can see :-) )
 
Oh gosh, I meant to correct an earlier post I added - in order for a HYPOTHETICAL foal to go on the part-bred register with an Appy society, I believe HYPOTHETICALLY my boy would need to be put to a half Appaloosa mare (not 100% as I mistakenly put yesterday) as the society requires at least one grandparent to be a registered Appaloosa. Not an important point but I don't like leaving stuff writtten down that is wrong :-)
 
Jules, your horse is lovely! OP, nothing wrong with a bit of hypothetical musing. I do it all the time. I just love looking at all these wonderful spotty horses.
 
Boodles said:
Oh gosh, I meant to correct an earlier post I added - in order for a HYPOTHETICAL foal to go on the part-bred register with an Appy society, I believe HYPOTHETICALLY my boy would need to be put to a half Appaloosa mare (not 100% as I mistakenly put yesterday) as the society requires at least one grandparent to be a registered Appaloosa. Not an important point but I don't like leaving stuff writtten down that is wrong :-)
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Not anymore, not with BApS anyway - they will not accept any offspring from a coloured parent, whether the resulting foal is coloured, spotted or solid. I'm not sure why they won't accept solid or spotty if they tested negative for tobiano...
Your boy looks lovely, very colourful!
 
Thanks for the nice comments about my girl.

She was bred in Poland and imported to the UK as a youngster. Her (Polish) passport states that she and all her parents and grandparents are Malpolski which is a Polish Warmblood breed. However, they are supposed to be solid coloured and Smudge clearly isn't.

I managed to find a couple of pictures of her grandad and great grandad online and they were both coloured, but I don't know where the spots come from.

We do a bit of everything - dressage and jumping (just small local shows), hacking, fun rides etc. Here are a couple more pictures of my princess...

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On a fun ride (sorry I've posted this one before) and yes I know she took off a bit early but she was a bit over excited by jumping such a big log LOL


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This shows her spotty bum off nicely

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This one shows her freckly nose quite well

I've had her for about 2 and a half years and she has just turned 10. She is quite intelligent and very stubborn. She is no trouble to handle but can be a pig or an angel to ride depending on her mood, but she is a real character and I wouldn't swap her for the world :)
 
Aww JulesRules, she's clearly very special :-) .

Regandal and teabiscuit (love the name!) - totally agree :-)

whirlwindhorses - that's good to know :-) . I have no drive to even try to register with BApS or ApHC, but I still like to know stuff LOL! And thank you about my boy - think I've come across your website with some lovely and loudly marked horses on there :-) .

Just would be great to know if the black spots he has are likely or unlikely to come from the PATN gene. Are you a member of The Appaloosa Project? I think the most up-to-date research is on there...
 
Boodles said:
To clarify. The question I asked is one about colour genetics and what genes potentially may be passed on to any hypothetical foals. THERE ARE NO FOALS!!!!!

If you feel so strongly about people not breeding at this moment in time, perhaps you could compose a letter and send a copy to every breeder you can find to ask them not to breed for a specified period of time which you feel is appropriate. However I suggest that if you refer to them as 'idiots' it may not be the best way forwards.

I did not state 'Don't you know who I am?' as that is simply not my style.

I may have an unspecified number of horses. I may or may not ride them. In fact the two mares in question who HYPOTHETICALLY may or may not have foals in the future have points at Elementary and could go further.

My point about not rehoming horses who I feel it would be wrong to do so with was pointing out that if I take a horse on 'forever' then that's what it means to me. I think if more people were prepared to either keep or euthanase horses who have a dubious future ahead of them it would be far more humane, rather than passing them on regardless.

But for goodness' sake, this has nothing to do with colour genetics of spots, nor the inheritance of them.

If you have opinions about breeding, perhaps you could start another thread to air your views rather than 'shouting' about them in threads where it's not really relevant in real-time terms.
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In actual fact you did say the following...

he is a stallion and I intend to use him on two of my mares,

And you also said

If you knew what I do for a living you would not have written that post.

I have every right to voice my opinion whenever and wherever I choose, which I do. Please do not think that I have singled you out, I have not, this is something I express whenever I get the opportunity, because I do feel strongly about it, and yes, so strongly that I have started a thread about it before. Finally, whatever you do for a living has no bearing on my opinion, it is an opinion that I hold with regards to all horse owners that are currently breeding or considering doing so within the uk. I do not, like some wear rose tinted glasses, neither do I sugar coat things. My view is that in the current situation (which will take a long time to rectify) to breed more horses is idiotic.

Finally, I never said there were any foals as yet, I also did not judge you for riding them or not riding them. I don't disagree with your principals of keeping horses, and providing a forever home if at all practical, for that you should be commended, I do however disagree with adding to the current equine population.

I'm perfectly within my rights to express my view wherever I see fit.
 
Rapidash said:
Very interesting thread and some great pictures! Shame some people have hijacked it. The OP isn't responsible for the breeding crisis so it seems unfair to direct any anger you feel at that at the OP.
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The entire equine community is responsible for the sodding breeding crisis, I am not directing anger at the op, I'm expressing an opinion. It's time that us 'horse owners' who profess to love horses step up and start curbing our behaviour with regards to breeding, or do you think we should as a 'equine community' continue on with the attitude that we love horses so much we just had to breed more and more so that they could be culled? How respectful and loving is that to our equine friends?
 
In case I come across as a hypocrite...

Yes, I do intend to breed from my stallion with my two mares at some point in the future. Otherwise he would've been gelded.

The current market/breeding situation has no bearing on that because if they do not take, I shan't be going out to buy horses to put in those hypothetical foals' places.

I was incredulous (note incredulous, not offended or upset, though I imagine others may've been at the tirade if it were directed towards them) at your initial response. You had, and still have, no real knowledge of the ethics behind what I do for a living, nor the good or bad I do in this world. I believe that the good we do in a situation, large or small, should outweigh the neutrality or negativity we do to that same situation. If we can do that, then I believe we can sleep soundly at night.

We are only on this planet for a relatively short period of time in the grand scale of things. I think we deserve to allow ourselves to do things which, while still being ethical, make us happy from time to time.

If you have a re-read of your earlier couple of posts you may well see how unreasonable you sounded (like saying that a person breeding one or two foals ever was being irresponsible and that they were the biggest cause to the over-population issues in the equine world at the moment) and you had made many incorrect assumptions - in my experience, laying the law down to people, or putting opinions across aggressively, is the best way to get their backs up. And if your true drive (rather than 'having a go') was to try to help our equine population then this really isn't the way to go about it.

Finally, if everyone stops breeding for a period of time, in a few years time there will be no youngsters to bring on, so the older horses left will potentially have more strain put on them to fill the voids that younger horses would, and people will see that their is a niche in the market for younger horses. People will start churning them out - many who lack the good conformation/etc which we need in a horse who is to have a comfortable life - and their value will quickly plummet again, and we will find ourselves in a similar situation to the one we have now. Peaks and troughs. And that is often found in any situation of an eco-system where there is a fluctuating balance between life and death. Although that is usually governed by predators and natural causes for fluctuations in birth and death rates, and not demand by humans. So far more sensible for suitable horses to still be being produced now, albeit at much lower numbers than recently.

I'm hoping that bringing this post back up to the top might catch the eye of some who are interested or have knowledge of SPOTTY GENETICS?!
 
Boodles said:
In case I come across as a hypocrite...

Yes, I do intend to breed from my stallion with my two mares at some point in the future. Otherwise he would've been gelded.

The current market/breeding situation has no bearing on that because if they do not take, I shan't be going out to buy horses to put in those hypothetical foals' places.

I was incredulous (note incredulous, not offended or upset, though I imagine others may've been at the tirade if it were directed towards them) at your initial response. You had, and still have, no real knowledge of the ethics behind what I do for a living, nor the good or bad I do in this world. I believe that the good we do in a situation, large or small, should outweigh the neutrality or negativity we do to that same situation. If we can do that, then I believe we can sleep soundly at night.

We are only on this planet for a relatively short period of time in the grand scale of things. I think we deserve to allow ourselves to do things which, while still being ethical, make us happy from time to time.

If you have a re-read of your earlier couple of posts you may well see how unreasonable you sounded (like saying that a person breeding one or two foals ever was being irresponsible and that they were the biggest cause to the over-population issues in the equine world at the moment) and you had made many incorrect assumptions - in my experience, laying the law down to people, or putting opinions across aggressively, is the best way to get their backs up. And if your true drive (rather than 'having a go') was to try to help our equine population then this really isn't the way to go about it.

Finally, if everyone stops breeding for a period of time, in a few years time there will be no youngsters to bring on, so the older horses left will potentially have more strain put on them to fill the voids that younger horses would, and people will see that their is a niche in the market for younger horses. People will start churning them out - many who lack the good conformation/etc which we need in a horse who is to have a comfortable life - and their value will quickly plummet again, and we will find ourselves in a similar situation to the one we have now. Peaks and troughs. And that is often found in any situation of an eco-system where there is a fluctuating balance between life and death. Although that is usually governed by predators and natural causes for fluctuations in birth and death rates, and not demand by humans. So far more sensible for suitable horses to still be being produced now, albeit at much lower numbers than recently.

I'm hoping that bringing this post back up to the top might catch the eye of some who are interested or have knowledge of SPOTTY GENETICS?!
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If I am unreasonable for saying anyone who breeds or considers breeding currently is irresponsible fine, I can deal with that, I still stand by it.

As I said, no matter what your ethics, what you do for a living, what you intend to do with your unproven stallions offspring, I still argue you are irresponsible. People who try and justify their irresponsible actions by believing their responsible actions balance them out are misguided in my opinion.

My views and opinions will not stop you adding to the current equine population, you will continue to breed, because you have an unproven spotty pony with the grey gene which will produce, ponies which will probably turn grey and have no real reason for being on this planet other than their sire was unproven mediocre in conformation and once sported pretty spots on his body. So really spotty genetics have no bearing on your offspring do they?

You seem a very well grounded, responsible and sensible individual, crack on with that.

And yes, you do come across as a hypocrite, and yes, two foals do make a difference, two foals do add to the problem, and yes, I'm sure every other individual out there tells themselves the same old codswallop that you tell yourself, so they do not feel they are adding to the problem. Two more horses are two more horses, period!

Ethics wise, you could kill horses for a living, run a sanctuary, be a vet, be a breeder, I don't care, every person in the equine world is just as responsible as the next as far as I am concerned.

Yes, I also believe that the argument that we are only on this planet for a short while and so should do what makes us happy is a selfish one. So, what you are saying in essence is that you couldn't care less about the long term effects of your decisions or actions. I personally find that attitude abhorrent, and it hardly screams of love and respect for horses does it?
 
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I also see the potential pitfalls with just stopping breeding and not putting other measures in place, although currently I would argue that the over breeding is already producing horses with poor conformation and other defects, I don't see that a halt in breeding is all that is needed. I believe that some form of breeding protocols and licences are needed to regulate the equine industry in feh future, to ensure that stock is bred from good quality and breeding, that people do not breed for the sake of breeding, or to make a quick buck. As I say, the entire equine community needs to take responsibility and to change its ways. Although, I suspect as this thread illustrates, there will always be those who think they know better, who think one or two more won't hurt. Sadly and currently, there are so many people like that that the one or two added up run to thousands a year.
 
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