Spotty Genetics Help Needed Please!

Assumptions again - I've never bred a horse in my life!!!

I bought one mare unknowingly in foal so technically I am his 'breeder' (because the owner of a horse when she foals is the breeder of that foal for legal reasons) but that's it!

And my 4yo doesn't carry the grey gene, he can't genetically either. He carries the Lp gene which, if you'll read any subject matter on the Lp gene codes for varnish roan, which is totally different to the grey gene.

You are very good at twisting and extenuating to the point of ridicule what people have said - a possible new career in journalism or politics for you?!
 
Why are you attacking one individual because there is an equine crises over the whole of the globe? I do feel that if a responsible owner wants to breed for themselves then why not - they are hardly adding to the overpopulation just because there are many other unwanted equines out there. Why on earth should they be forced to purchase another badly bred or not even badly bred but not fit for their purpose horse just because of your opinion. Good idea, let's all stop any type of breeding and perhaps rehome the amount of dross that any amount of good intentions won't stop anyway. As for his conformation, he looks a nice type to me and I think that was uncalled for - what does it matter what his competition record is if he is looked after and provided for?

Not directed to the OP!
 
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Boodles said:
Assumptions again - I've never bred a horse in my life!!!

I bought one mare unknowingly in foal so technically I am his 'breeder' (because the owner of a horse when she foals is the breeder of that foal for legal reasons) but that's it!

And my 4yo doesn't carry the grey gene, he can't genetically either. He carries the Lp gene which, if you'll read any subject matter on the Lp gene codes for varnish roan, which is totally different to the grey gene.

You are very good at twisting and extenuating to the point of ridicule what people have said - a possible new career in journalism or politics for you?!
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At absolutely no point whatsoever, did it accuse you of already having bred a foal. On the subject of buying a mare in foal, some would call that a happy coincidence, others not so much, but that can hardly be considered your fault or doing. Choosing to breed foals from your youngster is something quite the opposite. I do not twist or extenuate, I simply do not sugar coat, neither do I act the ostrich and try to persuade myself that the actions of one individual are not Imporrtant. This entire equine crisis was caused by the collective actions of individuals, believe me, if the situation were different and the crisis was not so severe, my opinions would not be so harsh, but the fact is we do find ourselves in this situation, and any addition to the population is just one horse too many currently. I just do not see why people can read the news and see horses being culled and sit looking out of their window planning to bring more foals into the world. It just beggars belief
 
doriangrey said:
Why are you attacking one individual because there is an equine crises over the whole of the globe? I do feel that if a responsible owner wants to breed for themselves then why not - they are hardly adding to the overpopulation just because there are many other unwanted equines out there. Why on earth should they be forced to purchase another badly bred or not even badly bred but not fit for their purpose horse just because of your opinion. Good idea, let's all stop any type of breeding and perhaps rehome the amount of dross that any amount of good intentions won't stop anyway. As for his conformation, he looks a nice type to me and I think that was uncalled for - what does it matter what his competition record is if he is looked after and provided for?
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DG, I've voiced this opinion on many a thread. Not just this one. I neither advised op to buy a badly bred or not fit for purpose horse, surely you are not naive enough to think that they are the only horse out there at the moment? That's the point, there are good quality horses out there needing homes, foals without purchasers, good horses being left At the sales because there are no buyers. I never said the 'dross' as you call them should be re homed, It's incredibly sad but in my heart I believe we have reached a point where a significant number of these horses in the UK will have to be and should be culled, to rectify the problem that overzealous breeding has caused. Furthermore, I didn't say he has bad conformation, I said it was mediocre, it's average. I call a spade a spade. He is nothing spectacular. What do you want me to do? Lie? I don't even sugar coat my own horses, I'm hardly going to do it for someone else's.

I'm allowed to judge and have opinions on people's deliberate blindness/ignorance to the situation, instead of being responsible as owners we are getting to the point where the authorities are going to be the ones who step in and save the day for the equine population because we (who profess to love horses)couldn't be bothered.
 
To be fair, horses have been being culled for many years and will continue to be. As will many other animals. It is just because things are in the news at the moment that so many people are assuming it's a new happening. I am not saying this is a good thing, merely stating a fact.

Thank you doriangrey x. My boy does actually have a competition record and received a BEF Futurity grading as a 3yo, but I don't believe in doing too much too soon so he's only lightly started his ridden career. Agreed though, it really isn't of any bearing to the reason for my posting this thread in the first place.

Now what WAS that reason...?!
 
Boodles said:
My grasp of the English language tells me that for someone to CONTINUE to do something, they must already have done that same something at least once, although generally the word refers to a repeated practise.
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Ok, sorry you will continue on with your PLAN to breed...

Satisfied?
 
P&V - I'll re-write what I've already written once - regardless of whether or not I put my mares in foal and whether or not they take, I wouldn't be going out to buy or even take on for free two foals or adults in their place. The two things are simply mutually exclusive and have no bearing on each other.
 
Boodles said:
P&V - I'll re-write what I've already written once - regardless of whether or not I put my mares in foal and whether or not they take, I wouldn't be going out to buy or even take on for free two foals or adults in their place. The two things are simply mutually exclusive and have no bearing on each other.
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Not sure I understand your need to repeat that sentiment, my last post regarding dross, vs good quality horses was in response to DG's post, not yours. Please understand, if circumstances were different, and the horses weren't facing such a threat currently, my views would not be so strong. I do understand the draw of having ones own youngsters, especially if one does intend to keep them, but my opinion under the circumstances we find ourselves in is very much set, however it is just that... My opinion.
 
Prancer & Vixen said:
DG, I've voiced this opinion on many a thread. Not just this one. I neither advised op to buy a badly bred or not fit for purpose horse, surely you are not naive enough to think that they are the only horse out there at the moment? That's the point, there are good quality horses out there needing homes, foals without purchasers, good horses being left At the sales because there are no buyers. I never said the 'dross' as you call them should be re homed, It's incredibly sad but in my heart I believe we have reached a point where a significant number of these horses in the UK will have to be and should be culled, to rectify the problem that overzealous breeding has caused. Furthermore, I didn't say he has bad conformation, I said it was mediocre, it's average. I call a spade a spade. He is nothing spectacular. What do you want me to do? Lie? I don't even sugar coat my own horses, I'm hardly going to do it for someone else's.

I'm allowed to judge and have opinions on people's deliberate blindness/ignorance to the situation, instead of being responsible as owners we are getting to the point where the authorities are going to be the ones who step in and save the day for the equine population because we (who profess to love horses)couldn't be bothered.
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I get it, I do and I understand why you feel so strongly I feel strongly about it too. But I think you are having a go at the wrong type of person who has clearly stated she'll be giving her equines a home for life. Hell, I live in Ireland and you know what's happened over here in the last few weeks. I've bought my own pony for almost nothing and I was looking at full bred connies also going for nothing, seriously well bred connemara foals for about 300 euro and this is not people like the OP who would like to keep their own homebreds, but because agriculture here is 99% pasture and for all the excellent, responsible breeders .. you know the scenario.
 
Yes Faracat, please don't run away!!!

I suspect there isn't an answer yet as there's still much research to be done regarding spotty genetics, but it's just those black spots which have me questioning whether he could have some form of a PATN gene as well as Lp...
 
I am still a little bemused by some-one who is so interested in colour gentics considering breeding from a horse which has mixed breeding and is not registerable with any breed society.It is also my opinion that only those stallions with outstanding conformation should father the next generation of horses.
 
I agree, the mare should also be of the best quality of her type, otherwise only poor quality animals are produced, it would be my preference for both parents to be registered.
 
He doesn't have particularly mixed breeding, he's half NF and registered with the breed society as such, as well as being 1/4 Appaloosa and 1/4 coloured native-type pony (here I do draw a blank sadly), and tbh as long as he can be passported, that's the only legal requirement.

Colour genetics don't really have anything to do with anything apart from what genes a horse may potentially pass on and I enjoy the science behind that - I'm not driven by being able to register with any breed society or anything like that. It may be a driving force for some people, but not for all.

As for conformation, I think it depends on what 'job' a horse is to be required to do. If the horse is required to compete at a high level then yes, near-perfect conformation can be ideal to aid ease of performance and long-term soundness, although there are plenty of 'freak' horses with less-than-ideal conformation performing at good levels in various sports - and remaining sound. If a horse is required to be a 'pet' (and I'm not saying that's what my horses do before anyone jumps on that LOL!) then as long as the horse's conformation is sufficient to allow it to live a pain-free existence while being a horse, then horses-for-courses.

To be honest I think most people's requirements fall somewhere within this range - and with amazing conformation often comes amazing paces and sometimes (not always) quirky temperaments, and not all riders need, want or are capable of riding that sort of horse.

For most people, temperament is more important than how flashy the horse's paces are anyway, if you can't train it, you can't ride it.

If a horse is to stand at public stud, or potentially to sire horses who are offered for sale to a particular market, then yes, he should be capable of siring horses of that type.

But I'm not suggesting that's what I want to do, this is a thread about COLOUR GENETICS because I like the science behind it!!!!!
 
Just picking up on the registered thing - how many breed societies require horses to undergo evaluation before being registered? I'm not sure many do? Although I'm happy to be corrected.

And the stallion licensing I have experience of is just a basic veterinary examination to determine things like soundness, height (if a breed requirement), whether both testicles have dropped, wind, limb, heart and eyes - so really, not much more than a 2-stage vetting.

Unless all the breed societies inspect every horse before it's licensed, then hypothetically, horses could be passed just because their sire and dam are in a particular studbook, regardless of the conformation that the horse in question has. So just because a horse is registered, it doesn't mean it's a good one!

Of course there are stallion and mare gradings, but not every (?many) breed or type society(ies) insists on these before registering a horse?
 
A horse doesn't need to have good conformation or be eligible to register with a breed society to be a good and useful horse...
My pony is neither (in fact he wasn't even passported) but he is brilliant and suits me perfectly and I am very glad someone once did breed him :)
There are so many odd looking, mixed breeds that aren't capable of much but are absolutely perfect family ponies and so trustworthy and stay with the family until the day they die and are very loved (we have one of those too). Surely there's nothing wrong with that and that's what the OP sounds like she wants to have - a much loved member of the family who is there to stay. If she has anything at all which she never has said for definite anyway I don't think.
I just don't think anyone else should throw their opinion so strongly at her.
The wor;d is hugely over-populated on the human side of things as well. Out of interest Prancer and Vixen do you think we should all stop having babies too? ;)
Btw I have never had either foals or babies in case you think I am a breeder or mother of many :P
 
LP/Patn is really complicated - I'm still trying to understand it all. Everything seems to interact with them, eg the base colour (EE, Ee or ee) makes a difference and other genes also have an effect. For example, sabino seems to cause smaller spots, so if a horse has really, really big spots, it's not got sabino. Then agouti can enhance the pattern, with homozygous agouti's being more enhanced than heterozygous agouti's. Splash increases the area of white. I haven't read anything about Tobiano enhancing appy markings though.

Boodles said:
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This is the interesting photo. Nearly all of the white is due to Tobiano.

When you compare to this photo

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you can see how much he's varnish roaned out.

Do you have a foal photo showing his pattern before he varnished out at all? This would be really helpful to work out his PATN status.
 
Agree Spuddles, thank you!

Faracat, that's great, thank you too x. Really interesting about the sabino - as it creates white itself (I think?) I'd sort of assumed it would enhance the white of other genes too... Must not assume stuff!

Agreed that most of his initial white is due to tobiano - his foal pictures are from when he was fluffy so not great, but may be of help... I'm taking it that his base colour is the single dilute version of seal brown (or dark bay as I think some call it) which I used to refer to years ago as chocolate dun, although that's not technically correct, it'd be chocolate buckskin if chocolate anything!

Just with his winter foal coat colour being fairly dark, it's tricky to see the black spots as the light wasn't good (although I can confirm they were there!). It's only the black spots which have made me ponder if he's got more than just the Lp gene.

This photo's from before I bought him so he was about 6-7 months I think (not much non-tobiano white on this side but there are some black spots):

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Same age:

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Very interesting. The off side photo would make me think that he is negative for PATN. The near side photo is inconclusive. If he was born with that tiny amount of non tobiano white, it could indicate PATN, but it could be early varnishing.

PS, seal brown and dark bay are not the same. ;)

PPS, has he been tested for cream?
 
Ooh, are they not? OOPS! Always glad to be corrected, I like learning stuff :-) . What's the difference? Am I right in understanding that a form of the Agouti gene (At) is responsible for dark bay as it doesn't banish the black so far as regular A does? And then my understanding is that there's A+ which codes for wild-type bay where the black is pushed further down the extremities to create what looks like black socks? And the dominance goes from dominant to less dominant: A+, A, At, no A?

He hasn't been tested for anything, it's so hard to see from his pictures and when I look at them I always wonder if he could be bay, but in real life, I would say buckskin without doubt. I've never really had a reason for testing him as have had no reason to prove anything (if he were super duper and to stand at stud it'd be different) and colour's secondary to other things on my list, but am just always interested to know more and musing quietly away...

And that's exactly where I'm at with the PATN gene! Have actually just had an answer back from a FB group on colour genetics and apparently Lp CAN cause black spots, but I'm just not convinced about him not having a PATN gene.
 
Spuddles said:
A horse doesn't need to have good conformation or be eligible to register with a breed society to be a good and useful horse...
My pony is neither (in fact he wasn't even passported) but he is brilliant and suits me perfectly and I am very glad someone once did breed him :)
There are so many odd looking, mixed breeds that aren't capable of much but are absolutely perfect family ponies and so trustworthy and stay with the family until the day they die and are very loved (we have one of those too). Surely there's nothing wrong with that and that's what the OP sounds like she wants to have - a much loved member of the family who is there to stay. If she has anything at all which she never has said for definite anyway I don't think.
I just don't think anyone else should throw their opinion so strongly at her.
The wor;d is hugely over-populated on the human side of things as well. Out of interest Prancer and Vixen do you think we should all stop having babies too? ;)
Btw I have never had either foals or babies in case you think I am a breeder or mother of many :P
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Yes actually, I do think we should stop popping out babies as we do. I have no intention to bring a child into a world where in its lifetime the human population will reach critical levels. Just look at the world health organisation population predictions, with our increased lifespan, better medicine, and continual breeding, the future for the race of humans is incredibly scary.
 
Next to his buddy who was a Fjord x Haflinger filly just after I'd bought him at about 7 months old... Hopefully it shows the buckskin-ness of his nose that I see!

HarleyandLillyinStable_zpse62f017e.jpg
 
Boodles said:
Ooh, are they not? OOPS! Always glad to be corrected, I like learning stuff :-) . What's the difference?

This site is nice and clear with lots of photos. :)
http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/ecg_basics2.html This link shows agouti and the difference between A, At and A+.

He hasn't been tested for anything, it's so hard to see from his pictures and when I look at them I always wonder if he could be bay, but in real life, I would say buckskin without doubt.

LP can make black pigment look brown. He doesn't look buckskin to me, but sooty adds black pigment, so that's a possibility, if he does have cream. Does his sire carry cream? If his dam is seal brown (IIRC) she doesn't.

And that's exactly where I'm at with the PATN gene! Have actually just had an answer back from a FB group on colour genetics and apparently Lp CAN cause black spots, but I'm just not convinced about him not having a PATN gene.
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Yes, this photo shows a horse negative for PATN, but the spots will become more visible as the horse varnishes.
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Thank you, will look at link when brain will take it in - hopefully tomorrow!

Sire is a buckskin near-leopard spot minimal tobiano(pic at top of page 2 and third post down on page 3 of this GIANT thread!). Dam is what I'd always've called a dark bay.

I'd definately be happy to class that pic as Lp only (gold star to me for that then, I've got something right LOL!) just mine doesn't fit so cleanly into the box as he has had a white lacey bit and black spots since he was a baby.

Perhaps the best way to find out would be to breed about 100 foals and see what colours they all come out... #Boodles starts to stir because she's frustrated there's no simple answer to her question and it seems to be uncovering MORE questions which she doesn't know the answer to LOL#
 
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