Spotty Genetics Help Needed Please!

My 4yo's dam if it helps? Thank you so much for all your replies x.

StellasucklingHarley_zpsf04c9822.jpg
 
Faracat said:
Yes, dam is seal brown. He looks to have been born with the small frosted blanket which indicates PATN.
Click to expand...


Woohoo twice!!!

Agreed about the near-leopard-ness too - third woohoo!!! (Tired now, sense and maturity goes out the window!)


But, from my meagre understanding, if a horse has over 60% body area at birth either white or spotty, that's thought to come from PATN1 in some form isn't it? And I really do mean that as a genuine question, hope it's come over like that x.

My 4yo's sire (the buckskin near-leopard minimal tobiano) has produced at least one totally leopard-at-birth foal from a registered NF mare. So shouldn't he theoretically have had PATN1 in order to pass it on in the first place, even if he's only a near-leopard himself?

I love spotted genetics as there are so many variables, but in a few years time when I look back and realise how much I don't know now, I shall curse myself I'm sure!
 
My understanding was that horses with LP lp and PATN1 were leopard spots and horse with LP LP and PATN1 were few spots.

ETA - this near few spot does not have PATN1

957501309.jpg
 
Last edited:
Boodles said:
Aww JulesRules, she's clearly very special :-) .

Regandal and teabiscuit (love the name!) - totally agree :-)

whirlwindhorses - that's good to know :-) . I have no drive to even try to register with BApS or ApHC, but I still like to know stuff LOL! And thank you about my boy - think I've come across your website with some lovely and loudly marked horses on there :-) .

Just would be great to know if the black spots he has are likely or unlikely to come from the PATN gene. Are you a member of The Appaloosa Project? I think the most up-to-date research is on there...
Click to expand...

I'm not a member of the appaloosa project sorry. I also don't know what the different appaloosa genes are. Someone did tell me what my stallion was but i can't remember it. He is a snowcap and proven 100% homozygous for spotted pattern to solid mares. That means he has only ever sired blanket/leopard foals from over fifty solid mostly non appaloosa mares. It doesn't matter what colour the mare is - chestnut, black, bay, brown, true dun, buckskin, grey all those colours can produce loud markings. What helps (with my stallion anyway) is if the mare carries a white pattern gene of some sort but i don't know what it is. Mares with white hairs in their coats or manes/tails, black hooves with slightly lighter stripes on them produce the loudest colours from him. From mares with sabino markings he tends to produce minimal blanket spots (small white blanket with a few spots on it) that quickly varnish out and eventually look leopards. Although i have two grey mares with sabino markings who have both produced nr leopard/leopard foals, one has had three (two bay leopards don't know whether the third was bay or grey) and the other a bay/grey loud leopard and a bay nr leopard.
I used to have a reddun nr leopard stallion, from his first crop of nine foals one was born with a white lacey blanket and one with characteristics that eventually developed a few spots, the rest stayed solid, half of them were dun.
 
Sorry quick post - whirlwindhorses am not ignoring you just need to cook tea and it'll take a while to reply LOL!

spotty_pony - have you put a picure of your boy already on this thread? Just it's SOOOOO long now lol! I'm happy to say what I know if you can put a picture up, but am sure there are others who know more!
 
Boodles said:
Thank you, will look at link when brain will take it in - hopefully tomorrow!

Sire is a buckskin near-leopard spot minimal tobiano(pic at top of page 2 and third post down on page 3 of this GIANT thread!). Dam is what I'd always've called a dark bay.

I'd definately be happy to class that pic as Lp only (gold star to me for that then, I've got something right LOL!) just mine doesn't fit so cleanly into the box as he has had a white lacey bit and black spots since he was a baby.

Perhaps the best way to find out would be to breed about 100 foals and see what colours they all come out... #Boodles starts to stir because she's frustrated there's no simple answer to her question and it seems to be uncovering MORE questions which she doesn't know the answer to LOL#
Click to expand...

If he had the spots and white lacey blanket when he was born then he was/is a blanket spot with varnish. I will find a pic of one of my minimal blanket spots with varnish.
 
Last edited:
Is that your stallion jumping in your sig? He looks more like a fewspot to me rather than a snowcap? I think I'm right in saying that a snowcap's effectively a blanket spot without the black spots? Both homozygous for Lp, but one codes for leopard (the true few spot) and one codes for blanket spot (the true snowcap). I say 'true' because sometimes things can be decieving!

He does look to throw such lovely and loudly marked foals - very jealous!

I'm thrilled that the general opinion from 'those what know' (!) is that my boy does carry both the Lp and PATN genes - it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, I love him dearly no matter what, but I do enjoy colour genetics and am glad I wasn't being misled by his markings, however minimal they are.

I wonder if the PATN gene is more like tobiano in that it simply codes for a white overlay of the coat and there are other genes at work determining the size and shape of those white areas? Who knows!
 
Boodles said:
Is that your stallion jumping in your sig? He looks more like a fewspot to me rather than a snowcap? I think I'm right in saying that a snowcap's effectively a blanket spot without the black spots? Both homozygous for Lp, but one codes for leopard (the true few spot) and one codes for blanket spot (the true snowcap). I say 'true' because sometimes things can be decieving!

He does look to throw such lovely and loudly marked foals - very jealous!

I'm thrilled that the general opinion from 'those what know' (!) is that my boy does carry both the Lp and PATN genes - it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, I love him dearly no matter what, but I do enjoy colour genetics and am glad I wasn't being misled by his markings, however minimal they are.

I wonder if the PATN gene is more like tobiano in that it simply codes for a white overlay of the coat and there are other genes at work determining the size and shape of those white areas? Who knows!
Click to expand...


He is a fully extended snowcap. Fewspots are totally white except for a few bay (or whatever base colour they are) spots.
Here is a better photo of him in his summer coat.

00aaaSkyhawkAA.JPG
 
According to the Appaloosa project, mine is homozygous for PATN1. He is a loud leopard spot, but from the age of 2, half of his spots became mottled - like small white spots appeared in his black spots. The other half of his spots remained solid. These are called mouldy spots in the Appaloosa project and seem pretty rare. Through studying markings of offspring from stallions with them it seems they are homozygous for PATN1.
 
Ah OK, apologies - I think I can see now that in his jumping picture he has white boots on? Sneaky LOL!!!

Has he ever produced an absolute leopard spot?

Fat_Pony (but I bet yours isn't LOL!) - do you have a picture of your boy? 'Mouldy spots' LOL!!!
 
Boodles said:
Ah OK, apologies - I think I can see now that in his jumping picture he has white boots on? Sneaky LOL!!!

Has he ever produced an absolute leopard spot?

Fat_Pony (but I bet yours isn't LOL!) - do you have a picture of your boy? 'Mouldy spots' LOL!!!
Click to expand...

Yes a few leopards and lots of nr leopards. I will find some pics tomorrow. And yes well spotted he has white boots on in that pic! If you look at his neck in the other pic you can see white spots in the mottled hair.
KarynK would be the person to ask about the spotty genes.
 
Boodles said:
Ah OK, apologies - I think I can see now that in his jumping picture he has white boots on? Sneaky LOL!!!

Has he ever produced an absolute leopard spot?

Fat_Pony (but I bet yours isn't LOL!) - do you have a picture of your boy? 'Mouldy spots' LOL!!!
Click to expand...

I asked the person again who told me what my stallion was and he is LP/LP PATN1/PATN1.
So if your boy is a blanket then i think that makes him LP/lp PATN1/patn1 but i might be wrong! and then you also have tobiano and cream genes too.
Here are a few pics of some of his leopards and near leopards,

ZZZzBrownhawk4.JPG



ZZZZZFBbrownhawk.JPG



SilverhawkSept29th.JPG



Eastercolt12.JPG



08LeoNov1.JPG




08fronfarmapache.JPG




00aaaMorganAug.JPG




Near leopards



ZZzzFirehawkAug6thwalk.JPG




00kimcolt11thapril.JPG




ZZZzzNighthawkSept9th.JPG




00aaaaLadyhawkMay8th.JPG




Ares.JPG




A near leopard with mis-marks.



00aaDotty0909a.JPG




her other side



00aaDottyQQ1.JPG
 
Wow, I have never really had any interest in spotties!
This thread has completely changed my mind. Seriously fascinating stuff guys (although not understanding much of the genetics without really big chart diagrams).
Exquisite horses you have their Whirlwind!
 
I saw a really simple chart with the basics on - I'll try to find it.

Here it is

NC = Non Characteristic/solid
CO = Characteristics Only/Varnish Roan

talkingmongo0seLPchart.png


^Made by Threnody from colorgenetics.
 
Awesome pics!!! That's interesting to know that's he's sired full leopards because my 4yo's sire is only a near-leopard himself but has sired full leopards from solid mares (who I suspect have no PATN genes themselves although could be wrong).

Thanks so much for the chart Faracat - what's the current thinking for PATN2? I thought it had been dismissed because of lack of proof for it? I suppose withou having a test for PATN it's impossible to say because theoretically a louder-than-the-sire/dam's PATN gene may be hidden in a non Lp other parent, but I do wonder if the PATN gene is like Tobiano - PATN itself codes for the white colour and other genes determine how large an area it covers and what shape it is - just like Tobiano on its own codes for solid patches of white but not the spread of them?

My 4yo's sire has sired a variety of leopards, near-leopards, lacey blankets (and Lp and non-Lp but they're not relevant to the PATN gene in this point so much) so I guess he could carry more than one PATN gene - but he has never (to the best of my knowledge) sired a foal who had a white blanket with black spots at birth, and to the best of my knowledge none have spotted out to look like a 'normal' blanket spot either. Could just be coincidence and the non-Lp horses he's sired WOULD have exhibited the classic blanket-spot pattern if they'd had the Lp gene to allow it to be shown, but my point is that if he carries the theoretical PATN2 gene then surely he would've passed it to approx half his foals, approx half would've had the Lp gene too, so approx 25% would've had a blanket spot pattern? (Theoretically he has to carry PATN2 if we're going by that model because he has produced spotteds who have a white pattern at birth (so suspected to not be due to Lp) which doesn't cover their whole body like a leopard.)

I suppose what I'm getting at is that in this case, my hypothetical model of PATN as being similar to Tobiano in that it just codes for white and other genes affect the black spots and area of cover of the white areas holds truer than PATN1 and PATN2?

Obviously I'm looking at just one line though and appreciate there are tons more out there - my boy's line could have an odd variation to the rule!!!

Now I shall probably re-read this and find it makes no sense as I'm only thinking out loud LOL!!!


Really glad this thread's proving to be of interest to so many - I find colour genetics fascinating too :-)
 
Last edited:
Hi Bootles!
Happily finished drooling over Murphy pics and purely wanted to add that as a 'backyard breeder' myself (bred one to replace one, and wouldn't swop him for the world) I've thoroughly loved having him from planning stages to getting into his first riddens. I know you've had the boys from a young age, but there's something a little different when you've done it yourself all the way through. So if you do- and from what I've seen on Hamlets, you're more than capable of bringing well adjusted, useful horses up- enjoy every step... It goes by so quickly!

I know nothing about spots...!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top