Spotty Genetics Help Needed Please!

Boodles said:
Awesome pics!!! That's interesting to know that's he's sired full leopards because my 4yo's sire is only a near-leopard himself but has sired full leopards from solid mares (who I suspect have no PATN genes themselves although could be wrong).

Thanks so much for the chart Faracat - what's the current thinking for PATN2? I thought it had been dismissed because of lack of proof for it? I suppose withou having a test for PATN it's impossible to say because theoretically a louder-than-the-sire/dam's PATN gene may be hidden in a non Lp other parent, but I do wonder if the PATN gene is like Tobiano - PATN itself codes for the white colour and other genes determine how large an area it covers and what shape it is - just like Tobiano on its own codes for solid patches of white but not the spread of them?

My 4yo's sire has sired a variety of leopards, near-leopards, lacey blankets (and Lp and non-Lp but they're not relevant to the PATN gene in this point so much) so I guess he could carry more than one PATN gene - but he has never (to the best of my knowledge) sired a foal who had a white blanket with black spots at birth, and to the best of my knowledge none have spotted out to look like a 'normal' blanket spot either. Could just be coincidence and the non-Lp horses he's sired WOULD have exhibited the classic blanket-spot pattern if they'd had the Lp gene to allow it to be shown, but my point is that if he carries the theoretical PATN2 gene then surely he would've passed it to approx half his foals, approx half would've had the Lp gene too, so approx 25% would've had a blanket spot pattern? (Theoretically he has to carry PATN2 if we're going by that model because he has produced spotteds who have a white pattern at birth (so suspected to not be due to Lp) which doesn't cover their whole body like a leopard.)

I suppose what I'm getting at is that in this case, my hypothetical model of PATN as being similar to Tobiano in that it just codes for white and other genes affect the black spots and area of cover of the white areas holds truer than PATN1 and PATN2?

Obviously I'm looking at just one line though and appreciate there are tons more out there - my boy's line could have an odd variation to the rule!!!

Now I shall probably re-read this and find it makes no sense as I'm only thinking out loud LOL!!!


Really glad this thread's proving to be of interest to so many - I find colour genetics fascinating too :-)
Click to expand...

How many foals has his sire sired? How many of those leopards, etc were out of Appaloosa mares? Did he breed leopard from solid non Appaloosa mares? You can only truely tell what genes an Appaloosa is carrying by what he sires out of solid non Appaloosa mares, and you need a fair number of foals to work out what pattern they consistently breed. He might be the only one with black spots because his dam was also carrying black, remember both parents have to carry black to get it. And are they definately black or black bay spots?
 
Aww spotty_pony! Your boy looks like a horse I used to know! He had more spots, but was a black-based tobiano with Lp (varnish roan) like yours :-) . Although actually, in one of the photos yours looks more liver chestnut based?

Hiya Kat :-) . Thank you very much :-) . Smurfles is happy people still drool over him now he's not a stallion. He's always going to be so special :-) .

whirlwindhorses - all the foals my boy's sire has sired (to the best of my knowledge) were out of pure NF mares with known pedigrees, so none of them had Lp and I'd hazard a guess that they didn't carry PATN either although obviously I have no proof of that, only that there has been no colour allowed in NFs for quite a while (if ever) and although it would be hidden, there is no known (to the best of my knowledge) Appaloosa blood in the NF.

So I think it's really handy because it simplifies things a little when the genes only come from one parent.

To the best of my knowledge he's sired approx 40-45 foals (was gelded when the breeders cut right back on breeding because of the way things were going in the horsey world before anyone jumps on that!) so a fair number to get a good idea of percentages and spread of colours and patterns :-) .
 
Boodles said:
Thank you, will look at link when brain will take it in - hopefully tomorrow!

Sire is a buckskin near-leopard spot minimal tobiano(pic at top of page 2 and third post down on page 3 of this GIANT thread!). Dam is what I'd always've called a dark bay.

I'd definately be happy to class that pic as Lp only (gold star to me for that then, I've got something right LOL!) just mine doesn't fit so cleanly into the box as he has had a white lacey bit and black spots since he was a baby.

Perhaps the best way to find out would be to breed about 100 foals and see what colours they all come out... #Boodles starts to stir because she's frustrated there's no simple answer to her question and it seems to be uncovering MORE questions which she doesn't know the answer to LOL#
Click to expand...


re black spots, you mention somewhere in here that he has had a lacey white blanket and black spots since birth.
 
Regandal said:
Whirlwindhorses - those foals are stunning! Do they stay that colour?
Click to expand...

Thanks, yes they all keep the spots they are born with and some develop more as they age. The only one of those foals that won't keep his colour is the iron grey leopard, he has the grey gene and the spots will gradually turn grey and he will be totally white/grey. This is the grey one:

SilverhawkSept29th.JPG
 
Ah ok - his black spots are definately black and not his original coat colour.

I own his 2yo full brother and he is a buckskin base too, but his spots are brown and black! (He's a near-leopard spot)

There are also siblings who are black leopard spots, but no siblings who are what I think of as a classic blanket spot - so white quarters with black spots on top.

However there are a few with white blankets with no black spots - but can't be LpLp because the dams are all solid and NFs so couldn't even be minimally Lp themselves.

My 4yo has a lacey blanket but the black spots are not over it. On a FB forum someone who's a member of The Appaloosa Project has said that varnish roan can produce black spots so I assume that where's his came from - he didn't have them at birth as far as I can tell (although he had his lacey blanket at birth) but the black spots came through before he was weaned so he was still a foal.
 
I just remembered about this mammoth thread from a few months ago! According the The Appaloosa Project which I am now a member of, it is thought that my boy DOES carry PATN, and according to lots with experience of diluted seal browns, he IS the cream diluted form of seal brown - so black base, with the At form of Agouti present (which only restricts the colour away from the muzzle and flanks, rather than into the legs, mane and tail like the normal form of Agouti) and with the cream gene too. I've always called At bays 'dark bays' and At buckskins 'chocolate dun' which makes me cringe now!!

Thought I would also add a photo of my stallion from a month or two ago... Rather pleased with how he's turning out to be honest! Shame it's not his spottier side though!

HarleyLionheartcorrectdiagonal_zps9071f6fe.jpg


And one from back in January at one of his first baby dressage tests - just preparing a transition to walk so not as forward as we'd normally be...

HarleyCrofton12-1-14IntroBTrotLLovely_zpsa8426d9f.jpg
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top