Spotty/Quarter horses - a "dodgy" gene question!

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I was chatting with a friend of mine the other day and we were talking about another friends Spotty horse. We got around to spotty horses generally being more reactive to stimulation. She said she had once been told by and American friend that some breeds of horses are tested for a particular gene before being taken onto livery yards in America as horses that have this gene are dangerous to handle. As you can see it was a fairly vague conversation but it has gotten me wondering if this undesirable gene could be in the Spotty lines as well? I am really not good on colours so I would presume the Spottys I have come across are Appaloosas? I have known a few Knapstruppers (sp!!)and they have been completely different in the "head".

Does anyone know about this test and how/why it came about. Would love to know more :)
 
I can't answer any of your questions, but I'm curious too. I have a Knabstrupper X who is very very reactive and ridiculously sound sensitive - although sane enough in her own special way. I've always blamed her mother's dippy Trakehner lines though, because her dad is pretty easy going!
 
That's really interesting, thank you :)

"This may occur with fasting followed by consumption of a high potassium feed such as alfalfa. Hyperkalemia, which is an excessive amount of potassium in the blood, causes the muscles in the horse to contract more readily than normal. This makes the horse susceptible to sporadic episodes of muscle tremors or paralysis"

Would it also follow then that they do seem more sensitive to handling as their muscles are in a "hyper" state. While they may not have a different brain response to "normal" horses the muscles are "over-reacting"?
 
Do you know if what we heard was true and that horses are tested before being allowed on livery yards? I can understand it in breeding animals. It seems it can manifest itself in varying degrees so maybe "low grade" sufferers are more "dangerous" to be around?
 
This is something I know nothing about. However, I have just read a really upsetting thread in the Tack Room about a horse which bolts and is about to be pts.

I think breeders and stud books have a duty of care with regard to genetic defects.
 
AQHA will not allow horses with HYPP H/H to be entered into the stud book. N/H and N/N are allowed. All AQHA foals are DNAd. ApHC also DNA test foals. Neither registry will allow a HYPP H/H foal to be registered.

If it is HYPP you are meaning then I've never heard of anywhere over here saying horses have to be tested for HYPP before being allowed onto a livery yard so not sure where your friend got that information.

HYPP horses are potassium sensitive. This does not mean they are sensitive to touch or handle, they're just like any other horse. If you are not careful with what they are fed then they can have an episode. To help you understand, just imagine they are allergic. Being allergic to one thing does not mean being a basket case in all aspects of life.
 
I was hoping you were going to reply, thought you would know :)

It was one of those conversations had on a sunny afternoon hack along the lines of "I think I may have heard something about something, some where, once a long time ago" so details may well be sketchy!

The reason I bought up heightened reaction was because it says in the link that horses can have low grade symptoms so would their muscles then react with more intensity when stimulated, even if their minds are not IYKWIM, because the potassium levels are high enough to cause muscular reaction but not high enough to cause the more severe symptoms?.
 
Rollin said:
This is something I know nothing about. However, I have just read a really upsetting thread in the Tack Room about a horse which bolts and is about to be pts.

I think breeders and stud books have a duty of care with regard to genetic defects.
Click to expand...

I know, it is heart breaking. Poor lady but what a brave one :(

It would be really interesting to know what caused it and I would hope, if God forbid I were in her position, I could afford to have a PM done to find out if there was a physical reason why.
 
It shouldn't pose any problems for a handler when the horse isn't having an episode. The body kind of quivers when they are having an episode. There's some videos on youtube, I'll try and find you one to show you what happens. TBH though, there is much more known about HYPP nowadays so anyone clued up on it can help their horse tremendously if they are just very careful about what they feed.

Here, I've found this video which you might find interesting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZGYxiNOynM
 
Thank you:)
That is not nice but definitely interesting. I don't know if it is just the light but it looks like it is covered in hives, is that its muscles you can see through the skin? Do these horses tend to have a normal life if managed correctly or is it about "damage limitation"? Is the horse just relaxed or does something happen during an episode?
 
I don't breed or buy HYPP H/H horses; I actually have a fairly strong stance that only N/N should be allowed to be registered but the changing of the association rules fairly recently disallowing H/H horses is certainly a step in the right direction. I have known a few N/H horses, all have been very carefully managed.

What you're seeing in the video is fairly typical of an episode though. Yes the 'hives' you're seeing is muscle-mass. Hmm I'd err more towards the damage limitation trail of thought tbh. They do lead a fairly normal life BUT there's a huge responsibility on the owners shoulders to make sure they are incredibly careful with how they keep the horse and what it's fed. The horse in the video is relaxed. It's the skin that quivers and it's an uncontrollable thing for the horse. From what I know about HYPP it can cause secondary problems; risk of colic is heightened for example.

I personally don't care for halter horses. I have, however, owned quite a few Impressive horses (all N/N and ranch horses) and they are lovely horses so I do understand why people want them. You can spot an Impressive horse a mile off as they are all so unique in comparison to other bloodlines. I just can't fathom why anyone would want to perpetuate this condition; AQHA being a big part of the problem. AQHA could eradicate this condition completely within one generation, but there's a lot of money in halter showing and they've always been afraid to alienate that market. I think they are short selling themselves though, they are AQHA, a massive organisation and if they disallow the breeding of these horses then what will those people do? There's nowhere else for them to go so they would have to toe the association line. Just my little bit of equine political ramblings for the day :smile3:
 
PS. AQHA/APHA/ApHC horses are blighted by a couple more conditions - PSSM, GBED and HERDA. All of these conditions can be tested for and there is a lobby trying to encourage people who have horses with these conditions, to never breed them.
 
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Thank you so much, I shall have a good look over these over the next few days.

Watching the video I was thinking he needed to stop eating as there must be a risk of choking or the digestive system seizing up!

The fact this is not already eradicated is beyond me. The things we do to them hey....:(
 
My pleasure. I don't get the opportunity to talk about AQHAs very often on here :smile3:

I think the biggest problem with HYPP really is that the horse can get muscle fatigue and can collapse from it. If you want gruesome, check out HERDA, now that really is a condition that is very ikky!
 
Christ and to know the could both be eradicated, what on earth was the point of the research if we remain ignorant to it.
A heart attack must be fairly common with HYYP, after all the heart is a muscle? :(

Thanks, its something else for me to rant about :)

Do you have any pics of your Impressive QH? I have the idea that they are very similar to the TB sprint type. What makes a QH a QH?
 
Spring Feather said:
My pleasure. I don't get the opportunity to talk about AQHAs very often on here :smile3:

I think the biggest problem with HYPP really is that the horse can get muscle fatigue and can collapse from it. If you want gruesome, check out HERDA, now that really is a condition that is very ikky!
Click to expand...

I had to google didnt I :(
 
I can't speak for AQHAs but all but one of my spots have been pretty placid, a little sensitive to shouting maybe at time... Many I know do suffer with (night) blindness, which can make them a little sharper depending on the rate they go blind.
 
Interesting post. Would HYPP also include involuntary tremors in the legs and would excitement/stress make it worse? Or is this more likely PSSM? I am interested as my horse (the one in question) is Part Appaloosa. I don't know much about his history or his genes so that's not much help either!
 
It might be something to look at if nothing else shows up. PSSM is what I would know as EPSM?

Did you watch the video link, its incredible to watch and bear in mind those swellings are the muscles!! Poor Horse :(

With regards to the spottys being more sensitive than others. I just seem to come across a high percentage, compared to other breeds, that are! I don't mind it, I can do sensitive but it just strikes me as odd :)

Also have learnt something very interesting which is never a bad thing :)
 
It seems that both HYYP and HERDA are both in particular bloodlines only so would presume you could work out if the possibility was there. Not saying your horse has either!!!!!!
 
Moon blindness is pretty well known in the UK I'm sure. I knew it when I lived there. Apps are prone to moon blindness.

With regards to the bloodlines which carry HYPP or HERDA, they are known however people still like the bloodlines. Horses are tested so offspring of particular carriers may or may not be carriers, therefore you can still get the bloodlines (albeit you have to pick through which offspring sire/dam of said stallion you want to use) but without the conditions.

I don't know about HYPP horses dying simply from heart attacks, but they certainly could die from collapsing from the weakened muscles. I would imagine stressful situations would not be good for a HYPP horse. Certainly upper legs quiver, I don't know about lower legs as there's not a huge amount of muscle down there, so possibly not.

Impressive horses have a muscle-base shape that isn't really like any other bloodlines. They leap out at you as they are so recognizable. Nope they are not TB like, the opposite really, they are more like a Hanoverian or Holsteiner (one of the chunkier WB types). However depending on the other line of the pedigree then they can also look like great heavy bulls, think Charolais on steroids, those are the ones the halter people like (not my thing at all though!)

AQHA was one of the first registries of these types of horses. Most APHAs (paints) come from the result of AQHA youngsters born with too much white and outwith the colour guidelines to be able to be registered AQHA. Therefore APHA was established to take up the fall-outs from AQHA. The problem with APHA initially was that they did also allow some horses of unknown pedigrees (unlike AQHA who only have fully pedigreed horses) into the association to try to get numbers up. It's a closed book now though and all registered horses must have, I believe, a 5 gen pedigree at least but you'd have to check that for sure as I only have purebreds so not something I've had to pay attention to. ApHC are similar to APHA, often the horses having QH/TB etc blood. ApHC is a breed society over here so you can get solid Apps as well as spotty ones. I think, although am not 100% on this either as again I only deal in purebred Apps, but they run on a similar line to APHA whereby the horse would have to have a certain percentage of known parentage. My AQHAs, APHAs and ApHCs all have full pedigrees going back to the 1600s, as is common over here but I was looking at an App pedigree of a horse in the UK earlier and it really wasn't what I'd call an App as it barely had a pedigree at all, so it seems like your App society over there is not as picky as they are over here.
 
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In response to Spring Feather:
“ApHC is a breed society over here so you can get solid Apps as well as spotty ones.”

In the UK there are two Societies that register Appaloosas. Only one is affiliated to America, the ApHC UK. The rules that govern the ApHC also apply to the UK. Throughbreds, Arabs and Quarter Horses are permitted outcrosses, and solid apps are registered as NC - Non Characteristic. Appaloosas born in the UK do not have to register with the USA, which is a shame, the encouragement to register only being that the offspring are more valued as they are being made part of the Appaloosa History, (which IME is not that important to the average Brit) and the registered horses are able to be shown in front of a USA/European Judge.
(Each year the ApHC UK hold a two-day national breed show, with an invited American judge as well as an English one).

“My AQHAs, APHAs and ApHCs all have full pedigrees going back to the 1600s, as is common over here but I was looking at an App pedigree of a horse in the UK earlier and it really wasn’t what I’d call an App as it barely had a pedigree at all, so it seems like your App society over there is not as picky as they are over here.”

In the UK there is not such a large gene pool as in the USA. The ApHC UK have 3 registers, the ‘A’ register for those Appaloosas registered in the USA, so therefore they will have followed the American registration criteria, the ‘B’ register is for British bred Appaloosas which must have one registered (ApHC UK) parent and the other parent must be registered on the main register of an approved breed registry (The AQHA, Wetherbys, or the Arab Horse Society). The horse can be upgraded to the ‘A’ register on production of the ApHC registration certificate. The third register is for Part-Breds: one parent must be a registered ApHC UK Appaloosa and the other parent can be any other breed. The ‘A’ register only follows the rules of the ApHC.
Over the years the main breeders in the UK have made the effort to be loyal to the USA bloodlines, using imported stallions on imported mares. More recently though it seems that the imported stallions (and imported semen) are used to compliment the bloodlines that are already existent in the UK.

With regard to genetic diseases: In the UK the Stallions have to be licensed, and both societies insist that the colts/stallions presented are tested negative for PSSM. The ApHC UK acted upon this in retrospect and thus the odd stallion lost his license because they were positive, sadly. Within the two societies PSSM positive horses are not encouraged to be bred from. It is more frequently seen that horses at stud and for sale have the results displayed, which is a positive step forward. In my experience of AQHA stallions in the UK, there is always a HYPP result shown. I have a AQHA gelding (as well as Appaloosas) and his negative result is in his passport. The ApHC UK have pioneered the listing of PSSM results in registered Appaloosa’s passports.
 
Thank you both very much for the replies. It seems the UK are taking a positive step in making the "issues" more transparent. Unfortunately until there is something in place to stop these animals being bred from there will still be animals that suffer.

Springfeather, were you working with appys when you were over here as moon blindness is something I had never heard of before?
 
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