Sprinter Sacre

Sugarmouse said:
Were you riding the horse? No, so maybe best leave decisions to the professionals who ride and look after this horse.

Why do so many people seem to think that there always has to be some consipirisy going on when a well known and fancied horse runs badly or is pulled up.
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Actually I think it's very unlikely to a conspiracy when it's a horse as high profile as Sprinter Sacre, but I still think alot of things don't add up.....time will tell but I have a feeling he'll run again soonish and be back to what he once was and we'll all be non the wiser !
 
Regarding your thoughts on him making his own way back to the stables. Had he been in distress an ambulance would have picked him up on veterinary guidance. The race was still taking place and other horses could need the ambulance (there are two on course).

Had Barry feared the horse had broken down, broken his pelvis or been in oxygen distress an ambulance would have been used after the vets had stabilised him. Barry would not know the horse had heart problems. Had he pushed him when he faltered and then the horse had burst or dropped dead what would people be saying now.

Many professional riders not just in racing will have stopped a horse for not 'feeling right', these horses are very different from the pleasure horses most of us ride.
 
Bonny - atrial fibrillation can correct itself; assuming it happens mid race then a quick return to normal rhythm is quite possible and by far the best outcome. When AF is detected at a routine check, and you don't know how long it has been present for, it is much more difficult to convert the horse back to normal rhythm with treatment and less likely the normal rhythm will be maintained.

I have never sat on a horse with AF (and wouldn't want to!), but reportedly if a horse converts to AF mid-exercise then it does feel like the horse just stops, similar to when they displace their palate - to an observer you wouldn't see anything, but the jockey will feel the difference immediately, hence why Barry Geraghty presumably was so quick to pull up. The heart is still beating and the horse perfectly able to trot back, it will have just had an obvious effect on racing effort. Plenty of horses out there have AF without their owners realising there is anything wrong until it is picked up at a vaccination etc.
 
AdorableAlice said:
Regarding your thoughts on him making his own way back to the stables. Had he been in distress an ambulance would have picked him up on veterinary guidance. The race was still taking place and other horses could need the ambulance (there are two on course).

Had Barry feared the horse had broken down, broken his pelvis or been in oxygen distress an ambulance would have been used after the vets had stabilised him. Barry would not know the horse had heart problems. Had he pushed him when he faltered and then the horse had burst or dropped dead what would people be saying now.

Many professional riders not just in racing will have stopped a horse for not 'feeling right', these horses are very different from the pleasure horses most of us ride.
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I am involved in racing, have been for many years and I still find the whole thing strange but I suppose non of us really know the full story beyond what is released to the press and only time will tell.
 
Ive seen all the conspiracy theories on the Racing Posts website, these are mainly disgruntled punters talking out their pockets, some have suggested he couldnt go with the eventual winner so was pulled up so as not to get beat.

As I said earlier some of NH horses have not been right, Bobsworth ran a stinker before winning the Lexus yesterday, cant believe either that LongRun has run to his full capabilities, I suspect they have had a virus at the yard and this could well have been showing in SS in his race.
 
Dobiegirl said:
Ive seen all the conspiracy theories on the Racing Posts website, these are mainly disgruntled punters talking out their pockets, some have suggested he couldnt go with the eventual winner so was pulled up so as not to get beat.

As I said earlier some of NH horses have not been right, Bobsworth ran a stinker before winning the Lexus yesterday, cant believe either that LongRun has run to his full capabilities, I suspect they have had a virus at the yard and this could well have been showing in SS in his race.
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Equally you could say some of the horses on the yard are running very well and Nicky Henderson blamed the distance for Bobsworth's defeat and Long Run is on the decline.....I'm sure Sprinter would have had every test going before running and was supposed to be working brilliantly and I very much doubt he would have run at all if there was any question he wasn't right....
Just wanted to add, I'm not suggesting a conspiracy, he's too important a horse for that, all I'm saying is that it doesn't add up to me.
 
bonny said:
Equally you could say some of the horses on the yard are running very well and Nicky Henderson blamed the distance for Bobsworth's defeat and Long Run is on the decline.....I'm sure Sprinter would have had every test going before running and was supposed to be working brilliantly and I very much doubt he would have run at all if there was any question he wasn't right....
Just wanted to add, I'm not suggesting a conspiracy, he's too important a horse for that, all I'm saying is that it doesn't add up to me.
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What do you think "adds up" then?
 
Best Mate was working well before his heart gave out at Exeter, as was Persian Punch.

The only way the situation would not add up is if nothing had been found at the vets. It was and the horse is still alive because he was in the hands of one of the best jockeys in the business.
 
AdorableAlice said:
Best Mate was working well before his heart gave out at Exeter, as was Persian Punch.

The only way the situation would not add up is if nothing had been found at the vets. It was and the horse is still alive because he was in the hands of one of the best jockeys in the business.
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I dont believe that for a minute, Best Mate and Persian Punch died on the course, as do many racehorses when their hearts "burst", it's often after the horse is pulled up, very rarely during the race and if Sprinter Sacre had the same problem he would be dead not being talked about as running again this season. If Barry G had thought for a moment that he was having heart problems he would hardly have trotted him back, I for one would love to know, what he thought the problem was but we are not being told......
 
bonny said:
I dont believe that for a minute, Best Mate and Persian Punch died on the course, as do many racehorses when their hearts "burst", it's often after the horse is pulled up, very rarely during the race and if Sprinter Sacre had the same problem he would be dead not being talked about as running again this season. If Barry G had thought for a moment that he was having heart problems he would hardly have trotted him back, I for one would love to know, what he thought the problem was but we are not being told......
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I give in, if Best Mate and Persian Punch had not been working well they would not have started. What sort of racing are you involved in. I would have thought an experienced horseman involved in the industry would not be asking such odd questions. Punters yes, horseman no.
 
Barry didn't necessarily need to know exactly what the problem was - he just knew the horse wasn't right and so pulled him up. He clearly felt the horse was capable of trotting back to the stables.

There are many reasons why hearts do what they do but unless you had monitors and all forms of gadgetry on him whilst he raced you will never know the exact cause of the problem. Or why it righted itself when it did.
 
bonny said:
I dont believe that for a minute, Best Mate and Persian Punch died on the course, as do many racehorses when their hearts "burst", it's often after the horse is pulled up, very rarely during the race and if Sprinter Sacre had the same problem he would be dead not being talked about as running again this season. If Barry G had thought for a moment that he was having heart problems he would hardly have trotted him back, I for one would love to know,
what he thought the problem was but we are not being told......
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Not the whole article but you get the gist this isn't unheard of in racehorses http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2042-3306.1986.tb03533.x/abstract

http://www.warwickequineclinic.com/PoorPerformanceIssuesandDiscussion.en.html

I guess the NH team along with the cardiologist will put him back in training, and monitor him closely to see if this is a one off problem, or an ongoing concern..
 
The 2 horses died loving what they did, luckerly BG realised something wasn't right and pulled him up and didn't put him under any pressure, so no I don't think we have a right to know. The trainer and owners owe us the public nothing, the horse is owned privately and trained for them and them only, if they decide to have the horse put down tomorrow it's their call not yours or mine. They put out a post saying he has a irregular heartbeat, that should be good enough.
 
bonny said:
Is anybody else beginning to wonder about this whole affair and if there's more to it than meets the eye ?
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No.

Three lying vets and a mass conspiracy?? Your Christmas presents weren't very exciting, obviously :)
 
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bonny said:
I dont believe that for a minute, Best Mate and Persian Punch died on the course, as do many racehorses when their hearts "burst", it's often after the horse is pulled up, very rarely during the race and if Sprinter Sacre had the same problem he would be dead not being talked about as running again this season. If Barry G had thought for a moment that he was having heart problems he would hardly have trotted him back, I for one would love to know, what he thought the problem was but we are not being told......
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I don't understand what you think we aren't being told. Barry G felt something wrong, pulled up, a vet diagnosed AF (not unheard of in racehorses), SS went to Newmarket, the AF converted back to normal rhythm (quite possible given the short time it had been present). SS not has a normal heart rhythm and will be quite capable of exercise.

If you go back and read my other post on this thread I have explained about Atrial Fib, and jockmaster has posted an informative link. Barry G will have felt SS falter and start to pull up - he won't have known what was wrong, but as an experienced jockey he will have felt an immediate difference in performance.

As you have experience in racing you will presumably have seen horses flip their palate mid-race, when they usually just suddenly go backwards through the field as if hitting a brick wall. Had Barry G not been so quick to notice a problem, then this is probably what we'd have seen - a sudden loss of race pace. Barry G didn't need to know WHAT the problem was, just that there was a problem. SS would have had an increased heart race post-race but AF is by definition an irregularly irregular rhythm so the attending vet will probably have had an idea that this was the diagnosis given the clinical signs shown, and this will then have been confirmed by further heart auscultation once SS had settled, followed by the cardiac tests down at Newmarket. If a horse has only been in AF a short time then it is much easier to convert back to normal rhythm.
 
In know nothing about racing, but I have owned a horse with intermittent AF which (as the name suggests) was sometimes present and sometimes not, and which was entirely unpredictable. The first time it manifested itself was in the middle of a dressage test and I could feel instantly that something wasn't right; vet was called and AF diagnosed. Another check 4 hours later and the heart was completely normal. I was advised to work the horse as normal and did so for several years, so I really don't know how anyone (who knows anything about the condition, that is) would suspect anything underhand.
 
bonny said:
I dont believe that for a minute, Best Mate and Persian Punch died on the course, as do many racehorses when their hearts "burst", it's often after the horse is pulled up, very rarely during the race and if Sprinter Sacre had the same problem he would be dead not being talked about as running again this season. If Barry G had thought for a moment that he was having heart problems he would hardly have trotted him back, I for one would love to know, what he thought the problem was but we are not being told......
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Barry G is a jockey...not a vet....he would have just felt the horse falter....I know having ridden a horse who did this....but I got the vet as I did not know what was wrong....because I am not a vet.
The vets told NH there was a problem with SS...and he told the world.
Having myself been on the receiving end of the devastating news that could be a touch and go, I can imagine the relief all at NH's yard are feeling at having their boy back.
SS will be closely monitered, probably with heart monitoring equipment.....but he will need to be put back under pressure to test all of this. This is what happened to my horse.
I am saddened that people like yourself could possibly believe that a bunch of highly experienced vets would conspire with a trainer and all those connected with the horse and the industry to make a 'sham' diagnoses because they 'stopped' the horse....unbelievable :(
Did you by any chance lose money on this horse?
Bryndu
 
Sky 415 ATR are about to speak to Barry G, for those of you doubting the geldings connections it will be worth listening to what Barry has to say.
 
Taken from today's Daily Telegraph sports page:

Cheltenham Festival still on agenda for Sprinter Sacre
Smart chaser's heartbeat had returned to normal and he will undergo further tests that will determine his chances of running at Cheltenham in March.

Road to recovery: Sprinter Sacre is back in his stable after his irregular heartbeat returned to normal Photo: PA By JA McGrath
6:57PM GMT 29 Dec 2013
1 Comment
Sprinter Sacre could have been excused for thinking he had been dropped off at the wrong stable when he arrived back at Seven Barrows, in Lambourn, on Sunday. The champion two-mile chaser’s irregular heartbeat that caused him to be pulled up at Kempton on Friday had disappeared and he had been sent home from a Newmarket veterinary practice to await further tests.

“The whole place is different from Saturday when he left,” trainer Nicky Henderson reported. “Sprinter’s heart has self-righted and that is humungous progress, plus Bobs Worth is back, having fought like a terrier to win the Lexus. There is a very different feeling at Seven Barrows today.”

“It’s fantastic news because that means that we don’t have to use the drug that is usually the first step in these cases; a drug that is highly toxic with side effects and considerable risks. Sprinter Sacre will be given gentle exercise for a couple of days, and on Friday Celia Marr, the equine cardiologist at Rossdales, will be here with heart monitors.”
“People are asking why it happened Well, in Celia’s opinion, elite athletes invariably have big hearts, and this brings problems. There is more *muscle around their heart, but

there are lots of things we can do to help him.”

Bryndu
 
I don't believe in the conspiracy theories. However, I did read one after the race( cant remember where, I think it may have been a comment on RP) anyway the poster said SS had been pulled up to get the price down for Cheltenham Gold Cup. The comment was written before all the health checks were done. It said the trainer/jockey wont say he's lame because the experienced racegoers/pundits will be able to tell that he's not, they'll say he's got a dodgy heart because only a vet can check that for sure and then it will miraculously clear up and he will be fine for cheltenham but at bigger odds that if he had won the Kempton race.

How i don't agree with this analogy, even if it is close to what actually happened but it must be hard for NH to disprove it to the doubters.

Does AF mean that if its all normal and he runs again, it will be up to Barry during a race to decide if SS's heart is ok? What an awful responsibility when you know the horse already has a problem.
 
I dont think for one minute his price will be affected come Cheltenham and he will be going for the Champion Chase not the Gold Cup. I really think people who have got their fingers burnt are behind these rumours and although NH has been less than candid in the past re:Binnocular I think what happened to SS is true as reported.
 
Dobiegirl said:
I dont think for one minute his price will be affected come Cheltenham and he will be going for the Champion Chase not the Gold Cup. I really think people who have got their fingers burnt are behind these rumours and although NH has been less than candid in the past re:Binnocular I think what happened to SS is true as reported.
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That I suppose is one of the problems with what happened, alot of people don't trust racing as it is and Henderson is not known for his openness. For me it has nothing at all to do with betting, I would never have money on a race with him involved, just wanted to watch him and expected to be amazed as before. I think for a lot of people it's nothing to do with being a punter, just a race fan and he was/is something out of the ordinary. Maybe he'll come back but there will always be a shadow hanging over him and personally I can't help but feel that if he has a heart condition he wouldn't run again. Time will tell......
 
Then how come Denman ran again with a more severe occurrence of this issue.Didnt seem to harm him but I suspect it may just have a small effect on the jockey that would be my only concern!
 
popsdosh said:
Then how come Denman ran again with a more severe occurrence of this issue.Didnt seem to harm him but I suspect it may just have a small effect on the jockey that would be my only concern!
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Denman had an operation and a long time off and he seems to be the only well known horse that any of us can come up with that had a diagnosed problem and raced again.....
 
Echo Bravo said:
The 2 horses died loving what they did, luckerly BG realised something wasn't right and pulled him up and didn't put him under any pressure, so no I don't think we have a right to know. The trainer and owners owe us the public nothing, the horse is owned privately and trained for them and them only, if they decide to have the horse put down tomorrow it's their call not yours or mine. They put out a post saying he has a irregular heartbeat, that should be good enough.
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That is not how racing works, everything is supposed to be out in the open and yes, we have a right to know, horses are supposed to run on their merits and to achieve the best possible place with allowances made, obviously for injuries or tiring horses. You are not allowed to just do whatever you want.....or no one would ever watch or bet on races if everybody was just in it for themselves.
 
bonny said:
That is not how racing works, everything is supposed to be out in the open and yes, we have a right to know, horses are supposed to run on their merits and to achieve the best possible place with allowances made, obviously for injuries or tiring horses. You are not allowed to just do whatever you want.....or no one would ever watch or bet on races if everybody was just in it for themselves.
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Denman didn't have an operation http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/feb/02/denman-return-action-newbury-vets-heart-condition

As for "the only example we can come up with is Denman" maybe that's because he is a grade 1 winning NH horse who had AF was successfully treated...not a bad example....
 
I have never sat on a horse with AF (and wouldn't want to!) said:
I have been on a horse when this has happened, and believe me, its extremely frightening. My welsh D stallion was returning from a routine walk and trot hack, when he lost the use of his hindend and appeared to be shying away to the left. I got off him and walked him home, by which time he was completely normal. A week later, it happened again, this time on a busy road whilst leading another horse from him. He was "paddling" with all four legs, and seemed as if he couldn't see. I jumped off, got him and the other horse off the road (nightmare, with a driver shouting abuse at me for not controlling my horse), and led him home again. The vet could find nothing wrong, I couldn't replicate the attack even after an hours trot and canter on the lunge. Both episodes came at walk after light exercise, so very different to SS. I hate to think what would have happened if BG hadn't pulled him up so quickly (shades of Best Mate). Having ridden in races myself, when a horse tires, its like driving a car with a flat tyre, all forward thrust is gone, and thats when damage can be done.
As to my stallion, we reckoned that he had had a virus due to having his flu jab 5 weeks earlier. I gave him a year off work and vaccinations, and he's never had a problem again, although I did change the vaccine that he was given.
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