Spurs at lower level dressage?

[GoldenWillow]

Over the last 8 or so months I've been watching quite a lot of dressage tests online in my attempt to remember tests. One thing that stood out was seeing riders with spurs on and their legs going thump, thump, thump on their horses sides, often turning their toes out for more effect. I am definitely not against spurs but used correctly by people with stable lower legs and as a refinement to aids not as a constant nagging. I've been watching Prelim and Novice tests.

It made me wonder if there was a case for saying no spurs until higher levels? I also wondered would this be reflected in their marks or in the comments?

 

[tristar]

if i needed spurs to do novice i would consider the horse not ready to compete .

to work in 20 x 40 the horse needs to be working forwards enough on its own to make it round the short ends/corners under its own power.

 

[Bernster]

I don’t use spurs for this reason. My legs aren’t subtle enough for spurs!

 

[sbloom]

If a horse needs spurs to be forwards I'd be looking at discomfort and compensatory movement patterns. Horses like to move (despite being energy conservers!) and to be in harmony with what we're asking them, if they're not as forwards as we like there's a reason that needs addressing, not shutting down their only form of communication (reluctance to go forwards) with force. Spurs are for aid refinement at higher levels (if you believe they're needed at all).

I'm not judging older, weaker riders, or older horses with ingrained habits and owners unable to get them to change, but the more we learn the more we know the above to be true.

 

[muddybay]

I don’t use spurs for this reason. My legs aren’t subtle enough for spurs!

Likewise here, I've been told by so many instructors to use spurs but I don't think my leg is stable enough

 

[millitiger]

I quite despise righteous threads and comments like this (sorry OP).
I would assume the riders you are criticising are out there, trying their best, and wouldn't like to be causing harm or discomfort.

Perhaps the horses get ring fright and back off a bit which isn't the usual feeling or the riders are nervous which can cause us to grip up and the lower leg to start flapping- I don't think 99% would TRY to jab their horse on purpose, repeatedly.

I have always worn spurs on my current horse.
Sometimes I watch videos back and think "bloody hell, I'm riding like crap, and what is my heel doing?"
I don't anyone else chipping in, unless it's in a supportive and helpful way- that is always welcome.

 

[GoldenWillow]

It was in no way meant to be a righteous thread more a musing on given that dressage is meant to be about training, the lower levels tests are designed for less experienced horses and riders and that spurs are meant as a refinement to the aids should they be allowed in the lower level, rather like double bridles are for refinement and therefore only used at a

Although seeing horses continually kicked with spurs either by design or accident on is not something that I want to see, yes occasionally it will happen but it should not be regularly and not allowing spurs until a certain level is one way of addressing this.This is written as a once competent rider who was happy to ride with spurs in certain circumstances but now as an older rider with numerous health issues I don't feel my leg is stable enough to wear them. I have never watched any test of mine back without picking holes in myself but I am not wearing spurs. Again this is not meant to be righteous.

BTW I watched tests where the toe looks to be deliberately turned out when the horse is not or has stopped going forwards and in upwards transitions.

 

[RachelFerd]

When I was a kid in Pony Club you had to have written permission of the DC to be allowed to ride in spurs. I don't think that was a bad thing!

I think there are plenty of people at prelim and novice level who are educated enough to ride in them, and they can be used totally appropriately at that level. Agree also that many people are wearing them without adequate understanding or ability to keep their leg still. How do you police it though without having overarching organisation that has a link to training and permissions... not sure, certainly not possible in the unaffiliated mass of competition.

 

[tristar]

When I was a kid in Pony Club you had to have written permission of the DC to be allowed to ride in spurs. I don't think that was a bad thing!

I think there are plenty of people at prelim and novice level who are educated enough to ride in them, and they can be used totally appropriately at that level. Agree also that many people are wearing them without adequate understanding or ability to keep their leg still. How do you police it though without having overarching organisation that has a link to training and permissions... not sure, certainly not possible in the unaffiliated mass of competition.

educated or not why would they need them at prelim?

 

[AdorableAlice]

educated or not why would they need them at prelim?

Because there is many a horse that has not been educated in its younger years and has learnt to be non-respectful of the forward aids. Just like there are plenty of horses that have never been correctly halter broken (I have one, a bought in horse) and spend their lives being pig ignorant and needing a dually or similar.

As long as the rider has core strength and an independent hand/seat/leg it is far kinder to the backward thinking horse to have a reminding poke than an incessant thumping.

 

[planete]

Would it not be better to reschool the horse to be responsive to leg aids? We are doing this with Woody, my heavy small cob and he is turning into a different ride, forward and willing. He is the kind who would probably down tools if he felt spurs trying to urge him on anyway.

 

[ycbm]

educated or not why would they need them at prelim?

Depending on the shape of the horse's barrel, the fit to the rider, the ability of the rider to open the hip, etc, the use of a spur can make it much easier to give a better aid.

I got a going-over once on this forum for riding my cob in very big spurs with unsteady legs. The reality was that his shape and mine meant that he punched my lower legs away from his sides as he moved. What one person interpreted as me constantly spurring him was nothing of the kind. I was also using very long spurs with a very big roller, which were interpreted as being very strong in impact just because they were so visible. The reality was that they allowed me to touch his side with a big blunt ball, instead of a sharp point, and just turn my foot instead of having to bring my heel under his belly and give him a kick.
.

 

[Red-1]

Depending on the shape of the horse's barrel, the fit to the rider, the ability of the rider to open the hip, etc, the use of a spur can make it much easier to give a better aid.

I got a going-over once on this forum for riding my cob in very big spurs with unsteady legs. The reality was that his shape and mine meant that he punched my lower legs away from his sides as he moved. What one person interpreted as me constantly spurring him was nothing of the kind. I was also using very long spurs with a very big roller, which were interpreted as being very strong in impact just because they were so visible. The reality was that they allowed me to touch his side with a big blunt ball, instead of a sharp point, and just turn my foot instead of having to bring my heel under his belly and give him a kick.
.

Not... turning your toes out??? ?????

I sometimes ride in spurs, sometimes not. Only tried once with current horse, never with Rigs, I don't think.

As long as they are not being used cruelly, I can't get excited about it. As long as the horse is kept well, not overweight etc, is working happily and without the owner giving aggression, as long as all that is in place, then I simply mind my own business and do my own thing.

ETA- I pretty much always carry a whip!!! ?????

 

[ycbm]

Not... turning your toes out??? ?????

I know! ? Truthfully, it was a big reason why I sold him, he just wasn't a shape I could get my leg on, and he crucified my hips!

ETA well there's a coincidence. I've just been sent update photos, which i get a couple of times a year from the girl I sold him to. He looks grand, but definitely not the horse for my hips!
.

 

[Red-1]

I know! ? Truthfully, it was a big reason why I sold him, he just wasn't a shape I could get my leg on, and he crucified my hips!
.

I might have tried spurs on Rigs, but my legs are wayyyy below his tummy so they would have been suspended in mid air!

 

[lizziebell]

educated or not why would they need them at prelim?

I have a young horse competing at Prelim, so therefore working at Novice and Elementary at home. I‘m not a talented rider and I’m just an amateur competitor, but I do also compete Advanced Medium and train at PSG level. I do not set a limit on my young horses abilities so I am training them with the view that anything learnt in the early days needs to translate to the higher levels further down the line. For me that means teaching them the finer aids using my spurs, and that’s not just lateral work, but also engagement of the hind leg. A light touch with the spur in the right place tells my youngster I want him to step under a bit more - for me, and where I want his training to go that is better than having no spurs and a leg aid which is a bit blurry. Only way I can explain it, is spurs are like using an iPhone with your fingers and no spurs is like trying to use an iPhone wearing mittens.

I think there is a case for more education on the use of spurs, I do not however think people should be judging others use of spurs - unless you are training that person, there is obvious horse abuse, or you are indeed a BD listed judge.

 

[tristar]

Would it not be better to reschool the horse to be responsive to leg aids? We are doing this with Woody, my heavy small cob and he is turning into a different ride, forward and willing. He is the kind who would probably down tools if he felt spurs trying to urge him on anyway.

totally brilliant, true horsemanship.

 

[scats]

Would it not be better to reschool the horse to be responsive to leg aids? We are doing this with Woody, my heavy small cob and he is turning into a different ride, forward and willing. He is the kind who would probably down tools if he felt spurs trying to urge him on anyway.

Arguably some effective reschooling with spurs, with a rider who knows how to use them properly, might actually be the way to get the horse reactive enough to the leg to eventually reach a point where they are no longer needed for low level work.

Millie was quite switched off and ignorant to leg aids when she arrived, she wanted to be kicked every stride to keep going. I solved this by the use of a light touch with spurs, then leg off. Within a few weeks I could go without spurs and get the same effect. I think that was far kinder than resorting to massive big kicks which was what she had become accustomed to.
She now happily schools and hacks without spurs, but I did find them useful in the short term. I have been riding for a long time though and am fairly competent (current broken ankle aside! ?).

 

[rara007]

educated or not why would they need them at prelim?

Also remember it’s a competition, someone on the day will meet the criteria ‘most correctly’ and win. It’s not just a case of will the horse do the moves well, it’s will it be to the best of its ability. If it was easy we’d all be getting 80%+ at the lower levels! Clearly that does possibly raise some ethical questions, but if I think spurs will improve our performance, I’ll use them. Shock horror, my main horse is in a double and spurs at elementary.

 

[Cortez]

totally brilliant, true horsemanship.

??? What are you talking about? The first lesson for every horse is to go forwards. Spurs are not really designed for that job, although people think they are. I agree that there are many people who wear spurs that should not, but properly used they are invaluable for refining the aids and using LESS pressure.

 

[tristar]

Because there is many a horse that has not been educated in its younger years and has learnt to be non-respectful of the forward aids. Just like there are plenty of horses that have never been correctly halter broken (I have one, a bought in horse) and spend their lives being pig ignorant and needing a dually or similar.

As long as the rider has core strength and an independent hand/seat/leg it is far kinder to the backward thinking horse to have a reminding poke than an incessant thumping.

but there is something between a poke and an incessant thumping leg.

 

[tristar]

??? What are you talking about? The first lesson for every horse is to go forwards. Spurs are not really designed for that job, although people think they are. I agree that there are many people who wear spurs that should not, but properly used they are invaluable for refining the aids and using LESS pressure.

have no clue what you are talking about either
i do in my own small way realize the first lesson is to go forwards, [very surprisingly]

hope you are sitting down whilst reading this

 

[tristar]

Also remember it’s a competition, someone on the day will meet the criteria ‘most correctly’ and win. It’s not just a case of will the horse do the moves well, it’s will it be to the best of its ability. If it was easy we’d all be getting 80%+ at the lower levels! Clearly that does possibly raise some ethical questions, but if I think spurs will improve our performance, I’ll use them. Shock horror, my main horse is in a double and spurs at elementary.

so are a lot of other horses, [falls over in shock]

 

[GoldenWillow]

I think there is a case for more education on the use of spurs, I do not however think people should be judging others use of spurs - unless you are training that person, there is obvious horse abuse, or you are indeed a BD listed judge.

I was not arguing against spurs, and am not against the correct use of spurs and agree they do and can have an important part in training and wondered if there was a case for BD not allowing them at lower levels as is the case with double bridles. What I was seeing was a constant thump, thump, thump against the horses sides and the turning out of toes for certain movements.

??? What are you talking about? The first lesson for every horse is to go forwards. Spurs are not really designed for that job, although people think they are. I agree that there are many people who wear spurs that should not, but properly used they are invaluable for refining the aids and using LESS pressure.

100% this! This has always been my understanding of the use of spurs, not as a aid for forwards (although yes in cases I do think considered use of them for this they can be helpful in schooling for forwards)

 

[ester]

I find them useful for a small specific touch- particularly when small horses/small depth of barrel means I struggle to reach them otherwise (tho that's probably associated with my body failings too), I've had a lot of use out of my bluntended swan necks over the years and wish I'd found the before I did. I don't really get het up about whether other people choose to use them or not and it's rare that I've seen them on someone who doesn't have a secure lower leg.

 

[AdorableAlice]

but there is something between a poke and an incessant thumping leg.

Yes, a well judged poke the moment you feel the horse drop the contact and think backwards. It is called schooling, feel, thought and reward. But, it all hinges on a strong core and the ability to ride from the leg to the hand, not the other way round.

 

[GoldenWillow]

I find them useful for a small specific touch- particularly when small horses/small depth of barrel means I struggle to reach them otherwise (tho that's probably associated with my body failings too), I've had a lot of use out of my bluntended swan necks over the years and wish I'd found the before I did. I don't really get het up about whether other people choose to use them or not and it's rare that I've seen them on someone who doesn't have a secure lower leg.

Unfortunately from what I've been watching over the last months there are a lot of people using them that either have very insecure legs or have made a decision to use their legs strongly (kick) or turn their toes out. It's not confined to dressage or a new thing but it made me wonder them being used at lower level dressage.

Also remember it’s a competition, someone on the day will meet the criteria ‘most correctly’ and win. It’s not just a case of will the horse do the moves well, it’s will it be to the best of its ability. If it was easy we’d all be getting 80%+ at the lower levels! Clearly that does possibly raise some ethical questions, but if I think spurs will improve our performance, I’ll use them. Shock horror, my main horse is in a double and spurs at elementary.

Again, I am not bashing the correct and considered use of spurs (or double bridles) it was more a musing on whether there was a case for them only being used above a certain level like double bridles.

 

[GoldenWillow]

When I was a kid in Pony Club you had to have written permission of the DC to be allowed to ride in spurs. I don't think that was a bad thing!

I think there are plenty of people at prelim and novice level who are educated enough to ride in them, and they can be used totally appropriately at that level. Agree also that many people are wearing them without adequate understanding or ability to keep their leg still. How do you police it though without having overarching organisation that has a link to training and permissions... not sure, certainly not possible in the unaffiliated mass of competition.

Thank you for this post, this is exactly what I was meaning. Can it, could it, should it be policed in any way, would only allowing them above a certain level be a way of doing this? Or are there other ways.

 

[Cortez]

Thank you for this post, this is exactly what I was meaning. Can it, could it, should it be policed in any way, would only allowing them above a certain level be a way of doing this? Or are there other ways.

Yes, the judge should punish incorrect use of the spurs with low marks and in the comments.

 

[tristar]

Yes, a well judged poke the moment you feel the horse drop the contact and think backwards. It is called schooling, feel, thought and reward. But, it all hinges on a strong core and the ability to ride from the leg to the hand, not the other way round.

oh well, now we now, all we need is a poke in the ribs, the heights of finesse!