Square halts - a trick they learn, or the result of better engagement?

[kerilli]

just trying to start a little debate really, as i've heard people argue for both explanations.
when a horse learns to always halt square, and does it every time from then on, do you think it's a habit/trick it has learnt (because it knows it will be given a nudge if it doesn't square up, so it does it automatically), or a direct result of better balance and engagement?

 

[Marquire]

I think it's a bit of both

When I first started competing with my boy at prelim he never halted square. I could nudge him up into it some of the time but more often than not he would rearrange himself from one unsquare halt to another one. I think he was a bit confused about what I wanted.

As we've progressed to competing at elementary he nearly always halts square and I'm sure some of this is because he is more engaged than he used to be but I do think there is a degree of him 'learning' that a square halt is what I want.

Also I've found that because all the elementary tests get you to come in and halt at X and then trot away, he's found it easier to go straight from halt to trot when he's square than when he's not. Doing lots of halt-reinback has also help get a square halt, again becasue it must be easier for him to reinback from a square halt than fomr an unsquare on.

These are just my thought based on my boy.

marie

 

[TarrSteps]

Both.

I think you can teach a horse to square up automatically and it's a good habit to get into but if the horse and the rider are correct then the halt will flow naturally out of the other work. And if you are constantly correcting your chronically crooked horse (say that 5 times fast!) but the moment of halt isn't actually improving, odds are you're covering up an underlying issue rather than taking the opportunity to fix the problem.

I think this is a different issue than discussing why some horses "lose" their halts as they advance up the levels, by the way. That is more about the balance of relaxation vs. brilliance and the fine line between "good" and "bad" tension.

 

[kerilli]

interesting. i've never thought of the halt-reinback influencing it, prob because i was taught only ever to rein back from a perfectly square halt... takes a LOT of attempts sometimes.
fwiw, one of my old eventers got into the habit of halting square (eventually), and even when he was very old and had just been out for a lazy hack with a numptie on board, he'd get home and square up automatically, every time...

 

[RachelB]

I agree with the other replies, it's a bit of both.
My horse will, 99% of the time, halt square. She certainly didn't have a huge amount of engagement or a lot of balance, but she knew to halt square. She's built quite "square" as well so it probably comes naturally to her. A horse like Maiden would be easy to teach to always halt properly as she naturally wants to do it. Any "normal" horse naturally wants to be lazy and avoid it!
Yesterday in my lesson I was practising square halts, and only when I had the trot-walk *and* the walk-halt transitions spot on did I actually get a square halt. The horse is trained to medium and is certainly capable of doing it, but is the opposite of my horse and chooses not to. I can fiddle him into a square halt after I've halted by nudging and adjusting legs and seat bones, but getting the halt first time comes with a balanced, forward and engaged transition.

 

[Marquire]

I was taught the same but unfortunately when we first started doing novice tests I had no option but to reinback whatever the halt looked like because that was the next movement. Needlesstosay we had some SHOCKING reinbacks to start off with

I had one where he stepped back using both legs on the same side at once rather than in diagonal pairs. The judge said she had never seen anything like it before in all her years of judging.

Funnily enough like your old eventer he now also does a square halt after a leisurely hack. It's definitely a habit for him now.

 

[Baggybreeches]

Yep I agree its a bit of both, my big horse can do the most fantastic halt square when he is engaged and listening, but sometimes when I am being feeble

it is bad to start with and then gets worse the more you try to correct it. I used to have driving ponies who always had to stand square, but when riding it is preferable I think to produce a perfect square halt from a downward transition.

 

[Nickymac]

I'm just picturing what it feels like when I know (as near as damn it) that I'm going to do a good halt, and it makes me think it must be more about balance and engagement, and being on the aids. In a test I've given up trying to correct it if it feels like a bad one as I seem to make it ten times worse!

I've got an old boy who, despite having lots of creaky bits and therefore several good reasons not to halt square, always does, even when you lead him up to the mounting block. Surely that must be through habit after 17 years of me nagging him?

 

[Jemayni]

Just as no oone has mentioned it (I think) I consider conformation to have a significant influence too. For example; my 14hher has text book conformation, but has never really worked with a high degree of engagement (he can hold his own at affiliated novice level) nor has he been trained to stand square, yet 95% of the time he is square, whether he is under saddle or just in his box. Im sure its just the way hes built!

 

[Orangehorse]

I spent the whole of one schooling session once, trying to find out why my horse wouldn't halt square. After a bit of experiementation I discovered that if I only used one hand to sqeeze the rein she always made a beautiful halt. This tip I passed on to her new owner!

In theory, it should be because the horse is beautifully schooled, straight, engaged, etc. In practice, it is a COMPETITION and some ring-craft is required, so it is a bit of a trick too.

 

[Seahorse]

I used to show Axel in hand and have trained him to stand with his left hind slightly back, so I have had to untrain him and try and get him to stand square. Not very easy but with lots of perseverance he's getting there.
I do find that its easier to achieve when he's engaged, and when I'm just slopping around the school he will still halt with that leg further back. Although now he's learning to bring it underneath him, and he now will stand squarer even when tied on the yard!

 

[seabiscuit]

A direct result of better balance and natural engagement..

A horse that is really 'correct' in its back and totally comfortable, evenly muscled will always halt square when asked correctly.

When Owen's back got really bad he never halted square no matter what you did. After his KS op he was halting square again- just naturally- whether be it when you were leading him from the field and asked him to halt or whether you were riding him.
I've since realised that there is absolutely a correlation between a horse that is 'good and soft' in its back and a horse that is tight and sore in its back, because the soft horse will always halt square and the sore horse never will.

 

[carthorse]

I think it is important to give the aids to halt and allow the horse to finish his halt by giving slightly as he does it.This allows him to stand square without leaning onto the bit and the rein restricting the hindlegs

 

[RachelB]

[ QUOTE ]
Just as no oone has mentioned it (I think) I consider conformation to have a significant influence too. For example; my 14hher has text book conformation, but has never really worked with a high degree of engagement (he can hold his own at affiliated novice level) nor has he been trained to stand square, yet 95% of the time he is square, whether he is under saddle or just in his box. Im sure its just the way hes built!

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure it has to be *good* conformation though. As I said in my last reply, my horse nearly always halts square. My horse is, however, very badly built! She has very upright legs, a long back, she's built very "downhill"... you name it she's got it wrong with her! She does however have a leg firmly planted in each corner and will stand square most of the time whether she's being ridden or she's in the field. I've never seen the (much better-built) babies halting square, ever. I doubt one of them has actually realised she can control her legs yet

 

[wizoz]

My trainer always trains his horses from the word go to stand square. Every time he rides back into the yard the horse will be asked to stand, if it's not square it is made to be and then it has to stand still until he is ready to get off. So I think it's a bit off both because to execute a true halt the hind quarters are meant to be beneath the horse but they also learn that when they halt they do it with all 4 feet in the corners

 

[mat]

I was taught by my trainer that if you try to over correct a horse by tapping etc when they are stood to encourage them to move a leg, you can destroy the halt altogether, as you may encourage them to take a hind leg back to make itself square etc...
What I do to encourage a square halt is.. if the halt is crooked, move forward a few steps and ask again, obviously making sure I am sat even and straight, and the transition itself is soft.. it is a lot to ask to expect a young horse to halt square every time, and I find the less emphasis you put on it while they are young, the more likely you are to get a nice smooth transistion into a nice square halt later on in the training. It should definitely not be made into an issue.

 

[Judie]

Confirmation does play a part, my boy is American saddlebred x and he 'parks' his back legs, (leaves them out at the back), but with maturity and correct work we are getting better halts, although he is often still wide behind, but we'll get there with more engagement!

 

[SpottedCat]

After my lesson today I now feel able to join in this debate!

Firstly, a square halt is not necessarily an engaged halt - for example, a dog at crufts stands 'square' but does not have its 'hocks' underneath it.

Therefore a 'true' square halt of the kind we like to see in dressage is, I believe firmly, a direct result of balance, engagement and the horse seeking the contact with the rider giving the correct aids and allowing the release into the halt.

Quite how it is so easy to jump round a Novice BE track XC and yet so hard to go from walk to halt or indeed change the rein across the diagonal eludes me however!

 

[carolmalin123]

I am lucky that my mare usually halts square, the problem I have is that going down the centre line at the end of EVERY test, she cant wait to show everyone how nice and square she can halt, she rushes down the first bit and at the slightest indication from me that the halt is coming, she just does it, very abruptly, which feels like a rodeo horse impression! I struggle to get her to the right spot and try my best to make it as smooth as possible, consequently I NEVER practice halts!

 

[Lucy_Ally]

Spring pretty much always halts square when ridden and in hand, I wouldn't say she is particularly balanced or engaged (although reasonabley so), it's not something I have taught her or something I practice regularly - maybe she just finds it more comfy that way!