St. Nicholas Abbey

bonny said:
I never imagined they did ! They have alot of the best bloodlines in the world and alot of the best stallions already. I'm sure they can manage perfectly well without St Nicholas Abbey and that he is easily replaced. They obviously do hold him in high regard and their vets must think he has a chance of being saved for stud duties to have come this far in treating him. I really can't imagine why anyone would think the horse is better off dead....
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That is just it-they have some of the most sucessful blodlines in the world, and they are not going to let him go in case he is the next SW or Galileo or Montjeu etc. They will ship him out muddling quick if he is not s sucess after a couple of seasons and there'll be no qualms about it.

There is very little sentiment involved there.

He is being kept alive an treated in case he turns out to be a money spinner, irrespective of his qquality of life! Yes medical advances are important, but you have to balance it with what you put an animal through to.achieve what and why. It is incredibly selfish to put an animal through a massive amount for the sake of human sentiment, or business. If the 'fracture' was less severe I would not question attempts to keep him alive to.lead a useful life in the lap of luxury, but my personal opinion is that this is not the case.

It would be wonderdul if that is not the case, but that is just my opinion. It is neither right nor wrong, it is just my take on the situation.
How boring would life be of everyone agreed all the time? :wink3:
 
I've only just seen this, and I have no sound on my office PC but from just being able to see the picture I think he looks marvellous. Considering what he's been through he is bright, perky and seeing him weight bear on the injured leg is fantastic.

I have no doubt at all that if things do start to go wrong, Coolmore will let him go peacefully.

But at the moment he looks fantastic.

(I'd just be a bit wary of letting him pick up grass sitting on shavings! Having had colic I'd hate him to ingest any shavings).
 
He's said to be well and recovering and the news from Coolmore is all looking good. I thought it interesting that they said he is lying down alot as I assumed with his broken leg he would have to stand for weeks, shows what I know !
 
Just saw on Facebook that radiographs showed the steel weight-bearing pin in his cannon bone had broken after consultation, the surgeons decided to take it out. This was done on Monday night and the leg has been re-cast and St Nicholas Abbey is now bearing weight on the fractured leg.
 
Gosh it is a real long haul. I really hope it works out.
At least weight bearing the broken limb will ease the opposite one. If they took out the cannon bone nail what is being used to distribute the weight off the break? All those pins and plates are hardly holding his whole weight?
I have to say, it must be an incredibly stressful job looking after him. Especially seeing him get up and down from lying. My heart would be in my mouth! I always thought a lot of damage could be done then.
Here's hoping for a full recovery, I worry about his recovery though.
 
I do kinda feel sorry for the horse being put through all of this but he truely is receiving the best vet care money can buy.

I hope he recovers well enough to have his stud career but I have no doubt Coolmore will say enough is enough if the horse isn't coping.
 
http://www.racingpost.com/news/live.sd?event_id=1093474&category=0

Connections are saying this has happened sooner than they would have liked, I wonder how long the pin was meant to last before it was removed .

They praise his temperment which is obviously a godsend but he must also be having some sort of sedation to keep him calm. Poor lad I hope he makes a full recovery and becomes a really successful stallion.
 
Dobiegirl said:
http://www.racingpost.com/news/live.sd?event_id=1093474&category=0

Connections are saying this has happened sooner than they would have liked, I wonder how long the pin was meant to last before it was removed .

They praise his temperment which is obviously a godsend but he must also be having some sort of sedation to keep him calm. Poor lad I hope he makes a full recovery and becomes a really successful stallion.
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Why must he be having sedation?? far more likely he could do a worse injury sedated without full contro of his faculties and would not be helpful to his recovery post coic
 
This whole situation reminds me of the american racehorse Barbaro, who suffered a fracture, multiple operations and then ended up crippled with laminitis and was PTS a year later. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbaro.
It was so sad, the public really got behind him and the only justification for putting the horse through all this was his stud value. I hope Coolmore will know when enough is enough.
 
I would agree with those who are of the view that the decisions which were made, and are still in place, are made by those who take the fiscal view of all this, and there's nothing wrong with that, except that with such a massive trauma, and with such devastating damage, just how they think that this relatively young horse will stand up to the pressures of a stallion's work, is beyond me.

I have no problem with the horse enduring a degree of suffering, whilst he repairs, that's what happens with injuries, I just wonder if all of this is will be to no avail, and at the first attempts by the horse to express his normal coltish joy for life, all the work and worry of what will be several months, isn't all for nothing.

Wouldn't it be good to be proved wrong?

Alec.

Ets, claracanter, I've just read your offering regarding Barbaro, thank you for that, but it makes for uncomfortable reading, doesn't it? a.
 
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claracanter said:
This whole situation reminds me of the american racehorse Barbaro, who suffered a fracture, multiple operations and then ended up crippled with laminitis and was PTS a year later. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbaro.
It was so sad, the public really got behind him and the only justification for putting the horse through all this was his stud value. I hope Coolmore will know when enough is enough.
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Yup me too, I mentioned it a while back. There was a discussion about the merits of using such drastic measures to keep him alive so he can make it as a stallion. I know how I feel about it but they've gone down that road with him now and I really hope he comes through it all, it would be miraclulous. I really hope he comes out of it and has a decent quality of life, and what they are putting him through is worth it for the horse. He is a potentially valuable asset, but he is also an animal so it is tricky to balance it out I think. It would be truly fabulous if he did come right though. But as I said it's happening now so I can only wish and will him well.

ETA I think St Nicolas abbey is a bit different to Barbaro in that he is weight bearing, so the risk of compensatory laminitis is somewhat reduced. He is not standing in a sling, and can move about.

I still can't figure out what's taking his weight now that the cannon bone pin is out. I hope the pins and plates hold up and don't deform under pressure. Would that even happen? Such an interesting treatment.

That's what I was getting at Alec, I just couldn't get it out right!
 
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Alec Swan said:
Ets, claracanter, I've just read your offering regarding Barbaro, thank you for that, but it makes for uncomfortable reading, doesn't it? a.
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Yes it was awful. I was one of the ones who followed the story at the time, the daily updates and the videos of his progress. I wonder if these horses get caught up in a combination of vet's egos, unlimited resources, research opportunities and a quest for what is possible rather than what is best for the animal concerned. I'm not saying that that is what is happening with Abbey but don't you think if he was an average racehorse with an average owner/trainer the outcome would have already been decided.
 
claracanter said:
Yes it was awful. I was one of the ones who followed the story at the time, the daily updates and the videos of his progress. I wonder if these horses get caught up in a combination of vet's egos, unlimited resources, research opportunities and a quest for what is possible rather than what is best for the animal concerned. I'm not saying that that is what is happening with Abbey but don't you think if he was an average racehorse with an average owner/trainer the outcome would have already been decided.
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Absolutely. But your average racehorse isn't usually worth millions post racing. That is the only reason why he is being treated as he is. They are protecting/trying to assure their investment, save a potentialy extremely lucrative asset.
ETA not to say that's wrong, I think it is a perfectly reasonable reaction to have. It is a business, and if you can avoid making a loss you do what you have to do. It is at the edge of that justification for me though. The injury is catastrophic. If he pulls through to has a productive stallion career it would be fantastic, but i wonder how much the repair will stand up to.
 
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Whilst I think this is a tragedy both for this poor horse and his connections, I do wonder if he should be bred from. Surely an injury like this would suggest an inherant weakness? It does seem that nowadays the focus on TB's is purely speed, soundness is no longer valued.
 
Millikins said:
Whilst I think this is a tragedy both for this poor horse and his connections, I do wonder if he should be bred from. Surely an injury like this would suggest an inherant weakness? It does seem that nowadays the focus on TB's is purely speed, soundness is no longer valued.
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How helpful .....so Coolmore spend a fortune trying to save him and you think he's not worth it ! I suspect they considered that before they started.....
 
Millikins said:
On a very basic level, unsound stock shouldn't be used for breeding.
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Is there evidence of his bloodline being unsound ? Any horse, regardless of breeding, type and discipline can shatter a leg for no obvious reason.

This horse will being receiving the best care that veterinary science has to offer and every aspect of his future recovery would have been considered before any decisions where made to try and save him.

I hope Coolmore and the teams caring for this horse are rewarded for their efforts and the coming week is crucial for them as they have already explained to the world, following the set back.
 
gadetra said:
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I still can't figure out what's taking his weight now that the cannon bone pin is out.

.......!
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My understanding was that the pin mentioned, travelled through the cannon bone, and there would have been contact between the outsides of the pin, and the ground. That's how I understood it to work, but by drilling through the cannon bone, I'd have thought that the risk of internal infection would have been massive (obviously not), and I'd also wonder about the sole of the foot, and the frog in particular, and being suspended as it is, without any weight bearing, for such an extended period, would or could be the reason for secondary problems, as befell Barbaro, for instance. Not being a vet, I don't know!

It would be interesting to know if anyone has ever replaced an entire pastern bone with one which was artificial, as we and our dogs can have our hip joints replaced.

Alec.

Ets, again I don't know, but to answer your question, as the head of the Cannon Bone will flare out to meet the knee joint, perhaps a cast which has that "flare" sitting in the cup of a cast, would work, so that it would effectively be the knee which was weight bearing.
 
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AdorableAlice said:
Is there evidence of his bloodline being unsound ? Any horse, regardless of breeding, type and discipline can shatter a leg for no obvious reason.

I don't know in this case. I just think the TB breeding industry needs to look at itself to ask if the breed as a whole is being weakened. If St N A were a prize winning Shetland/hunter whatever, his stud fees would not recoup his vet bills and his genes would be removed from the pool. There were some good threads after the GN about whether more TB's than in the past were breaking legs on the flat.
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Millikins said:
AdorableAlice said:
Is there evidence of his bloodline being unsound ? Any horse, regardless of breeding, type and discipline can shatter a leg for no obvious reason.

I don't know in this case. I just think the TB breeding industry needs to look at itself to ask if the breed as a whole is being weakened. If St N A were a prize winning Shetland/hunter whatever, his stud fees would not recoup his vet bills and his genes would be removed from the pool. There were some good threads after the GN about whether more TB's than in the past were breaking legs on the flat.
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The NH bred TB is a rarity these days. Many of the horses, especially at lower levels, running over fences are flat bred and are weeds. I stood in the paddock at Hereford in the spring and 80% of the horses were tiny light boned types and certainly not bred for the purpose of getting 3 miles over fences. The horses were the waste from the flat I suppose and that heads us into a whole different subject !
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gadetra said:
I still can't figure out what's taking his weight now that the cannon bone pin is out. I hope the pins and plates hold up and don't deform under pressure. Would that even happen? Such an interesting treatment.
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If I was to compare it to human orthopaedic trauma surgery, the aim of the plating, screwing and pinning isn't to replace the bone as a weight bearing structure, but to hold the fracture fragments in place sufficiently for the bone to heal, become strong and able to bear weight by itself again. Whilst this happens, the patient is told not to weight bear for a while to reduce the risk of the bones moving around again and not knitting back together properly. I'm not saying that there is no weight bearing done by the plates themselves once the person is weight bearing again, but it wouldn't be the full weight of the person, it would be shared with the bone.

To make it relevant to this case, the pin took most of the load, and it has broken. The original fracture repair happened about 4 weeks ago (correct me if I'm wrong), which, if it were human, would be enough time for the fracture to have had a good start on its way to healing. Perhaps in the vets opinion, it was well on its way enough to take out and leave alone rather than expose him to another procedure. So the bone is taking the load, with a portion transmitted through the metalwork, which tends to be made of steel, titanium or cobalt, and I'm sure beefed up enough to be able to cope with such an animal.

There is a risk of the metalwork deforming, and this may be increased with the recent complication, but I should imagine it is still small, and I'd trust the vet.
 
Ah thanks for replies. That makes sense. When I seen it it looked as though the cannon bone pin went out to the cast, and dispersed his weight through the cast that way.
Having had unconnected bones pinned together myself, I was non weight bearing for 3 months! (and I am a bit lighter than a horse - I hope! :eek3: ) Hence why I was wondering about the strength of bone healing and metal. it would be incredible if the metalwork did not deform with the weight of him going through it. The break looked massively unstable, I would have thought any bone growth was like a spiders web at this stage.
Some animal all the same to withstand all that treatment and box rest.
I also wonder about laminitis, how long the feet can stand suspension as Alec said. That is my biggest con wen about the whole thing. The bones can hopefully, and will heal, but the lack of mobility and stimulation of the hoof and musclestructure will take an awful lot to get right. Can his feet stand it I wonder.
 
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I totally agree with the views expressed regarding unsound stallions. Is this bloodline unsound? Difficult to say. I do remember that when the three horses died in Dubai, Fox Hunt and Bronze Cannon both had Northern Dancer three times in their five generation pedigree, and Grand Vent twice. A short time later at Aintree Gottany Os I believe broke his leg, and he also had ND three times. SNA doesn't have that much ND, but he does have Native Dancer at least twice, and there is a theory that this is the root of some unsoundness. Bearing in mind that he will cover many hundreds of mares already inbred to ND and it is a worrying trend. Unfortunately Coolmore have an inexplicable obsession with this bloodline, and with Montjeu himself dead, and Dubawi/New Approach in the hands of You-Know-Who, well... very little will stop them trying to get this horse to stud. Soundness never bothers these boys - they stand NH stallions that were not exactly the paragons of soundness.
 
Louise12 said:
I totally agree with the views expressed regarding unsound stallions. Is this bloodline unsound? Difficult to say. I do remember that when the three horses died in Dubai, Fox Hunt and Bronze Cannon both had Northern Dancer three times in their five generation pedigree, and Grand Vent twice. A short time later at Aintree Gottany Os I believe broke his leg, and he also had ND three times. SNA doesn't have that much ND, but he does have Native Dancer at least twice, and there is a theory that this is the root of some unsoundness. Bearing in mind that he will cover many hundreds of mares already inbred to ND and it is a worrying trend. Unfortunately Coolmore have an inexplicable obsession with this bloodline, and with Montjeu himself dead, and Dubawi/New Approach in the hands of You-Know-Who, well... very little will stop them trying to get this horse to stud. Soundness never bothers these boys - they stand NH stallions that were not exactly the paragons of soundness.
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Coolmore need to look at how they have manipulated the TB breeding industry in the UK by standing a fleet of ND male line stallions & little else. True St Nicholas Abbey only has one line of Northern Dancer, but will still not be an outcross to mares. Coolmore have sought out ND stock over the years & swamped the gene pool with them. they have allowed larger & larger books of mares. Trouble is beginning to develop. they have had a number of high profile horses die in Group 1 & Group 2 events & now this horse has a catastrophic break. I remember Ian Balding saying the breed was weakening, & that was some years ago.
 
Louise12 said:
I totally agree with the views expressed regarding unsound stallions. Is this bloodline unsound? Difficult to say. I do remember that when the three horses died in Dubai, Fox Hunt and Bronze Cannon both had Northern Dancer three times in their five generation pedigree, and Grand Vent twice. A short time later at Aintree Gottany Os I believe broke his leg, and he also had ND three times. SNA doesn't have that much ND, but he does have Native Dancer at least twice, and there is a theory that this is the root of some unsoundness. Bearing in mind that he will cover many hundreds of mares already inbred to ND and it is a worrying trend. Unfortunately Coolmore have an inexplicable obsession with this bloodline, and with Montjeu himself dead, and Dubawi/New Approach in the hands of You-Know-Who, well... very little will stop them trying to get this horse to stud. Soundness never bothers these boys - they stand NH stallions that were not exactly the paragons of soundness.
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I am repeating myself here from previous threads - there is NOTHING wrong with Northern Dancer, he was a small wiry tough horse - he won 14 from 18 - there is no way he'd have had the influence he has if his offspring weren't tough and sound. Native Dancer, his damsire, won 21 out of 22 races. So he was pretty sound too!

There is virtually no similarity in the bloodlines of the three horses killed in Dubai until the 4th generation where Northern Dancer is great grandsire of Fox Hunt on the distaff line, and great grandsire of Grand Vent also on his distaff line.

Survival of the fittest dictates that sound horses tend to be the ones whose genes carry on. Sadler's Wells is a prime example - loads of his progeny carried on running as 5yos, or went jumping. Istabraq springs to mind, and Hurricane Fly is by a son of Sadlers Wells. Genes of various horses die out because the offspring don't win.

Is it not accepted that the direct influence of an ancestor is pretty much diluted by the third generation anyway?

Today I had another look at these horses on the RP, and Fox Hunt was trained by Al Zarooni. Who also trained Rewilding. I'd say the coincidence of losing two top class horses was probably more linked to training methodology than inbreeding. :(
 
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