Stable accident - Liability query

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Hello - At the moment I'm caught between 2 pals at the yard and their row over who is liable for a mishap that happened. Here's the story; There are a few of us who rent space at a farm yard. It is not a formal livery yard as such, and most of us have done up old stables. One girl (who is a friend) has a 15hh cob. She stabled him in an internal block which housed 2 stables. The cob broke/pushed though the other stable door to get at food - she previously used this space to store feed as there was no one else needing the stable. The cob damaged the concrete which the bolt went into, and also broke off the kick over latch at the bottom. At the time, I said to her that she needed to repair these to the original condition. Her partner fixed the top bolt hole (apparently) drilling a little bit of concrete out - in my opinion it was not secure enough and I said so. She made no effort to replace the kick latch. I reminded her on a couple of occasions this needed to be done.

10 days ago, another girl at the yard asked the farmer if she could bring her newly purchased 13.2 very fine welsh/TB. to which he replied yes, but it would need to be stabled in the internal stable next to the cob. At this point i stressed to the cob owner that the door NEEDED to be properly repaired ASAP as knowing the cob, he would try to get through and there could potentially be a problem. I told her this 2 days running, and I also mentioned it to the welsh/tb owner, and she too requested the bl**dy door be fixed. Alas it was not.

5 nights running the 'morning shift' person (we take it in turns to turn out) found the door pushed in at the top where the bolt was slipping out of it's hole. The door luckily jammed on concrete. The cob owner was made aware of this, but STILL did nothing. Last saturday am, the welsh owner arrived at the yard to find her pony well and truly duffed up. The pony has her winter coat on, and was soaked with sweat and trembling. She had cuts, swellings etc all over her. She was also incredibly distressed. The vet had to be called and the pony was sedated, given antibiotics, tetanus and some other medication. The vet decided not to stitch as the pony was in shock.

The owner of the cob is saying it is not her fault, so she does not need to pay anything (I'm getting the impression she is not insured, although she says she is). She has now agreed to pay 1/2, after great persuasion. The welsh owner is still upset and wants her to pay the full lot (approx £200). It's not quite bad enough, or financially viable to go down the legal route, but it's driving the rest of us mad! If I owned the cob, I would ask for the bill and sort it, along with a bottle of plonk. The cob owner is also denying she was ever advised to fix the door which enabled quite easy access, and the cob must have been provoked (????). I must say she is not being very gracious in my opinion. I have to careful what I write as they may see this! I have said that I think she has a moral and perhaps legal responsibility to cough up. The welsh pony who is unbroken, but very sweet natured and easy to do may not be as easy and willing as she was previously, and will have scars permanently.

Anyone else got any advice, experience etc?? Sorry to witter on, but the whole situation is getting silly and the rest of us are caught in the middle. Many thanks
 
The cob owner should have made good any damage her horse caused and equally the welshie owner should not a put her horse in a stable that was not secure. Both are too blame IMHO
 
As far as I'm concerned the money is irrelevant. I cannot believe that both owners showed such little regard for the well being of their horses that night after night they left them in a situation where one was bullying the other and nothing was done until the pony was injured.
Absolutely appallling.
 
Without commenting on rights and wrongs and who should pay what, one thought would be that if I'd have been bringing a pony in I'd have made sure myself that the door was safe and secure rather than leaving it hoping that someone else would do it. I wouldn't have put my pony in a box with a dodgy door for starters. :(
 
I must be getting old, im confused as to what actually happened? How did the cob get to the little pony? I get that door to the little pony was broken & not repaired but why was the cob loose to push on the door & get in with the pony?
 
I totally agree with your comments (like I said, they may have a look, so I have to be careful what I say). The welsh owner was not under the impression the cob was a bully, and for the first 5 nights, even though the door was pushed in, the welsh mare was not upset, and all seemed quiet and happy! The 2 seemed to get on well. I know this is not a good enough excuse. I have since been told that a few months ago the cob tried to get through a gate to have a pop at another pony - apparently he was booting the hell out of a gate. He is turned out with my 16.3 who can hop away from his bullying, so I personnaly have had no problem. He is a bit of a bolshy ***** with his owner (not with anyone else). I would have made every effort to secure the damn door, and I would not have put my horse in there.
 
horserider said:
As far as I'm concerned the money is irrelevant. I cannot believe that both owners showed such little regard for the well being of their horses that night after night they left them in a situation where one was bullying the other and nothing was done until the pony was injured.
Absolutely appallling.
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exatly
 
I understand that the door where the pony was wasn't secure because of the cob breaking through it but how did the cob get out of his stable to get in with the pony??

As I see it, the main fault is with the cobs owner, she should of repaired any damage that her horse had caused. If nothing else it's common decency!!! She should of also told the owner of the welsh if she hadn't done this in time. I do agree to some extent that the owner of the welsh shouldn't of put her pony in a stable with a dodgy door if she felt her pony was unlikely to escape and that the cob was 'secure' in it's stable and to her others were going to sort it then I don't see how she can be blamed. If it was my horse that attacked another then I'd be mortified and pay up!!
 
Most places have an "at your own risk" policy so the welsh owner will probably have to suck it up and pay out for the vet costs. That's the usual way things work on DIY livery yards or farms. As to the door, I'm not clear either on how the cob got out of his door and then opened the door to the pony's stable. Are they connecting doors? I think both owners are to blame tbqh. It doesn't matter who fixes the door but the door should have been fixed. In the interim perhaps suggest the pony owner gets a stall guard or chain fitted so that if the cob pushes the door again at least he won't be able to get into the stable with pony.
 
Most places have an "at your own risk" policy so the welsh owner will probably have to suck it up and pay out for the vet costs. That's the usual way things work on DIY livery yards or farms.
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I have experience of this!

A person at my yard put his horses in with mine without my consent-and his big one hair line fractured both of my horses' legs in minutes. He didn't pay a penny. £2000.

It sounds like a complicated situation. I hope it all simmers down and they can shake hands at the end of the day.
 
Quite simply it's none of your business - it's between the farmer and the cob owner.

Personally I'd move someone where buildings were constructed to a better standard.......
 
Cob owner should pay. However, if she IS insred, then any addmission of responsibility would render the policynull and void. I suspect that £200 may not be the end of it. There could be further damage to the poor mare that has not yet surfaced. She could have bone chips...anything really and may even require surgery. If I were her owner I would claim through my insurance but indicate that another party may be liable.
 
IMO it is both of their faults and the owner of the Welsh will have to foot the bill as that's the way the cookie crumbles on livery yards! Horses will be horses and if they aren't contained properly these things happen.

My horse got a small kick wound from another girl's horse in the field and I ended up forking out £500 vets bills because the other girl decided not to tell me that she had spotted the wound when she saw my horse that morning - by the time I saw her she was hopping lame and had infection setting in. :mad:
 
amymay said:
Quite simply it's none of your business - it's between the farmer and the cob owner.

Personally I'd move someone where buildings were constructed to a better standard.......
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Hahaha...those were my thoughts, having been on the end of people getting involved (not issues like these) and having to tell them it's between me and YO.
 
Blooming hell E Dickens! That was bang out of order! If he did it without permission and it was a field only for your use, he should have been made to cough up !! How unfair and horrible for you!!
 
xxMozlarxx - I am trying not to be involved. My horse has been there longer, I know the farmer and I have been dragged into it as I told one to fix the door and the other owner quoted me. I have now said to both I'm not interested and they need to sort it out. I was just posting to see if anyone had any clear knowledge of legally who was in the right etc. In the grand scheme of things, their petty row is quite small, but I feel very sorry for the injured pony, and she shouldn't have been in that situation. My horse can be a bit of a git to geldings if in the same field and I prob go a bit over the top to ensure any other horses are 100% safe from him. I don't' understand why others don't' do the same - takes very little to be careful.
 
Poor bloody horse, everyone knew it was an accident waiting to happen, nobody did anything ! If the owner of the horse that was attacked knew there was a problem, she effectively allowed it to happen, personally id never have put my horse at risk like that, for the sake of a kickbar and a bolt.
 
You actually asked what the legal position was, I believe that liability is more likely to rest with the owner of the yard, assuming he hasn't leased it as a whole to one of the occupants, and allowed sub letting. It must be the yard owners responsibility to ensure that the premises are safe and fit for purpose, he should also carry insurance to cover liability claims. Sadly if this is one of those cheapy casual arrangements none of you have any protection and the yard owner is wide open to a major legal claim in the event of a serious accident. Personally I would move my horse pronto,its just not worth being on yards like this.
 
The YO/Farmer should have made sure what he was renting was safe and secure otherwise what are you paying for. After he fixed the stable to a safe condition he then should pursue the money it cost from the cob owner as the maintenance side of it is between them. If you break something that was previously maintained and working then you should be responsible.
When my horse (a walking tank!!) knocked over a wooden fence he rolled on!! I paid for the wood and the YO fixed the fence.

The YO/Farmer shouldn't have rented out the stable knowing it was unsafe.

The pony owner should have checked where she was putting her pony, she is responsible for the care and welfare of her pony and do everything she can to keep that pony safe. She failed to do that.

OP, it's not your responsibility to manage the yard or be bossing people around and demand they fix things. If it's not affecting your horse then i don't know why your getting involved. If you were that bothered then you should have fixed the door yourself and informed the YO and the warned the pony owner.

If my horse injured another horse then i personally would offer to pay half of the vets bill but to be honest this story doesn't sound as clean cut as for example a horse kicking another in the field!
 
cyclo man said:
You actually asked what the legal position was, I believe that liability is more likely to rest with the owner of the yard, assuming he hasn't leased it as a whole to one of the occupants, and allowed sub letting. It must be the yard owners responsibility to ensure that the premises are safe and fit for purpose, he should also carry insurance to cover liability claims. Sadly if this is one of those cheapy casual arrangements none of you have any protection and the yard owner is wide open to a major legal claim in the event of a serious accident. Personally I would move my horse pronto,its just not worth being on yards like this.
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I agree. There have been numerous cases on here of horses breaking out of fields and damaging property, and the YO was responsible.. Its quite rare on here that I don't side with YOs, but in this case they have not done the maintenance on the property that they let out. You can't blame the horse owner - there is bound to be wear and tear/damage at a livery yard.. Its not money for nothing, even on the most basic yards there has to be repairs and maintenance.

When I first had my mare I had her on livery. The stable bolt was not safe, i pointed it out to the YO, they fixed it. Easy.

When we had DIYs at my yard we had no end of things broken, from gutters and trees being knocked down (trailers reversed into them) to fences and stables. We never expected anyone to repair it themselves - partly as we thought it was our issue, and partly so that we knew it was done properly! We stopped doing DIY as it was such a headache fixing everything and we were always worried about something happening!

In this case I would say that it is down to a general lack of care all round, but that if anyone should be being chased for money it is the YO. I think that the cob owner was more than generous to pay half.

ps. Had the cob owner fixed the door themselves, and had it broken and a nail gone in the other horse etc then they would be liable as they had done something to the YO's property without permission etc..
 
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cyclo man said:
You actually asked what the legal position was, I believe that liability is more likely to rest with the owner of the yard, assuming he hasn't leased it as a whole to one of the occupants, and allowed sub letting. It must be the yard owners responsibility to ensure that the premises are safe and fit for purpose, he should also carry insurance to cover liability claims. Sadly if this is one of those cheapy casual arrangements none of you have any protection and the yard owner is wide open to a major legal claim in the event of a serious accident. Personally I would move my horse pronto,its just not worth being on yards like this.
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Ditto this basically. IF I've understood correctly, you as DIY liveries are paying to keep your horses at this yard AND are also "doing up" the stables; the problem with this being there seems to be no one person in charge of things and its all a bit hit and miss.

We have a farm and have a DIY livery, and have relevant insurance etc. IF anything like repairs are needed then its OUR responsibility, not anyone elses!!! Also as YO/farmer we have the final say on what goes on, what horse goes where etc etc, tho' practically we are often quite happy for liveries to use their common sense and there's seldom a problem, BUT that ultimate right is and should be the YO. Sometimes people ask if they can do something, i.e. bang up another saddle rack, point out the light-bulb's gone etc (and frequently, bless 'em, replace it themselves coz they're helpful) BUT ultimate the owner/farmer carries responsibility and the buck stops with him/her!!!

Presumably (???) you've all signed agreements which state clearly who's responsible for what??? (please don't tell me that this is a set-up where there are no agreements in place).
 
Actually OP their argument is not 'petty' as you put it, and could have quite serious consequences for the farmer.... I hope he's insured.
 
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