Stable Aggression

[dorsetladette]

I think its the barn environment some horses really don't like being surrounded by horses.

We had one at work that would just kick the crap out of the walls and go mental when they walked past or came back in.

Good point!! I'm sure @Jay1430 mentioned the horse also didn't enjoy turn out with other horses. Can he be moved to one of the where he'll only have a neighbour on one side and then cover any bars etc so he isn't overlooked by other horses?

 

[Sandstone1]

I'm probably going to get a lot of stick for this but how about a water pistol. Fire it at his neck or body when he attacks you, not his face. I would not tolerate having a horse that tried to kick or bite me or others, no way.
This is not on and you cannot allow this to continue. You are doing both you and him a diss service by allowing this behaviour to escalate and you need to set boundaries.

I know you are looking for help so I don't mean to sound rude, it was the same with me many years ago when I bought a five year old ISH. He was a bolshy horse and used to push me against the side of the stable or the fence when tied up. It was a nightmare.

One day the vet came to give him his flu and tet. He asked me how I was getting on with him as he was the same vet that had vetted him. I told him what he was doing and he said that no amount of pushing or shoving will make any difference. He said to get a bic biro and with the blunt end shove it in his ribs when he next squashed me. I did and he jumped a couple of foot in the air. He did it another twice and that was that. Never did it again. Sometimes when your life is at risk you have to be cruel to be kind. A kick to the head could kill you.

I don't care if the horse was the sweetest horse in the world outside the stable, he should be the same inside and doesn't resp

Please do not do this. Its abuse. Get vet checked and some help.

 

[Birker2020]

Please do not do this. Its abuse. Get vet checked and some help.

Or just let the horse kick you in the head instead. For goodness sake get a grip. The OP needs to set boundaries before she or someone else gets hurt or killed.
Someone recently posted a video on the forum and I noticed it appeared that she reacted to a potential bite/actual bite by giving the horse in question a sharp smack on the nose.
Is that abuse too because not one person reacted to that? If it had of been me that had posted the video I'd have been hung, drawn and quartered for ever more.

In the wild another horse or its sire or dam would react a lot more sharply. A water pistol is hardly a weapon of mass destruction. Its a simple quick shockable deterrent that doesn't hurt the horse in the slightest.

I agree that if the behaviour continues outside the stable or when the horse is ridden the OP needs to get the vet involved, but as the behaviour is confined to its stable it doesn't appear that the vet will be much use.

 

[Arzada]

I'm sure @Jay1430 mentioned the horse also didn't enjoy turn out with other horses.

They did, possibly in the thread they couldn't find, but yesterday on this thread they posted that 'he gets on fab' with the horses he is turned out with

he has 12 hour turn out during winter & 24h turn out in summer. he’s turned out with other horses who he gets on with fab.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Or just let the horse kick you in the head instead. For goodness sake get a grip. The OP needs to set boundaries before she or someone else gets hurt or killed.
Someone recently posted a video on the forum and I noticed it appeared that she reacted to a potential bite/actual bite by giving the horse in question a sharp smack on the nose.
Is that abuse too because not one person reacted to that? If it had of been me that had posted the video I'd have been hung, drawn and quartered for ever more.

In the wild another horse or its sire or dam would react a lot more sharply. A water pistol is hardly a weapon of mass destruction. Its a simple quick shockable deterrent that doesn't hurt the horse in the slightest.

I agree that if the behaviour continues outside the stable or when the horse is ridden the OP needs to get the vet involved, but as the behaviour is confined to its stable it doesn't appear that the vet will be much use.

Often Birker I will allow that the forum overreacts to the things that you write, but suggesting that someone stabs their horse in the ribs with a biro is OTT and does border on abusive in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, when Dex first arrived he kicked me, the one and only time he has, he got an immediate slap straight across the @rse, hard, and chased from my personal space but I wouldn't stab him with something small and sharp - it crosses the line between reasonable force, and senseless pain.

 

[Amymay Again]

Often Birker I will allow that the forum overreacts to the things that you write, but suggesting that someone stabs their horse in the ribs with a biro is OTT and does border on abusive in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, when Dex first arrived he kicked me, the one and only time he has, he got an immediate slap straight across the @rse, hard, and chased from my personal space but I wouldn't stab him with something small and sharp - it crosses the line between reasonable force, and senseless pain.

I also think it should also be remembered that posters, such as the OP, are clearly inexperienced - and escalating the situation in the way described by @Birker2020 could end up seriously harming the handler.

I'm not opposed to a well timed slap. But I have experience of dealing with tricky horses. The OP doesn't, and needs clear, safe assistance in how to handle the situation.

 

[Sandstone1]

Or just let the horse kick you in the head instead. For goodness sake get a grip. The OP needs to set boundaries before she or someone else gets hurt or killed.
Someone recently posted a video on the forum and I noticed it appeared that she reacted to a potential bite/actual bite by giving the horse in question a sharp smack on the nose.
Is that abuse too because not one person reacted to that? If it had of been me that had posted the video I'd have been hung, drawn and quartered for ever more.

In the wild another horse or its sire or dam would react a lot more sharply. A water pistol is hardly a weapon of mass destruction. Its a simple quick shockable deterrent that doesn't hurt the horse in the slightest.

I agree that if the behaviour continues outside the stable or when the horse is ridden the OP needs to get the vet involved, but as the behaviour is confined to its stable it doesn't appear that the vet will be much use.

I dont care who posted it. Spraying a horse in the face or jabbing it with a pen is not going to help. Dont tell me to get a grip. I think you need to take your own advice.

 

[Capalldonn]

Are there well managed open stables in your area? That's where I would move him. I think his aggression is born out of fear. He doesn't feel safe in his stall because he's feeling entrapped there. Horses don't claim or defend territories, it's simply not in their nature!

Traditional horse keeping in individual stalls is the very opposite of how horses should be kept. It violates all their natural needs. It may have been a necessity in the past but is long outdated.

 

[Amymay Again]

Horses don't claim or defend territories, it's simply not in their nature!

They do, and it is.

 

[Capalldonn]

They do, and it is.

They do not. Some types of wild asses and zebras do (not all of them) and only when the stallion feels the need to defend his harem. Horses not.

 

[Birker2020]

I dont care who posted it. Spraying a horse in the face or jabbing it with a pen is not going to help. Dont tell me to get a grip. I think you need to take your own advice.

Dont accuse me of animal abuse then.

I wasn't suggesting she jab it with a pen. I gave an example saying that was what my vet had told me to do with my horse when it pushed me against the side of the stable because horses are into pressure so shoving and pushing against them just makes them do it more. Of course I should have just let it just puncture my lung once it had crushed my ribs against the side of the stable.

Maybe the OP can speak nicely to her horse over cake and a coffee when its about to knock her flying or attempts to double barrel her in the head.

 

[Birker2020]

[Deleted quoted content removed]

Wow. What a delightful creature you are -not

Showing your true colours evidently. You have a terrible habit of always resorting to insults don't you? At the expense of whoever might dare have their own opinion and disagrees.

Sorry OP. You do what you want to do but please be very careful. I'm leaving this thread now.

 

[Sandstone1]

Dont accuse me of animal abuse then.

I wasn't suggesting she jab it with a pen. I gave an example saying that was what my vet had told me to do with my horse when it pushed me against the side of the stable because horses are into pressure so shoving and pushing against them just makes them do it more. Of course I should have just let it just puncture my lung once it had crushed my ribs against the side of the stable.

Maybe the OP can speak nicely to her horse over cake and a coffee when its about to knock her flying or attempts to double barrel her in the head.

Deleted as I can not be bothered. Easier to put on UI

 

[Birker2020]

Just to make a point most horses are not in to pressure. They move away from pressure . The odd one will be into pressure but its rare.

I'm sorry. You are incorrect. Horses are into pressure. Remember that next time one stands on your foot and you try to push it away with your hands!

 

[shortstuff99]

Is he stabled next to his field friends? Is there bars between the stables or solid wall?

What is his first reaction to you when you open the stable door? What is his reaction if a stranger opens the door? Did he have a period of box rest or veterinary treatment proceeding the change? Has he had a lot of homes?

 

[Clover Girl]

Steve Young deals with a fair few of these and it’s fairly interesting how he solves it. It’s all on YT. Might give you some ideas. Essentially it’s a defensive behaviour in their own space. You can solve it but will need to be disciplined about it.

Steve Young is an absolute genius, I love his videos

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Thing is some horses are fine in a field with other horses but are not keen on them when they are stabled, it definitely is a bit of a territory safe space type thing for some being in there stable, so having horses coming near all the time can irritate and cause aggression.

I can appreciate horses don't naturally get territorial but being in a stable is not natural for them either is it.

 

[stangs]

They do, and it is.

They do not. Some types of wild asses and zebras do (not all of them) and only when the stallion feels the need to defend his harem. Horses not.

Depends on how you define territoriality. If you call resource guarding "resource-oriented territoriality", then sure they can show territorial-like behaviours. But as Capalldonn says, horses (like takhis, plains zebra and mountain zebra) just do not show geographic territoriality. They don't guard space - and there's lots of very interesting work on poo piles as evidence of this - but they might guard resources in a certain space while they're occupying it. You might argue that, in the case of the stable, safety/the feeling of being enclosed is the resource.

Or, more simply, OP's horse can't use a flight response while stuck in a stable so they're resorting to fight.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Good point!! I'm sure @Jay1430 mentioned the horse also didn't enjoy turn out with other horses. Can he be moved to one of the where he'll only have a neighbour on one side and then cover any bars etc so he isn't overlooked by other horses?

I'm sure the horse is in a barn mentioned up thread.

 

[Sandstone1]

I'm sorry. You are incorrect. Horses are into pressure. Remember that next time one stands on your foot and you try to push it away with your hands!

Ok, I will bite, Horses are in to pressure to some degree but learn by pressure and release. Obviously due to their size and weight us pushing against them is ineffective. What I mean by " In to pressure" horses are that some will lean in to pressure. Watch some Steve Young videos to see what I mean. I probably did not word it well. However, the advice you are giving out is abusive. Its positive punishment. I am not suggesting the OP does not keep themselves safe at all but suggesting spraying with water or jabbing with a pen is not going to help. What will help is making sure the horse is not in pain, looking at management if the horse is unhappy in its stable and getting some professional help.
You should not advise cruel and abusive methods. I would suggest you do a bit more research on " In to pressure horses" and make sure you understand it rather than simply screen shotting articles from the internet, you need to understand what it means.

 

[Capalldonn]

I can appreciate horses don't naturally get territorial but being in a stable is not natural for them either is it.

Of course it is not. Which is exactly why we need to take a closer look.

I'm still pretty new here and happy that usually it suggested to have a horse checked for pain, ulcers etc. when it shows behavioural issues. But we need to raise awareness for natural behaviour and needs as well. Many people think they know what natural or let's call it "normal" behaviour looks like but they only know how horses behave under stress. I hope everyone can see how unfair it is to discourage or even punish a horse for showing signs of discomfort and distress just because it's considered normal "dominant or territorial" behaviour.

 

[dorsetladette]

I'm sure the horse is in a barn mentioned up thread.

I'm sure I read a barn of 4 stables with him being in a back corner - this could be in my head though. So if possible bringing him to the front would mean he had less neighbours which might make him feel calmer. Although now that he is turned out with friends and is happy about that it puts a different light on things. Also it sounds like he has recently changed routine from 24/7 turn out to in at night for his 'winter routine'

 

[honetpot]

does anyone else have this problem, my gelding is in unbelievable sweet outside the stable, ridden is perfect and will give u love all day long. however if hes in the stable you cannot go near him without him biting, lundging, kicking etc. he’s getting too dangerous but i cannot tell him off as he bites then immediately turns and runs away and chasing him will just make it worse. i’m really stuck and it’s making me consider selling him. literally any advice will be so appreciated

I horse terms he is telling you to leave him the f alone. I would be looking at what I was doing to make him like this, its newish behavoir, once they are in a box its hard for them to get away, so they end up being agressive.
If someone is doing something to them that they see as stressful in a box, the person coming through the door is someone to defend themselves from, and you say he seems happy out of the stable. I would just avoid the situation, and make a management plan that makes going in to the stable with him a rare thing.
I had a pony that I sold as four old that I bought back at nineteen. When I sold him at four he had perfect manners, when he came back if you walked in the stable he would turn his bum to you and hide in a corner, and keep moving away. From his reaction to touching his face and mane someone had either walloped his face or over pulled his mane, being near people was now not his choice, his last owner was actually frightened of him. It took about six months for him to revert back to our old relationship, mainly leaving him alone and making interactions positive ones, for him.

 

[Birker2020]

Often Birker I will allow that the forum overreacts to the things that you write, but suggesting that someone stabs their horse in the ribs with a biro is OTT and does border on abusive in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, when Dex first arrived he kicked me, the one and only time he has, he got an immediate slap straight across the @rse, hard, and chased from my personal space but I wouldn't stab him with something small and sharp - it crosses the line between reasonable force, and senseless pain.

Thank you for your comment ASBMO

I wasn't talking about the OP pushing the blunt end of a BIC biro into her horses ribs though was I????? Furthermore I didn't say anything about 'sharp' or 'stabbing' those are your interpretations, entirely contrived and unfair.
As I took great pains in my reply to Sandstone when she said that I was wrong and horses are not into pressure, they clearly are. So pushing against something weighing 3/4 ton and squashing you against a fence or stable wall so you struggle to catch you breath (a terrifying situation) isn't going to stop if you push against it, it will just push against you more! Something with a smaller blunt surface is much more effective.

As I said in my original reply below and in reply 41 I wasn't suggesting she jab it with a pen. There wouldn't be much point as its not barging her against the wall and squashing all the air out of her lungs or cracking her ribs is it????

I actually wrote the below (with the bit in red talking about my own experience)

I'm probably going to get a lot of stick for this but how about a water pistol. Fire it at his neck or body when he attacks you, not his face. I would not tolerate having a horse that tried to kick or bite me or others, no way. This is not on and you cannot allow this to continue. You are doing both you and him a diss service by allowing this behaviour to escalate and you need to set boundaries.

I know you are looking for help so I don't mean to sound rude, it was the same with me many years ago when I bought a five year old ISH. He was a bolshy horse and used to push me against the side of the stable or the fence when tied up. It was a nightmare.

One day the vet came to give him his flu and tet. He asked me how I was getting on with him as he was the same vet that had vetted him. I told him what he was doing and he said that no amount of pushing or shoving will make any difference. He said to get a bic biro and with the blunt end shove it in his ribs when he next squashed me. I did and he jumped a couple of foot in the air. He did it another twice and that was that. Never did it again.

Sometimes when your life is at risk you have to be cruel to be kind. A kick to the head could kill you.

I don't care if the horse was the sweetest horse in the world outside the stable, he should be the same inside and doesn't respect you.

Now I am going to vacate this thread as we are all aware that it will lead down a rabbit hole of hell for me which some people may be hellbent on pursuing.

 

[Glitter's fun]

does anyone else have this problem, my gelding is in unbelievable sweet outside the stable, ridden is perfect and will give u love all day long. however if hes in the stable you cannot go near him without him biting, lundging, kicking etc. he’s getting too dangerous but i cannot tell him off as he bites then immediately turns and runs away and chasing him will just make it worse.

I can see why people are confused as to when & where he does this. How does he run away in a stable?

However that's not the main point...

i’m really stuck and it’s making me consider selling him. literally any advice will be so appreciated

Jay, as this thread amply demonstrates, if you ask on-line you are going to get a big range of answers, some from wise people who have worked with horses for decades, right down to some from people who just like the sound of their own voice and would rather make things up than admit they don't know the answer.

Since this is a potentially dangerous problem that has been going on for a while I would strongly advise you to bring in a behaviourist/trainer who can show you what to do. It will be money well spent, especially as you say you are considering selling the horse . You will use what you learn with future horses too. Do some research locally & get the best you can afford (and do ask them again if they are certain it isn't physical).

 

[Lois Lame]

I used to have a mare who had been kept short of food, while being at the bottom of the herd. She was very protective of any food that she had, including hay and bucket feed. She wasnt keen on being rugged or tacked up either.
I got her over it by making sure that she had plenty of hay, putting that and her bucket feed in the stable before bringing her in and being able to stand in the walkway behind her stable, close to her hay but where she couldn't reach me. I was lucky in the set-up at the livery yard.

Then in the summer I fed her out of a bucket held over the wall. It took about a year for her to be comfortable with having someone in the stable with her.

The key was making sure that she was never hungry, or afraid that she wouldn't have enough to eat.

Does your horse have ad-lib forage?

When I was about 18, I knew of a TB who worried me due to his behaviour in his stable. It never occurred to me that he might have been protective of his feed - something that dismays me now. At the time, I put it down to his 'awful temperament' but he might have had very good reason to behave the way he did.