Stable Tax (rates on private yards)

Unfortunately you need to stop thinking about it as business rates and use the proper name 'non domestic rates' - nothing at all to do with business. If your stables are not domestic (per the definitions - and the attachements have been really insightful) then non domestic rates are due.

You could argue your non domestic rates pay for things like police cover for that part of your property, or road access to it, or disposal of waste (taken to the local tip) generated on that land.
A lot of tax is paid for things not directly linked to something you get in return

Based on the stuff I've read on this - if I didn't have the curtilage protection I'd be arguing the land is agricultural and all I did was graze them (mine all live out 24/7 and have no supplemental feed) or I'd even argue that I'll eat them - when I feel they are mature enough to eat !! I don't know how they would prove that they weren't being raised for meat - eventually when their time comes I don't mind if mine are PTS at home then fed to lions at the local zoo.
 
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Polos Mum said:
I don't know how they would prove that they weren't being raised for meat - eventually when their time comes I don't mind if mine are PTS at home then fed to lions at the local zoo.
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Because they have been signed out of the food chain in their passports (if that is the case) presumably.

This is very interesting as a neighbouring house whose stables and land are across the lane has just been sold to some people who don't keep horses - I wonder if they are aware of this. Not that our council appears to be going down that route atm.
 
I spoke to solicitors & consultants who knew nothing about these laws. Luckily we won our case, it would be cheaper to have the horses on livery than the cost of the rates!
Our planning permission is for private use only, yet they want non-domestic rates but you can claim 'small business rate relief' all very contradictory.
I did get a small article written in H&H about this and have tried to raise awareness. I see this as a tax on horse owners.
 
Polos Mum said:
Genuine question - isn't that just the human food chain? can't they still be used for dog food?

I'd hold off signing that bit in the passport for several £k in rates a year
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Yes I think it is the human food chain really but I doubt that dog food manufacturers would want the medications in their meat. And as for holding off signing the passport, that's ok if you breed and keep your horses until pts but if you buy/sell on that might not be possible.
 
My stables and school have no additional draw on the local Police, Highways, refuse collection, etc. Dirty robbing bar stewards!
 
case895 said:
My stables and school have no additional draw on the local Police, Highways, refuse collection, etc. Dirty robbing bar stewards!
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Echo this, and not only that but I spend money keeping the land and environment in good shape, like farmers do. What about those people who don't have any more disposable income other than what they spend on their animals welfare? They can't have what you haven't got, and selling horses isn't often an option, most aren't worth a great deal now and they will be worth even less if this comes in across the country.
 
case895 said:
My stables and school have no additional draw on the local Police, Highways, refuse collection, etc. Dirty robbing bar stewards!
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And neither does a couple who live in a big house, who use a fraction of the council resources compared to a family of four in a three bed, but pay more. It's the way our rates system works, you have more assets, you pay more.

This is not getting at horse owners, even though it feels like they suddenly changed the rules. The only thing that is really 'unfair' about it is that people like me who have our stables and arena next to the house don't have to pay it. My friend put hers at the bottom of her land, she's going to be regretting that soon :(

Some of the amounts people are being asked to pay for an arena seem pretty huge though :(
 
Digger66 said:


But you rely on roads to get there and to have hay delivered and you would call the police if your tack was stolen, or go to the hospital if you fell off.
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Riders pay council tax on their homes just like the person who keeps and stores a large boat for pleasure there's no difference .
 
I do think that many people will get rid of equine facilities. My horses live out anyway. The stables can be converted to an open barn and used for farm machinery storage. The school can go too, it has porous tarmac under it, so with the sand gone it could become part of the yard.
 
I think the classification of an arena as a 'building' is a bit over the top. I wonder if anyone has challenged this? After all, it's really only a collection of loose materials with a membrane, and a fence does not count as building work. So unless people have had super duper arenas with concrete foundations etc put in, then everything can be easily removed and the field returned to its original state. I haven't heard of anyone being charged non-domestic rates for having an area of hard standing in a field, so I don't see why they should be charged for an arena. To me this does seem to be an attempt to milk horsey people because they are seen as wealthy.
As for this idea that 'you might hire your arena out to other riders', do we not live in a country where you are innocent until proven guilty? Why this assumed law-breaking? I can't help but feel that there must be some area of British law that prohibits assumed guilt and the punishment of it at the point of assumption.
What about those people who have their arenas within their curtilage? Are they assumed to be innocent of hiring the arena out? Or are they also assumed to be guilty even though the council cannot 'do' them for tax?
Honestly, this situation is making me want to put a whopping 60x40 arena in my garden just to cock-a-snoot at the money-grubbing little bar-stewards!
 
Goldenstar said:
Riders pay council tax on their homes just like the person who keeps and stores a large boat for pleasure there's no difference .
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And if your stables are part of your home (curtilage) then that's all you will pay as a horse rider too

If you have a separate property to keep your boat - then you pay non domestic rates on it - same as horse riders
 
Faracat said:
I do think that many people will get rid of equine facilities.
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It's only an issue if they aren't in the curtilage of your home - and as there is no definitive definition of what that is - unless your facilities are miles away from your home - this is the route to argue until the council get bored/ realise its not worth the effort for your particular property.
 
Well after reading everyone's comments (I haven't read the links) this is very worrying, I don't have an arena but have a barn/tack room and 2 stables together, the last comment ^ does give me hope that we will be able to argue distance and not have to pay this :(
 
*Sahara said:
Well after reading everyone's comments (I haven't read the links) this is very worrying, I don't have an arena but have a barn/tack room and 2 stables together, the last comment ^ does give me hope that we will be able to argue distance and not have to pay this :(
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I may do what Faracat said and turn the barn/stables into storage if this goes wrong :( again very worrying and unfair.
 
this is extremely worrying, i will have to give up completely if/when this comes into effect, i have a couple that would be queationable on weather i could even responsibly rehome atall and im not sure after renting my own place for so long i could cope with livery yard politics and dramas
 
rowan666 said:
this is extremely worrying, i will have to give up completely if/when this comes into effect, i have a couple that would be queationable on weather i could even responsibly rehome atall and im not sure after renting my own place for so long i could cope with livery yard politics and dramas
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I have just told my family about this and my mother seams to think it won't work as there will be a major argument put forth if this gets out to people asap.
 
rowan666 said:
this is extremely worrying, i will have to give up completely if/when this comes into effect, i have a couple that would be queationable on weather i could even responsibly rehome atall and im not sure after renting my own place for so long i could cope with livery yard politics and dramas
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Please don't panic - this has been in effect forever - the rules have changed in decades. For this to start to effect you
1) you council has to decide this is a profitable avenue to start investigating and employ people/ agencies to start sending letters
2) the council then has to follow up with everyone who doesn't tick a box on a form saying 'please do charge me rates'
3) independent rates assessment on your property
4) legal challenge to that - with very weak guidance - everything official starts with ... "this is a grey area" the council have to be bothered/ find the funds to fight every property individually

This is something that has always been in place - no panic
 
Polos Mum said:
Please don't panic - this has been in effect forever - the rules have changed in decades. For this to start to effect you
1) you council has to decide this is a profitable avenue to start investigating and employ people/ agencies to start sending letters
2) the council then has to follow up with everyone who doesn't tick a box on a form saying 'please do charge me rates'
3) independent rates assessment on your property
4) legal challenge to that - with very weak guidance - everything official starts with ... "this is a grey area" the council have to be bothered/ find the funds to fight every property individually

This is something that has always been in place - no panic
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Thank you Polo, this sounds much better, I indeed was in a panic over this :(
 
Sorry Polo, but I don't think you are right that people should not be concerned.

No, the law has not changed, but Councils' attitudes to it have, and in many areas of the country they they are pursuing this source of revenue.

If they say that you owe it, you owe it, unless you prove that you don't.

If you fight it, our goes to a rates tribunal, and a friend of mine is chairman of the regional rating appeal tribunal. He is seeing cases like this on a regular basis, has a set of guidelines for what constitutes curtilage, and sent me papers of two cases last year, one allowed and one rejected.

This is a real issue.
 
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I also think everyone should be worried about this. It seems to be creeping from one area to another, possibly deliberately to avoid a mass backlash.
It would be interesting to know which councils have pursued this tax so far. As far as I know kent county council hasn't caught on yet, but perhaps someone knows better.
 
Digger66 said:


But you rely on roads to get there and to have hay delivered and you would call the police if your tack was stolen, or go to the hospital if you fell off.
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I make my own hay and council tax does not fund the Health Service. Our road is adopted by the Council but they decline to maintain it. The pot holes are so deep I have to put the Disco's suspension in to off road mode.
 
Have been doping some research. The reason it was not pursued by Councils before was that there was and is 100% relief until April 2016 as stated above , so it was just a waste of money for the Councils before. There is a legal precedent where a yard and school with Planning Permission for "Private Use " only appealed on the basis it had no rentable value because of the restriction on the Planning Permission - they won. So unless your land has open planning and it is possible for the stables to be rented out then Non Domestic rates are not due. Check the Planning Permission for your land if it is Private then find the name of the legal case and appeal on the basis that you are not allowed to rent out your facilities or go to the Ombudsman that is free. as far as the Birmingham Company is concerned they are acting on behalf of the Valuation Office who sets the Non- Domestic Rates, alternatively bring this up with them " How can the land/facilities have a rentable value when your Planning Permission does not allow you to rent them out?" Most permissions since 2000 ish have conditions on them it is those that have been in use for many years that do not. If you are not sure go to the Planning Office and ask for details of your planning, they have them all in archives if they are not recent. As far as services, such as bins are concerned Non Domestic Rates do not have advantages of services that Council Tax does. Everyone who is charged them is in the same boat on that one. I was a Senior Manager at a local authority for 30 years and would always challenge them if necessary, they are not always right!!
 
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If there is 100% rate relief until April 2016, why have people been receiving bills backdated for six years?
 
old hand said:
Have been doping some research. The reason it was not pursued by Councils before was that there was and is 100% relief until April 2016 as stated above , so it was just a waste of money for the Councils before. There is a legal precedent where a yard and school with Planning Permission for "Private Use " only appealed on the basis it had no rentable value because of the restriction on the Planning Permission - they won. So unless your land has open planning and it is possible for the stables to be rented out then Non Domestic rates are not due. Check the Planning Permission for your land if it is Private then find the name of the legal case and appeal on the basis that you are not allowed to rent out your facilities or go to the Ombudsman that is free. as far as the Birmingham Company is concerned they are acting on behalf of the Valuation Office who sets the Non- Domestic Rates, alternatively bring this up with them " How can the land/facilities have a rentable value when your Planning Permission does not allow you to rent them out?" Most permissions since 2000 ish have conditions on them it is those that have been in use for many years that do not. If you are not sure go to the Planning Office and ask for details of your planning, they have them all in archives if they are not recent. As far as services, such as bins are concerned Non Domestic Rates do not have advantages of services that Council Tax does. Everyone who is charged them is in the same boat on that one. I was a Senior Manager at a local authority for 30 years and would always challenge them if necessary, they are not always right!!
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Thank you for the research old hand, very helpful :)
 
old hand said:
Have been doping some research. The reason it was not pursued by Councils before was that there was and is 100% relief until April 2016 as stated above , so it was just a waste of money for the Councils before. There is a legal precedent where a yard and school with Planning Permission for "Private Use " only appealed on the basis it had no rentable value because of the restriction on the Planning Permission - they won. So unless your land has open planning and it is possible for the stables to be rented out then Non Domestic rates are not due. Check the Planning Permission for your land if it is Private then find the name of the legal case and appeal on the basis that you are not allowed to rent out your facilities or go to the Ombudsman that is free. as far as the Birmingham Company is concerned they are acting on behalf of the Valuation Office who sets the Non- Domestic Rates, alternatively bring this up with them " How can the land/facilities have a rentable value when your Planning Permission does not allow you to rent them out?" Most permissions since 2000 ish have conditions on them it is those that have been in use for many years that do not. If you are not sure go to the Planning Office and ask for details of your planning, they have them all in archives if they are not recent. As far as services, such as bins are concerned Non Domestic Rates do not have advantages of services that Council Tax does. Everyone who is charged them is in the same boat on that one. I was a Senior Manager at a local authority for 30 years and would always challenge them if necessary, they are not always right!!
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I think you may have been misinformed on this case especially as you do not know the name involved and cannot quote the case for anyone to research it. Certainly in the region for which my friend is head of rating appeals, this has nothing whatever to do with whether the premises has any business value, and is solely to do with how close it is to the domestic property of the user.

It is non-domestic rates, not business rates. Horses are not classed as domestic . For example, if you take your used haylage wrappers to the local tip, they have every right to charge you to tip them. I tip I small quantities hidden in a big load for that reason.
 
cobgoblin said:
If there is 100% rate relief until April 2016, why have people been receiving bills backdated for six years?
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Because you have to apply for the relief and they are banking on people being worried/ busy/ paniced into coughing up rather than working out what the options are. They don't have to tell you you don't have to pay it when they send you the bill (sadly!)

I don't disagree it's a real issue - but it's been around for ages (do a search on here and you'll some v old threads on this subject) and given the 1000's of private horse yard owners on here (and friends of ours) does anyone actually know anyone who pays any (or will start to pay when the reliefs run out in March 2016)

If you have a big property separate from your home - it's a risk and they'll probably catch up with you at some point - but there's nothing you can do about it so worry about things in your control for now and keep your head down!
 
Old hand - they did not accept the fact that our planning permission was for private use only as acceptable in our appeal. You have to prove that the facilities are within the domestic curtilage of your property.
 
The problem is, that with the rate relief running out next year, the councils will be rushing to milk the cash cow. Properties with stables will be singled out and pounced on. I wonder if the 100% rate relief for the last five years can be applied for retrospectively or if the councils have left the assessment until this time so that back claims cannot be made. As I understand it non domestic rates are assessed every five years.
 
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