Stabled horses and the Animal Welfare Act...your thoughts??

It does always turn into 24/7 vs stabling of any kind. I don't get why it's always the 24/7 that start this kind of debate though, if you are happy with how you keep yOur horse, good for you. I really dont see enough 24/7 turnout horses round here being excercised appropriately or even seen to regularly, just because they are out up to there knees I mud doesn't mean rugs shouldn't be changed daily etc.

I really think there are fields of poor looking horses and ponies with little care outside of the weekend, whose owners think it's fine as they are living naturally (which they are not as they would be free to find a better place to stand out of the wind and mud), I beleive this is much worse than being stabled for half of the day, IMO.

The point is it's my opinion, everyone is entitled to one so why the constant debate.
 
PollyP99 said:
I don't get why it's always the 24/7 that start this kind of debate though
Click to expand...
Was it in this case? That isn't obvious to me.

I really think there are fields of poor looking horses and ponies with little care outside of the weekend, whose owners think it's fine as they are living naturally (which they are not as they would be free to find a better place to stand out of the wind and mud),
Click to expand...
I guess the ones that are outside and suffering are more obvious than the ones that are inside and suffering. (Not that I am saying that being inside or outside necessarily means they are suffering!)

I beleive this is much worse than being stabled for half of the day, IMO.
Click to expand...
Stabled half of the day doesn't sound bad at all to me.
 
I think the 24/7 vs. stabled debate is beside the point.

What I don't understand is why horse owners (as consumers paying quite a big chunk of money for livery) do not press for alternative yards with more horse-friendly livery arrangements. E.g. large, shared indoor stables for small groups of horses, with access to small all-weather turnout paddocks as an alternative to individual stables. It does not necessarily take more land to build stables that allow horses to be kept in small groups with free access to outdoor space (which does not have to equal green fields with grass, or muddy trashed fields!). I do understand that there are many old facilities where a complete overhaul would be out of the question. But even new builds are still based on the old concept one horse - one stable.

On the continent, they seem to be much farther along and there are many new facilities that aim to be more horse friendly than the old stable setup. It's come about due to consumer demand. Why is there no such demand in this country? I do think it is because many horse people are traditionalists and cannot picture their horses in other living arrangements.
 
Last edited:
PollyP99 said:
It does always turn into 24/7 vs stabling of any kind. I don't get why it's always the 24/7 that start this kind of debate though, if you are happy with how you keep yOur horse, good for you. I really dont see enough 24/7 turnout horses round here being excercised appropriately or even seen to regularly, just because they are out up to there knees I mud doesn't mean rugs shouldn't be changed daily etc.

I really think there are fields of poor looking horses and ponies with little care outside of the weekend, whose owners think it's fine as they are living naturally (which they are not as they would be free to find a better place to stand out of the wind and mud), I beleive this is much worse than being stabled for half of the day, IMO.

The point is it's my opinion, everyone is entitled to one so why the constant debate.
Click to expand...

Exactly! I'm off out in a minute to bring mine in for the night.
 
SpringArising said:
Huh? What does that have to do with anything, and why do they need to be exercised?
Click to expand...

Not leaving the same piece of land EVER is not a life I would want, that's how some are kept around here, as in that's all they ever see, not ridden, never leave the paddock they are in, chucked hay over the gate, that's it. Just as odd I think in terms of behaviour, was my point.
 
I have to say I agree that by stabling horses we are preventing them from exhibiting natural behaviour.

The exception to this would be a group of horses kept in a large barn.

I think the same about horses on individual turnout, those in small muddy paddocks and those who are stabled the majority of the time. All of these prevent natural behaviour being exhibited and yes I do believe all of them are cruel unless needed for medical reasons.

I recognise that many horses are conditioned to being stabled much of the time and may even opt for this if the only turnout provided is unsuitable.

What really irritates me is that people often say they don't have a choice about turnout and justify keeping a horse stabled 24/7 because their yard limits turnout, for me there is always a choice which is not to have horses.
 
supsup said:
I think the 24/7 vs. stabled debate is beside the point.

What I don't understand is why horse owners (as consumers paying quite a big chunk of money for livery) do not press for alternative yards with more horse-friendly livery arrangements. E.g. large, shared indoor stables for small groups of horses, with access to small all-weather turnout paddocks as an alternative to individual stables. It does not necessarily take more land to build stables that allow horses to be kept in small groups with free access to outdoor space (which does not have to equal green fields with grass, or muddy trashed fields!). I do understand that there are many old facilities where a complete overhaul would be out of the question. But even new builds are still based on the old concept one horse - one stable.

On the continent, they seem to be much farther along and there are many new facilities that aim to be more horse friendly than the old stable setup. It's come about due to consumer demand. Why is there no such demand in this country? I do think it is because many horse people are traditionalists and cannot picture their horses in other living arrangements.
Click to expand...

Which part of the continent are we talking about, France for example have a really high percentage of horses kept in 24/7, these are normal riding schools, everyone I went to had almost no land, totally bizarre as land is cheap and plentiful.
 
I never said everyone who keeps a horse out is an imbecile, Princess16. Nor is everyone who keeps a horse in a stable cruel!! There is more than one 'right way' to keep a horse- all horses are different, as are all owners and their situations.
You just have to compromise, find some way that suits you, your horse and your situation and allow others to do the same....
 
SpringArising said:
Exactly! So surely, the least we can do is make it as natural as possible for them?



This is really not a compromise and I think it's a very poor attempt at trying to make light of a horrible situation for a horse. I wouldn't feel happy being shut in my room just because I could see lots going on outside.



Do you really, honestly, in your heart of hearts, think that your horse would rather be locked in four walls, than be out in a field, in a herd with other horses, free to wander about where and when he wants?
Click to expand...

No horse in Britain can wander where it wants a field is just another confined space to a' natural horse ' used to covering huge distances living in different places at different times of year risking starvation in winter if it makes some wrong choices .
I do see some horses that are having a fairly natural life , a livery yard near here has a group of Shetlands in winter they run on a hill with the sheep no supplementary food , not much human contact I rode past them last week they look well for Shetlands by that I mean non are obese , they come down to the farm and are restricted in summer though.
I think my horses are used to care ,they are used to work they are used to stimulating training and stimulating work most of ours will hunt and have a lot of exercise and fun running around in a big group doing that .
My horses are never bored their lives are varied busy and fun .
I think they are happier with the role the stable has in their lives .
Turned out 24/7 Fatty would dead he simply has to have very restricted access to grass in summer .
J hates rain and cold and gets eaten alive by flys and his eyes are sensitive in summer I am very very anti rugs in summer I would rather stable him a few hours in the worse part of the day . He comes in and lies straight down .
H would do ok he's tough but he loves the stable ,loves people contact he's very curious he loves to be watching human stuff going on. My horses like contact with us they are happy with people they see us as a group we are part of their little closed herd
Tatts was feral for two years he was stalled then feral I think that's part of his issue no balance in his conditioning but he likes to spend time with humans and come in in summer as well.
I will never accept that the out 24/7 system is better than the combined system for horses in work.
 
stormox said:
It is much more convenient to ride a horse from a stable than it is from a muddy field too. Also, I wonder how any people whos horses are turned out all the time actually pick feet out (VERY important), and groom properly, checking for injuries etc EVERY DAY?
Click to expand...

Erm excuse me but that is very much what you inferred that we don't look after our horses carefully. I agree some people do just turn out and forget about the day to day care of the horse but please don't tar us all with the same brush . Mine has more human interaction than most in that we spend weekends up there doing chores, planting, poo picking etc whilst he joins us usually for a nose :-) he is certainly never left on his own for hours at a time.
 
Princess16 said:
Erm excuse me but that is very much what you inferred that we don't look after our horses carefully. I agree some people do just turn out and forget about the day to day care of the horse but please don't tar us all with the same brush . Mine has more human interaction than most in that we spend weekends up there doing chores, planting, poo picking etc whilst he joins us usually for a nose :-) he is certainly never left on his own for hours at a time.
Click to expand...

So you accept that out 24/7 can be done badly so is it a huge jump to say they the combined system can be done very very well as well as not so well .
 
Princess16 theres a bit of a typo there, only just noticed- 'any' should be 'many'- sorry. I see plenty of well cared for horses out in fields, I also see a lot of scrawny wormy looking ones with bad feet and rain scald! But I also see a lot of well looked after horses in stables, and a lot of neglected ones who don't get skipped out, fed early enough etc.
 
Goldenstar said:
My horses are never bored their lives are varied busy and fun .
H would do ok he's tough but he loves the stable ,loves people contact. My horses like contact with us they are happy with people they see us as a group we are part of their little closed herd.
I will never accept that the out 24/7 system is better than the combined system for horses in work.
Click to expand...

I'm not trying to be obtuse here but I don't really understand how you could possibly know that your horses 'love' everything mentioned above.

And sure, they might lie down in their stables. But that doesn't mean they love it? I've seen all my horses lie down and relax in the field, too.

I'm not disputing that your horses like human contact. I've had one of two who are very people orientated. But that doesn't mean I think they shouldn't be with their own species. Nothing is a substitute for that, ever.
 
The thing is all the systems at grass ,combined , fully stabled ,are liable to be unpleasant to the horse if they have a bad feckless owner .
IMO Fully stabled is only acceptable for adult horses in full work where there's time and labour available for alot input daily .
 
SpringArising said:
I'm not trying to be obtuse here but I don't really understand how you could possibly know that your horses 'love' everything mentioned above.

And sure, they might lie down in their stables. But that doesn't mean they love it? I've seen all my horses lie down and relax in the field, too.

I'm not disputing that your horses like human contact. I've had one of two who are very people orientated. But that doesn't mean I think they shouldn't be with their own species. Nothing is a substitute for that, ever.
Click to expand...

Just swop love for like ,enjoy or whatever similar word you want .
And where have I said I keep my horses away from their own species .
 
Moomin1 said:
I would have thought it was common sense though that none of us can keep horses or any domestic animal in an environment which is identical to nature's intent.
Click to expand...

Common sense, absolutely.

And agree, yes, it becomes debatable at each extreme.
 
Goldenstar said:
Just swop love for like ,enjoy or whatever similar word you want .
And where have I said I keep my horses away from their own species .
Click to expand...

My horses like contact with us they are happy with people they see us as a group we are part of their little closed herd
Click to expand...

H would do ok he's tough but he loves the stable ,loves people contact he's very curious he loves to be watching human stuff
Click to expand...

Tatts was feral for two years [...] but he likes to spend time with humans and come in in summer as well.
Click to expand...

I was making a separate statement, although it could have been based on your quotes above.
 
just back from putting mione in for the night, warm, dry and rugged with plenty of hay to eat :-) sadly I have to drive past 2 poor souls who are out 24/7 one wears a headcollar permanently and the other is old and rugged. the rug goes on in October and comes off in April. it stands a lot of the time in a patch of mud with its head down. pooe poor old horse, its straps are dangling round the hind legs getting longer and longer as the winter goes on they were at its hocks and are now near its fetlovks the rug has slipped back and still now one comes. when it snows the farmer who owns the field chucks some hay in. they owners dont come near but seem to be relying on me or the other local horse owners to raise the alarm if there is anything wrong like a broken leg. its terrible. goodness knows if there are sores under the rug or rubs or if the old horse is thin :-(

sorry for the typos my hands arnt what they were
 
FairyLights said:
just back from putting mione in for the night, warm, dry and rugged with plenty of hay to eat :-) sadly I have to drive past 2 poor souls who are out 24/7
Click to expand...

That's a separate welfare issue. If they were in a stable and owned by the same person they'd probably be standing in crap with nowhere to get away from it! It's not the turnout that's causing possible misery to those horses, it's a bad owner!
 
ljohnsonsj said:
Because how can it apply to every single horse. Competition horses for example, that are stabled majority of the time and get turned out in their own paddock. Their welfare is still obviously important to owners/grooms and they are kept better than majority of 'everyday' horses although if you just grouped it under this act, it would suggest that they aren't getting what they are supposed to be. (Wording isn't brill, i know what I mean but wasn't sure how to word it!)
Click to expand...

Sorry how are competion horses looked after better than most "everyday" horses? If they are hardly ever turned out and when they are it will be on their own! I think most normal horse owners do a better job of meeting their horses needs than people that think horses are to precious to spend time in a field with another horse.
 
Queenbee said:
But they are not getting what they are supposed to be getting.

Just because they have their own personal stable and their own personal field and are wrapped up in cotton woll, does NOT mean they are getting what they need. They don't get the opportunity for social interaction. I'm sorry but a competition horse is still just a horse and as such should have those basic needs met, just as any other horse should.

I'm not quite sure if people with competition horses believe their horse will melt if it lives in any way like a horse should, but if turnout and socialisation with other horses is good enough for carl jesters competition horses then I'm pretty sure it won't harm other competition horses either.
Click to expand...

Like!
 
The Act should apply to quite a few horse management practices, and it would probably be very effective except that it's not enforced well at all. Councils can decide whether they enforce it or not, and none of them have the resources to deal with anything other than blatent animal cruelty, which is generally passed to the RSPCA or other body. It doesn't work well for many farm animals either due to various loopholes built into the interpretation of the Act (the codes of practice).
 
It might, if a horse used to jumping 1.30 fences was put in a field with usual height fencing! A lot of show jumpers wouldn't risk their horse jumping out.
And quite a lot of competition horses are stallions these days.
 
soloequestrian said:
The Act should apply to quite a few horse management practices, and it would probably be very effective except that it's not enforced well at all. Councils can decide whether they enforce it or not, and none of them have the resources to deal with anything other than blatent animal cruelty, which is generally passed to the RSPCA or other body. It doesn't work well for many farm animals either due to various loopholes built into the interpretation of the Act (the codes of practice).
Click to expand...

The 2006 AW act only covers farm animals , horses are not generally considered as farm animals in the UK , ( although they can be in limited circumstances ) so we have having a hypothetical discussion .
Judging by the conditioned accepted for raising many farm animals it's not very likely stabling horses would be prevented if it where.
 
Goldenstar said:
The 2006 AW act only covers farm animals , horses are not generally considered as farm animals in the UK , ( although they can be in limited circumstances ) so we have having a hypothetical discussion .
Judging by the conditioned accepted for raising many farm animals it's not very likely stabling horses would be prevented if it where.
Click to expand...


Really?

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/45/section/1
 
SpringArising said:
That's a separate welfare issue. If they were in a stable and owned by the same person they'd probably be standing in crap with nowhere to get away from it! It's not the turnout that's causing possible misery to those horses, it's a bad owner!
Click to expand...

Totally agree SA.

Fairy you are going off topic here. We are talking about horses living out that are clearly well looked after . Unfortunately abuse happens in or out of the stable due to the humans who have a duty of care to look after them properly. That alone is not due to them actually living out. We are talking about horses who are well looked after, fed, watered, seen to by farrier, appropriately rugged, sheltered etc as opposed to said horse cooped up in a box weaving, shaking his head and just hanging his head out of the stable door willing someone to give him some attention .

What you have witnessed unfortunately is another topic altogether.
 
Why does everything have to get so polarised on here? Some horses do well living out 24/7 and some don't.
My cobs should live out very well BUT they know they have nice dry stables so when it's blowing a gale and sleeting as it has been today, they want to come in for the night. How do I know they want to come in? Well the alacrity with which they come to the gate, the plaintive looks whilst waiting, would be enough for any idiot to understand.
Likewise in the summer they can't wait to get out of the heat and flies during the day.
Most people make the best of the facilities they have. I wouldn't like mine stabled for 24/7, but then again, if we didn't have stables, I wouldn't like them out 24/7 either. We all make decisions for our horses based on feeding needs, weather forecasts, land condition etc. etc. etc. All things that the horses themselves would never think about.
I think horses can be well managed if always stabled as long as they have a dedicated owner, the same for those out 24/7. Most of us choose a mixed method and I certainly don't see any objections from our lot, despite the fact that they have full walls between their stables.
 
cobgoblin said:
Why does everything have to get so polarised on here? Some horses do well living out 24/7 and some don't.
My cobs should live out very well BUT they know they have nice dry stables so when it's blowing a gale and sleeting as it has been today, they want to come in for the night. How do I know they want to come in? Well the alacrity with which they come to the gate, the plaintive looks whilst waiting, would be enough for any idiot to understand.
Likewise in the summer they can't wait to get out of the heat and flies during the day.
Most people make the best of the facilities they have. I wouldn't like mine stabled for 24/7, but then again, if we didn't have stables, I wouldn't like them out 24/7 either. We all make decisions for our horses based on feeding needs, weather forecasts, land condition etc. etc. etc. All things that the horses themselves would never think about.
I think horses can be well managed if always stabled as long as they have a dedicated owner, the same for those out 24/7. Most of us choose a mixed method and I certainly don't see any objections from our lot, despite the fact that they have full walls between their stables.
Click to expand...

Very well said, cobgoblin.
My horses are the same; they certainly let us know when they want to come in and when they want to go out.
They look happy enough to me and seem to enjoy their work (hacking and hunting). I can't say with absolute certainty that they are 'happy', but they definitely didn't appear any happier when they were out 24/7.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top