Stabled horses and the Animal Welfare Act...your thoughts??

[Mooseontheloose]

I think you've raised a very serious point. The climate is changing. We are getting warmer, wetter winters. We need to start thinking now how we are going to cope in the future, indeed, if we can cope.
Part of my land is under water, as a Yard owner I can't trash those fields and my elderly herd (mine and other people's) is settled and happy and putting strangers in on a short term basis is not an option.
So I have a hideous wet bog, that some can have a run round in and some concrete they can walk on.
We do need to start paying real attention, both as owners and yard owners, how we are going to cope if, as predicted, winters will get wetter and windier.
Everything gets exercised or a leg stretch of some sort every day. They look good and are touch wood healthy and happy. But I'm lucky, I have room to do it.
Do we start putting a limit on how many horses one can have per acre? Raise the cost of livery to include putting in a drained, clean paddock or pen for people to use? In the end a lot of it comes down to money. But we also need to be imaginative and pro-active.
But, are the owners who want to use their yard's paddocks regardless of the wet prepared to foot the bill to restore it in the spring? Or pay for extra hay while fields have to be rested? I'm not accusing anyone of anything but it's not always straight forward and simple.
I would like to think that this is an exceptional winter but I don't think that any longer.

 

[sandy3924]

I always read these threads with interest. I absolutely understand the importance of turnout and try to get my gelding out everyday even if its just for a couple of hours. From April to November he can stay out 24/7. However if we are debating the rights and wrongs of restricting grazing and stabling in these incredibly wet conditions, then then I would consider all the other unnatural things we do with horses . we travel them around in a metal crate where the noise must be intolerable and the prospect of being locked in a tiny space totally alien to a horse. We put a saddle on them and a bit in their mouths and then we sit on their backs. For a prey animal to even allow this is remarkable. We nail metal to their feet, we geld them, we sell them on and rip them away from long held friendships without a second thought. So actually keeping a horse stabled due to the atrocious weather conditions really isn't that bad if you take into consideration every other 'unnatural' practices we force on our horses. Of course we all try and do our very best for our Equine friends even if sometimes we have to compromise.

 

[express_75]

I always read these threads with interest. I absolutely understand the importance of turnout and try to get my gelding out everyday even if its just for a couple of hours. From April to November he can stay out 24/7. However if we are debating the rights and wrongs of restricting grazing and stabling in these incredibly wet conditions, then then I would consider all the other unnatural things we do with horses . we travel them around in a metal crate where the noise must be intolerable and the prospect of being locked in a tiny space totally alien to a horse. We put a saddle on them and a bit in their mouths and then we sit on their backs. For a prey animal to even allow this is remarkable. We nail metal to their feet, we geld them, we sell them on and rip them away from long held friendships without a second thought. So actually keeping a horse stabled due to the atrocious weather conditions really isn't that bad if you take into consideration every other 'unnatural' practices we force on our horses. Of course we all try and do our very best for our Equine friends even if sometimes we have to compromise.

Agree with this. As much as I like mine out as much as possible, the land just isn't allowing.
They are warm, dry, happy, plenty of hay, get turned out in the yard every evening, ridden / lunged/ loose schooled as much as possible during the week (I work full time) and hacked the weekends or mooch around the yard. Hopefully we can all enjoy a decent spring.

 

[Goldenstar]

I just back from a local yard were I had a lesson .
I would say they have between 25 and 30 horses and they have good livery grazing for a stabled at night yard by that I mean they offer no grass livery it's a horses in work type of yard .
There were four horses out in two two small very sloping paddocks , and the big fields which are flat are literally like lakes with little bits of grass peaking through .
What can the YM do when it's like that even if she allows turnout you simply could not use those fields it would be not safe and I can't see why you would want to .
It's a yard where you always see lots of horses in fields when you go .
I drove through floods across roads to get there .
I do think we will have to think about changing the way we manage horses I am glad mine are in work because it does make it easier in some ways .

 

[Brightbay]

Possibly because I live in a very wet area (west of Scotland), I have been thinking about this for quite a few years and have started to plan and develop.

Instead of investing in expensive barns and stables, I have put what available cash I have to making a good all weather outdoor space. There is a shelter big enough for three horses, there is a hard standing area for hay and there is an all weather track so that the horses can move around freely, socialise and "browse" on several different kinds of forage that I put out.

So I don't have to restrict their ability to move and have normal social contact, I don't have to force them to lie on their own poo, they don't have to eat dusty hay in an indoor space and they don't have to be overrugged because shelter is always available.

I could have spent the money building lovely individual stables, but I didn't, because I don't want my horses in solitary confinement because the climate has changed - their needs haven't

We still have access to 20 acres of grassland, but in winter at least they can have a dry area - that still has hills, different surfaces and nice views and choice. IT also has the added advantage of being available in summer for the ones who can't tolerate grass turnout.

I think we need to stop thinking in terms of "turnout = grass" and more in terms of "turnout = space to move and socialise" - the horses need forage, movement and company, not "grass".

 

[Goldenstar]

Disagree that horses don't need grass horses are designed to eat grass and they do best with access to grass even if it is restricted .
We need to increase stocking levels One acre one horse won't do it any more in most areas .
We need plans to provide exercise when hard standings and things like that are used turnout in a school or a hard standing is not healthy on a regular basis when exercise is not being given as well .
Horses need work to replace the large areas they are designed to move in nature .

 

[elliefiz]

Possibly because I live in a very wet area (west of Scotland), I have been thinking about this for quite a few years and have started to plan and develop.

Instead of investing in expensive barns and stables, I have put what available cash I have to making a good all weather outdoor space. There is a shelter big enough for three horses, there is a hard standing area for hay and there is an all weather track so that the horses can move around freely, socialise and "browse" on several different kinds of forage that I put out.

So I don't have to restrict their ability to move and have normal social contact, I don't have to force them to lie on their own poo, they don't have to eat dusty hay in an indoor space and they don't have to be overrugged because shelter is always available.

I could have spent the money building lovely individual stables, but I didn't, because I don't want my horses in solitary confinement because the climate has changed - their needs haven't

We still have access to 20 acres of grassland, but in winter at least they can have a dry area - that still has hills, different surfaces and nice views and choice. IT also has the added advantage of being available in summer for the ones who can't tolerate grass turnout.

I think we need to stop thinking in terms of "turnout = grass" and more in terms of "turnout = space to move and socialise" - the horses need forage, movement and company, not "grass".

This times 100!! Sounds like a great set up. As you say, the climate has changed, the horses needs haven't. Yes some yards have probably been shocked this year by how wet their fields are and been forced to close them for the first time ever. However local to me are loads of yards who have shut fields all winter for years now and have made no effort in the interim to address the issue. If you are a livery there, the fields are closed for 3 months and that's just tough luck. Oh and no turn out in the school either as the surface will get damaged. Instead of voting with one's feet and giving custom to yards where the horses well being is a higher priority, most people suck it up in silence and spend 3 months moaning about the high cost of bedding and haying a horse 24/7. Yards will only change if they have to to keep their customers.

 

[Brightbay]

This times 100!! Sounds like a great set up. As you say, the climate has changed, the horses needs haven't. Yes some yards have probably been shocked this year by how wet their fields are and been forced to close them for the first time ever. However local to me are loads of yards who have shut fields all winter for years now and have made no effort in the interim to address the issue. If you are a livery there, the fields are closed for 3 months and that's just tough luck. Oh and no turn out in the school either as the surface will get damaged. Instead of voting with one's feet and giving custom to yards where the horses well being is a higher priority, most people suck it up in silence and spend 3 months moaning about the high cost of bedding and haying a horse 24/7. Yards will only change if they have to to keep their customers.

What about all the countries in the world where grass pasture isn't available?
Horses need constant access to forage. Most forage is preserved grass - the freshness of the grass isn't really an issue. Grass is a complete red herring, and seems to be the main reason that people end up getting stuck in this "Horse needs grass, grass is now mud, horse must now live in stable 24/7 until grass returns, grass has returned but when I turn horse out he goes bonkers and may injure himself, so he must stay in" dilemma.

Horses need access to appropriate forage, companionship and space to move. I would love to say our group spends the winter galloping across the 20 acres of hillside with the wind in their manes, but they mostly spend it ambling between the stream and the hay without touching the boring winter grass. On the basis of this, I believe spending it ambling along an all weather track munching on big bales of dried out grass with their pals is a reasonable substitute.

Since it also means their feet get nicely conditioned to a variety of surfaces so they don't need hoof protection, we're all winners in this game

 

[Goldenstar]

No grass is not a red herring .
The horse gut works best when eating grass not dried grass .
I have worked in countries where there's not grass and they have a much higher colic rate than you see here .

 

[luckyoldme]

Possibly because I live in a very wet area (west of Scotland), I have been thinking about this for quite a few years and have started to plan and develop.

Instead of investing in expensive barns and stables, I have put what available cash I have to making a good all weather outdoor space. There is a shelter big enough for three horses, there is a hard standing area for hay and there is an all weather track so that the horses can move around freely, socialise and "browse" on several different kinds of forage that I put out.

So I don't have to restrict their ability to move and have normal social contact, I don't have to force them to lie on their own poo, they don't have to eat dusty hay in an indoor space and they don't have to be overrugged because shelter is always available.

I could have spent the money building lovely individual stables, but I didn't, because I don't want my horses in solitary confinement because the climate has changed - their needs haven't

We still have access to 20 acres of grassland, but in winter at least they can have a dry area - that still has hills, different surfaces and nice views and choice. IT also has the added advantage of being available in summer for the ones who can't tolerate grass turnout.

I think we need to stop thinking in terms of "turnout = grass" and more in terms of "turnout = space to move and socialise" - the horses need forage, movement and company, not "grass".

i think thats briliant, putting the horses needs first!

 

[Mooseontheloose]

Brightbay, sounds like you have a lovely set up, but I think the problem is more what to do in these very high density horse areas where there simply aren't twenty acres and barns, or if there are they cost several million.
To put the cat among the pigeons and I'm anticipating some of the replies, my non horsey husband has just had a look at this thread and was heard to mutter, quite loudly actually - 'First world problem, I know people who'd happily live in your field shelter'. He may have a point!

 

[Goldenstar]

Brightbay, sounds like you have a lovely set up, but I think the problem is more what to do in these very high density horse areas where there simply aren't twenty acres and barns, or if there are they cost several million.
To put the cat among the pigeons and I'm anticipating some of the replies, my non horsey husband has just had a look at this thread and was heard to mutter, quite loudly actually - 'First world problem, I know people who'd happily live in your field shelter'. He may have a point!

It is a first world problem but it's a problem none the less horses are going to get more expensive to look after and we will have space for fewer of them if wetter winters become the norm and land becomes built on to build extra houses that we clearly need ,something will have to give .
I suspect it will have to be the number of horses in the country .

 

[Cortez]

It is a first world problem but it's a problem none the less horses are going to get more expensive to look after and we will have space for fewer of them if wetter winters become the norm and land becomes built on to build extra houses that we clearly need ,something will have to give .
I suspect it will have to be the number of horses in the country .

Is this not already happening? All those unwanted horses filling up the rescue centres....

 

[ycbm]

Dupe

 

[ycbm]

No grass is not a red herring .
The horse gut works best when eating grass not dried grass .
I have worked in countries where there's not grass and they have a much higher colic rate than you see here .

What else were they fed, though? Countries with no grass also tend to have no hay. I've been on a yard abroad with no hay and they got a lot of colic. And they may get more colic but I'll bet they don't get much laminitis/IR/ems/grass sickness.

Disagree that horses don't need grass horses are designed to eat grass and they do best with access to grass even if it is restricted .
We need to increase stocking levels One acre one horse won't do it any more in most areas .
We need plans to provide exercise when hard standings and things like that are used turnout in a school or a hard standing is not healthy on a regular basis when exercise is not being given as well .
Horses need work to replace the large areas they are designed to move in nature .

I don't think horses did evolve to eat grass. I think they evolved to eat large quantities of scrub and walk a long way to find it. Wild horses with access to grass stop moving, eat, and get all the foot problems that domestic horses get. I agree with you completely on the exercise.

 

[Copperpot]

All I know is that when my horse was on a "posh" yard where he was, what many consider pampered, he was as miserable as sin. A bit of rain and he had to stay in all day. I dread to think how long he would have been kept in this winter. Now he's living the life of an actual horse and free to wander 24/7 and play and groom with my other 2, he's happy. Muddy, hairy and not at all pampered, but happy.

 

[Goldenstar]

Is this not already happening? All those unwanted horses filling up the rescue centres....

Yes sort of but it seems to me that most ( not all )of the horses in rescue centres are there because of breeding of poor quality stock .
As land pressure increases livery supply will drop costs will then rise and then those horses will be homeless horses that where in good hands .
I am pessimistic about the future .
I think people getting excited about other people keeping their horses stabled will be
the least of our worries .
ATM livery costs does often not reflect the value of the land it uses in the same way a hotel room does ,when it starts to it's not going to be nice .

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I agree GS, its not going to be pretty and we'll return to horses being only for the (much) better off. Haven't decided yet if thats such an awful thing (might mean less dross bred in the first place, riding schools etc might make something of a comeback, leases will become more common and novices less likely to buy right from the start. The dedicated will still find a way though!) but also don't think it will happen in our life time.

 

[Pedantic]

But they are not getting what they are supposed to be getting.

Just because they have their own personal stable and their own personal field and are wrapped up in cotton woll, does NOT mean they are getting what they need. They don't get the opportunity for social interaction. I'm sorry but a competition horse is still just a horse and as such should have those basic needs met, just as any other horse should.

I'm not quite sure if people with competition horses believe their horse will melt if it lives in any way like a horse should, but if turnout and socialisation with other horses is good enough for carl jesters competition horses then I'm pretty sure it won't harm other competition horses either.

I agree with this.

 

[TheMule]

I got fed up of having to keep my horses in a way that didn't sit comfortably with me, decided to think outside the box and they now live out in a little herd on a local farm. Everyone around here says it's hard to find 24/7 turnout. Well, it's not, if you try!
They are competition horses, to a decent amateur level (BE Intermediate/SJ Fox). They are happy, healthy horses who go out and do a job.

 

[Mooseontheloose]

Well, this morning my outdoor ones are huddled in the field shelter and I 'm not sure what good would be achieved by turning out my indoor ones, except perhaps to give them swimming lessons.
They'll all get a leg stretch but honestly, they're not even putting their heads out!

 

[julie111]

My cob lives out 24/7, I moved him from a small DIY yard about 5 weeks ago as all the horses were having to stay in. The rain is a pain in the bum but I would rather him out than in, he is in a herd of 10 in big fields with very high hedges.

 

[MagicMelon]

It doesn't, and that's why a heck of a lot of horses who are kept in for long periods of time throughout the day develop stable vices and OCD behaviours.

This. Even if horses are stabled beside other ones, this is not allowing them to display normal behaviours. I find it amazing the horse world gets away with keeping horses cooped up for such long periods of time, if people did the same to dogs or cats in this country they would get done for cruelty.

 

[minesadouble]

Things need to be looked at from the point of view of the individual horse. We have some living out and some in. One of our TBs goes nuts if left in all day the other cannot bear bad weather and literally hides his head in the corner of the stable when you go in with a headcollar. The second horse would happily spend all Winter in his stable if he were allowed too. In weather like this he has to be dragged to the field!

 

[Mooseontheloose]

Beware Minesadouble, some of the more militant 24/7ers will accuse you of brainwashing him into thinking he doesn't like going out!
There's a happy medium and the art of the possible. My low lying fields are currently flooding. The river is over it's banks. It's beauitful in the summer and the horses are out there full time. It's simply not possible now. I can only do what is practical and sensible.
I don't mind that the ground gets churned up, it will recover. I do mind that they'll get mud fever, soaking, miserable, possible rain scald, for what? They're domestic animals.
I have no stereotypical behaviour, very open stables, happy horses from two to thirty three. Why should I feel guilty that some days they only get a leg stretch!

 

[minesadouble]

Hahaha, well I can't be accused of mollycoddling or brainwashing as I have an 18 year old TB mare living out 24/7 - Unrugged too!!! She is as happy in the field as the bad weather hater is in his stable

 

[luckyoldme]

I got fed up of having to keep my horses in a way that didn't sit comfortably with me, decided to think outside the box and they now live out in a little herd on a local farm. Everyone around here says it's hard to find 24/7 turnout. Well, it's not, if you try!
They are competition horses, to a decent amateur level (BE Intermediate/SJ Fox). They are happy, healthy horses who go out and do a job.

I agree with this.
my horse was the worst when i got him, i posted on here about the problems i had and got slated for keeping him on his own. The problem was he was poorly socialised and every time he got near another horse he just have to have a taste,
Seven years on he is on 24/7 turnout in a steady group and it could nt be better. Theres no school, no toilet or anything that a lot of people look for , but for me its worth it just to have the peace of mind that in the larger proportion of time when im not there he is happy and content..the cribbing and fence walking are history.
I will eventually have another horse and if it turns out to be a wuss and need a stable its there, but that would be a last resort for me.

 

[Tnavas]

It doesn't, and that's why a heck of a lot of horses who are kept in for long periods of time throughout the day develop stable vices and OCD behaviours.

Not the case at all - very few develop any bad vices when stabled for long periods of time.

I've worked with stabled horses for many decades - in yards where 100 or more horses are stabled 24/7, 365 days of the year.

I've also seen countless horses turned out on strip grazing areas that are not much bigger than half a dozen stables joined together or no bigger than a dressage arena - they cannot exercise themselves - but says the owner - "they live out". I currently pass three horses every day that are in a miniscule area - the paddock is filthy and though the horses get a new strip of grass everyday the fence is moved behind them as well. Just as cruel as being stabled for long periods!

 

[HashRouge]

I wonder if one of the (possible) solutions might be an increased use of track systems. A local yard had a track system built during the summer which allows them to avoid the problem of wet, muddy fields (they are on heavy clay). They haven't even had to have it surfaced, they just scraped it back to the bedrock (which admittedly wouldn't work everywhere) and as far as I know it is holding up well. This is a yard that, previously, used to close its fields for months at a time because the land just couldn't cope with horses on it over winter. Now they can have 24/7 turnout on the track year round. I suppose the initial problem is the cost of setting up the track, but I do think that when it's done, it would solve lots of problems for many yards.

 

[EQUIDAE]

Dogs sleep in dens so crate training a dog is not seen as cruel, however we would call it cruel for someone to leave a dog in a crate for 23 hours a day (someone posted about their neighbour kennelling their dogs all day being wrong too). Horses are herd, and nomadic animals but some see no issue with them being stabled for 23 hours a day - something that goes completely against their nature...