Stag huntign in Ireland - am I going mad?

[cptrayes]

I posted on the Hunting forum:

Did anyone follow the article pointed to and read how they hunted stag in Ireland?

"The Ward Union hunts a "carted stag", meaning they release and recapture unharmed deer bred in captivity by themselves in the course of the day's hunting. "

So they breed deer, put them in a lorry and drive them to where they want to "hunt" them, release them, chase them all day, catch them, put them back in a lorry and drive them home again?

Un-be-lievable!


The responses which I have had so far are:

What's unbelievable about it? There's isn't the wild deer population here like there is in the UK.

and:

And the problem is??


Is it me? Is it really OK to do that with a group of deer? I guess that forum is very pro hunting live quarry, so I though I would ask a wider selection of people here as well. What do you reckon??

 

[gemin1eye]

Considering how easily stressed deer are, I don't see how people DON'T have a problem with it.

 

[siennamum]

You aren't the only one, people have blinkers on regarding stag hunting. It seems entirely pointless and brutal at the best of times. This malarkey where there isn't even the pretence of controlling a deer population sounds really nasty.

 

[penhwnllys_stardust]

So do they actually kill the stag? surely they can come up with a better alternative to hunting than this ****?

How about they chase a man in a costume ??... lol

 

[touchstone]

I think it's pretty horrific, the fear and stress that the chase must cause doesn't bear thinking about.

 

[cptrayes]

Glad it's not just me!

 

[sam1am]

Well its banned now so need to go on about it really.
The deer are bred by the hunt to keep numbers of pure red deer up- None wild in Ireland anymore.
As far as I know each deer as only used as quarry once in their lifetime.
Then go back to the herd,
So stress etc is kept to a minimum and the animals recover very quickly.
I personally dont see the problem but I can see others might.
BUT as I said its banned now so why start another post about it.

 

[cptrayes]

Because in a free society I'm entitled to talk about whatever I want as long as it's legal to do so? If you didn't want to be involved, the title was clear and you should maybe have kept away from the thread?

It was banning it that brought it to my attention. I'm gobsmacked that it ever happened in the 21st century and I'm pleased to find out that I'm not alone in that. You mention " another thread" but I am unaware of any other except my own.

I could electrocute my cat for fun and his stress would be only milliseconds of shock and he would recover very quickly but that doesn't make it right. And before you say that's a silly example, electrified pet training collars are illegal, and there are plenty of people prosecuted every year in this country because they get pleasure from torturing animals, and there's a very, very fine line between them and the people hunting those deer.

 

[EAST KENT]

Don`t get this I`m afraid..this is a Horse and HOUND forum..now what do you suppose hounds were /are bred to do? The carted stags in Eire WERE only hunted ONCE in their lives,not harmed in any way..after that they retire to a life of Riley forever. No doubt racers get pretty "stressed",esp chasers..ban that too then?Oh and don`t they say a rider simulates a big cat on it`s prey??Umm ..better not do that either,had we? THAT is def pretty stressy .

 

[EAST KENT]

Oh ,and by the way,at time of writing E collars are ONLY illegal in Wales at the moment..not the rest of UK,and as far as I know there have never been any prosecutions yet.

 

[cptrayes]

I "suppose" that bull terriers were bred to fight each other to the death so that people could bet on them but we don't do it know. For heaven's sake what kind of argument is that? There are plenty of "working breeds" living as pets, no-one thinks just because a poodle was once a French hunting dog that they "need" in some way to be out hunting live pray. That really is one of the weakest excuses for hunting live quarry I have ever read!

Explain please why they need to chase a deer if they don't even kill it?

 

[siennamum]

Don`t get this I`m afraid..this is a Horse and HOUND forum..now what do you suppose hounds were /are bred to do? The carted stags in Eire WERE only hunted ONCE in their lives,not harmed in any way..after that they retire to a life of Riley forever. No doubt racers get pretty "stressed",esp chasers..ban that too then?Oh and don`t they say a rider simulates a big cat on it`s prey??Umm ..better not do that either,had we? THAT is def pretty stressy .

Is there a logical argument in there anywhere?

 

[EAST KENT]

Absolute logic actually..you think it is wrong to stress an animal in any way..so I point out how most of you stress animals every day. You may think pet life will suit a hound..well it does not,it will have a deep need to hunt and use it`s scenting abilities.Learnt that one after "walking" 12 couple of hound puppies over many many years. Once the urge to hunt took over it was time to go back to the hunt kennels to fulfill what they are bred to do.

 

[cptrayes]

It took five generations to breed a wild asian leopard into a Bengal cat that absolutely adores being with people. How long do you think it would take to breed a hound that would actually like to sit in front of a winter fire after a jolly walk with it's owner? We already have wolves in the park on a lead. Your argument just does not stack up as a reason to chase a deer for fun.

Can you answer my question? If it isn't even going to be killed and eaten, why do you need to chase a deer? When I start hunting in a month my prize-winning foxhound pack will be chasing a fox called Des every Saturday. They seem to enjoy it , my horse adores it and I love it.

I am always amused by when someone says this is Horse and HOUND forum, as if somehow it was a necessity to chase live quarry to enjoy following hounds, or even to read the magasine at all!

 

[Alec Swan]

Right, and before this gets out of hand.

cptrayes, if you would like a serious debate about the rights and wrongs of hunting, and particularly the stress factor then I would be more than happy to contribute.

If we are to start this off, I would point out to you a simple fact. Were a man to be hunted by hounds, with the intention that he would be killed, and broken up by hounds, and then were he to escape capture, then the trauma would probably last him for the rest of his life.

Are you prepared to accept that animals do not, as far as we can be certain, have a concept of death? I have watched a specific hare, coursed by a greyhound, grazing peacefully within 20 minutes of the chase. There is no question that I am correct.

Oh, and by the way sam1am, there are most certainly red deer in Ireland, read the book by Sean Ryan, "The wild red deer of Kilarney". If you are to argue about hunting, and specifically deer, then be certain of your facts. There is little point in debate, if one side is to contribute inaccuracies. That may be blunt, but it's the way it is. Sorry.

cpt, fire away!

Alec.

 

[cptrayes]

Alec I just find it bizarre that anyone would breed a nervous wild creature like a dear (and I have two domesticated herds near me and neither will take food directly from their owners), herd a group of them into a lorry, drive them to a piece of countryside, let them out, chase one or more of them on horseback, load them back in a lorry and drive them home.

It just seems to me to be a hugely peculiar thing to do, and completely unjustifiable to stress an easily stressed species in this way simply to have the fun of chasing it. I'd have more respect for these "hunters" if they killed and ate one.

It isn't necessary to chase a deer to follow hounds across country and have a rattling good days riding. Is ANYONE going to answer the question why you think it is?

 

[Maesfen]

CPT, you are exaggerating beyond belief. Fair enough if you knew and quoted the correct facts but you don't and you aren't. When you have learnt the correct facts, then I'll have a debate with you.

 

[Alec Swan]

cpt,

sadly, your first paragraph summed up, clearly, your complete lack of understanding. Please don't think me being rude, that is not my intention.

It could be argued, for instance, that what is the point in growing your own vegetables, when you can go to the supermarket and buy them? Just as there is a point to growing your own food, so there is a point to hunting. The well being of any population of localised wild life, which is hunted, actually benefits from being pursued. We have a long way to go, I suspect, before you see the sense of what I'm telling you!!

Just to correct you. A "group" of deer are not herded into a lorry. It is only ever an individual stag. This is the "Carted Stag". With wild deer, those which are killed, are VERY rarely killed by hounds. If they are, then it is regarded as an accident, and would be regretted by those who hunt. The said carted stag, lives a life of luxury, and I suspect that the exercise is actually good for him. They do seem to live to a ripe old age!

Again, to correct you. Deer are not domesticated, and those Park deer which, presumably you have near to you will, though contained, never approach humans. They would be considered to be dangerous if they did.

If you are unable to accept the concept that those who hunt any specific quarry, actually have a greater understanding, knowledge of and respect for the animal itself, then we aren't going to make any progress.

Alec.

 

[spacefaer]

cptrayes FYI

http://www.wardunionhunt.ie/Kennels.html

According to the Ward Union, “a mature, healthy deer from the deer park is segregated from the herd and transported to a selected location in a purpose-built transporter” known as a cart. (For this reason, stag hunting is also known as “carted deer hunting”.) The stag is then released and, after a while, the “huntsman introduces a restricted number of hounds and the deer is pursued by its scent” followed by members of the hunt on horseback. The Ward Union says that the purpose of the hunt is “to pit the skills of the huntsman, his hounds and that of the mounted followers against the prowess of one of Ireland’s most prolific quarry over rural terrain”.

IS THE STAG KILLED?
No. “At the end of the chase,” according to the Ward Union, “the deer either evades capture or is brought to bay – rather like sheep by a sheepdog – and captured manually by designated followers. Upon capture the deer is repatriated to the deer reservation where, after a period of observation, he rejoins the herd.”

Each stag in the WU herd is hunted just once a year under “constant supervision of Department of the Environment wild life officers and veterinarians”. The stag is “health-checked before and after a hunt” and, despite “exhaustive and extensive monitoring”, it claims that “no excess stress levels have been recorded as it is perfectly natural for a flight animal, like a stag, to be hunted”.

 

[cptrayes]

You guys and me live on different planets, as I said on the hunting forum. Just stay over there will you, and let me talk to people who live on the same planet as I do. There is quite simply no way that we are ever going to agree on this subject. Thankfully what you think is acceptable is now unlawful.

Maesfen would you like to tell me just how you think I have exaggerated exactly?

Alec you can correct me all you like, but I call a herd of deer kept in a pen of around two acres and fed by their owner and entirely dependent upon their owner for their continued existence "domesticated" even if you do not. One lot are farmed for meat. One lot are kept as pets. Neither appear to trust humans, though the owner of the pet lot sits with them for hours on end, day after day, and it defies belief to believe that if one was taken out of the herd, transported, hunted for hours, captured by people (how exactly - you don't just put a headcollar on it and lead it into a trailer, do you?) and put back in the herd that it did not undergo significant stress, completely unneccessarily.

Alec says that a deer which approached a human would be considered dangerous, while spacefaer tells us that the deer hunted is captured by people at the end of the hunt. The two cannot be true without significant unnecessary stress to the animal, can they?


Answer my question will you someone, if you insist on continuing this discussion:

WHY DO YOU NEED TO CHASE A DEER TO FOLLOW HOUNDS ACROSS COUNTRY ON HORSEBACK?

I have asked this three times now and no answer. I understand completely that you like to watch the hounds doing a natural job. But people used to like watching cockerels kill each other, and fighting dogs do the same and most of us evolved to a point where we now consider that it is not acceptable to get our own enjoyment from unnecessarily causing another animal to fear for its life. And before you say the deer does not fear for its life, it wouldn't run in the first place if it did not.

 

[LizzyandToddy]

Can't they just fox-hunt instead?
I'm not sure where I stand on this, sort of on the fence. I can see the arguements for and against.
The deer doesn't die, and is exploited in a way that is natural to him - fleeing from an enemy.
However I'm not sure I know enough about it to really have an opinion.
My first impression, is whats wrong with it?
Put i'm sure if I stayed around long enough i'd get reems and reems about why that makes me some sort of sadist.
Either way its banned now...

 

[rebchico]

it is banned and your question has been answered.

what on earth is the point of this thread?

 

[zefragile]

According to the Ward Union, “a mature, healthy deer from the deer park is segregated from the herd and transported to a selected location in a purpose-built transporter” known as a cart. (For this reason, stag hunting is also known as “carted deer hunting”.) The stag is then released and, after a while, the “huntsman introduces a restricted number of hounds and the deer is pursued by its scent” followed by members of the hunt on horseback. The Ward Union says that the purpose of the hunt is “to pit the skills of the huntsman, his hounds and that of the mounted followers against the prowess of one of Ireland’s most prolific quarry over rural terrain”.

Doesn't make it sound any better to me.

 

[Bedlam]

I'm a bit confused about this.

Hunting is basically very good fun - but there's always been a reason behind it. A good, solid countryman's reason.

I have to say that I've never been stag hunting. I tend to veer towards the thinking that deer can be culled by rifle a little more easily than foxes can. I don't know much about it though, and would not stand against deer hunting without trying to learn a little more about it.

What has been described in this thread, however, is a bit alarming to the uninformed - even if it is now apparently illegal?

Are people actually trying to defend the fact that a captive bred stag is let loose to be chased by hounds and then re-captured? What's the point in that? What are you trying to achieve?

It sounds a bit like the shoots that make me livid round here - let's breed thousands of pheasant and partridge in small pens, release them the day before the disgustingly profitable corporate shoot and make heaps of money. If they won't fly (because it's unsporting to shoot them if they don't fly) we'll throw them up into the air for you - then you can wing them if you're lucky and we'll wring their necks for you when the dog brings them to us still flapping.

I am PRO hunting and PRO shooting - just anti gratuitous cruelty.

 

[spacefaer]

You guys and me live on different planets, as I said on the hunting forum. Just stay over there will you, and let me talk to people who live on the same planet as I do. There is quite simply no way that we are ever going to agree on this subject. .

cptrayes, you and I have agreed to disagree over on the Hunting forum and I am not falling out with you here - I am entitled to be in NL as much as you are - and if you look at my posts, you will see that I do come here for reasons other than hunting posts. I find it amusing that you apparently came into NL so that you could get some predictably "outraged" replies to your provocative initial post - no one has actually offered you "discussion" on it, apart from the 3 posters you find distasteful (ie those who disagree with you)

I merely posted the Ward Union website link to give you accurate information about what went on within the hunt, so you could at least have your "discussion" with accuracy, whether you find it acceptable or otherwise.

As has been said before, it is now banned, so your outrage is a little retrospective, to say the least.

 

[cptrayes]

I did not ask for a discussion. I made it perfectly clear if you read my first post that I was looking to see if other people felt the same as I did, and reassurance that I was not going off my rocker.

I'm glad that I am not going off my rocker and that other people think this is as indefensible as I do.

 

[glenruby]

I have to admit while I am a big supporter of hunting, this method of hunting has made me very uneasy for quite a while. I have seen how stressed these deer are at the end of hunting and I fail to see who they could recover "quickly". To the best of my knowledge they ARENT only hunted once in their life but I stand to be corrected by someone involved with the Ward (hearsay wont do). I have no issues with "real" hunting of foxes etc, and IF these stag REALLY are only hunted once in their life then it isnt quite as bad as I previously thought.

PS. I wonder howcome if it is true that they really are only hunted once that this has never been mentioned in the media (by the Ward or by hunting opposition) despite the fact that stag hunting has been in and out of the news for at least the past 5yrs?

 

[Maesfen]

cptrayes, you and I have agreed to disagree over on the Hunting forum and I am not falling out with you here - I am entitled to be in NL as much as you are - and if you look at my posts, you will see that I do come here for reasons other than hunting posts. I find it amusing that you apparently came into NL so that you could get some predictably "outraged" replies to your provocative initial post - no one has actually offered you "discussion" on it, apart from the 3 posters you find distasteful (ie those who disagree with you)

As has been said before, it is now banned, so your outrage is a little retrospective, to say the least.

Couldn't agree more and I have pleasure in posting the original Paul Carberry letter, not that it will make the slightest difference to CPT as they are determined to stir the mire, but many in NL might not have seen this before and it gives you some idea of the passion behind the scenes. Although CPT won't like it, Paul makes some very valid points.

******

23.11.07 - Letter sent to MP from Paul Carberry, Natuonal Hunt jockey Ward Union Hunt member:

Dear Minister,

I am writing to you because all National Hunt jockeys are very concerned
about your attempt to ban my hunt, the Ward Union.

Every Friday in winter, I miss racing to hunt with the Ward Union. Why?
I need to keep my eye in.

Thanks to the wonderful generosity of north Dublin and Meath farmers, I
get up on a race horse each Friday, November to February, and we're off,
hounds out front. Way up ahead there's a wild Irish red deer stag, and he's
out there jumping and towing us across huge hedges, cavernous drains, deep
ditches and through the beautiful lush green Irish countryside.

So, when it comes to the Grand National and I am coming to Becher's
Brook, I see the tension in the English jockey's shoulders. I sense his
fear. He doesn't realise it, but he is holding his horse just a gnat's tight
and we're seven strides out, galloping, 40 miles an hour, to a deadly drop.
Suddenly you are there. The moment of truth, and I know in my head, I know I
jumped bigger following the stag the previous month.

I kick on, I hear the brush of the top of the fence and we're heading
down and down, and the horse lands, I adjust my balance and I feel his lungs
fill, his head comes up and we are galloping on. Out of the corner of my
goggles I see a flailing body, the English jockey is gone and I look around
and there are just a few of us in contention now, Barry (Geraghty), Ruby
(Walsh), and this year, coming on the behind me, is Puppy (Robert Power),
all regulars hunting with the Ward Union.

Minister, I appreciate that you are on record as saying you dislike
horse racing, but have you ever wondered why Ireland is to horse racing as
Brazil is to soccer, or as New Zealand is to rugby? It is because we have
hunting, because we have the likes of the Ward Union. How come all the big
jump races are being won consistently by Irish jockeys? It all starts with
brave kids hunting bold ponies. Hunting is what gives us our bottle.

And now, Minister, acknowledging you have no reason based on animal
welfare, you believe you have grounds not to renew our licence, because a
wild Irish stag jumped into a school yard in Co Meath last January. I say,
lucky children. From the safety of their classroom they saw the real thing,
a real wild Irish stag.

But the city folk now living in Meath say their children "might" have
been traumatised by the experience. Apparently, city life was much less
traumatising for their kids, despite the joyriding on the estates and
nightly terrorising of elderly neighbours, just for "sport", or the drug
dealer on the corner. Better to stay indoors and watch driller-killer
videos.

The incident was seized upon by those who want to stop hunting, horse
racing, live exports, beef farming, meat-eating, etc.

They claim the stag is stressed and exhausted at the end of the run, but
omit to say that, unharmed, it is returned to the reservation and is only
ever hunted once a year. That one day's hunting for the stag is what keeps
these almost extinct, original, indigenous Irish red deer wild.

Under your Department's stewardship of the deer in Phoenix Park, they
are regularly hit by cars, and if it's at the weekend and they are in awful
pain, I understand they are not put down until Monday, when the civil
servants are back at work.

Minister, when the Dail resumes on September 26, please read into the
record of the Dail the numbers of deer your Department has culled around the
country since 1996. The Ward Union doesn't kill any stags, but you are
concerned that, on the one day a year a deer is hunted, it may be exhausted.
For an animal, exhaustion and stress are different from pain and suffering.

With respect, Minister, I know animals, you don't. I ride horses, you
ride a bike. Exhaustion is exhilarating, pain is debilitating -- don't mix
them up. I can feel a horse going lame from the moment of its first twinge,
but I also sense the sheer energy of a horse defying exhaustion, pricking
its ears and racing on.

Are the thousands of pigeons taken from Dublin every weekend to France
and who fly, non-stop, 10 hours back to their lofts, not completely
exhausted, and maybe a bit stressed, looking for home? Minister Gormley, are
you going to ban pigeon racing? This is getting ridiculous.

Puppy went on to win this year's National on Silver Birch. And I
remembered a day, two months earlier, when Gordon (Gordon Elliot, trainer of
Silver Birch) was jumping beside me with the Ward Union on this very brave
but small horse. In the pub afterwards, I asked where he got the horse. He
told me: "We bought him in Doncaster, I am aiming him for the National." I
turned, and probably laughed into my vodka and Red Bull.

Silver Birch was a failed English steeplechaser. He, too, had got fed
up, as I would if I didn't have my Fridays, and gone sour, running around in
circles at race tracks.

But Gordon took him back to Ireland, and by hunting him in open country
with the Ward Union, the little horse recovered his zest for life. He
remembered he was born to run, jump and chase, and now he was ready for the
biggest chase in the world, the Grand National.

Minister, I know you don't look at horse racing but I am going to
forward a video of this year's National and I want you to see that horse
walking into the winner's enclosure at Aintree on his toes, ears pricked,
his proud eye, and Gordon and Puppy being interviewed by the BBC and
thanking the Ward Union, saying, in their great moment of victory, it was
having a unique, fast hunt like the Ward Union that rehabilitated this
great, now champion horse. Is that not the type of animal welfare we should
be rewarding?

I don't understand city life, and they probably don't understand us in
the country. But I do know why, when people visit a farmer's cottage near
Garristown, he'll boast about his new hip, force his visitor to join him on
a walk down to a big hedge, three fields in from the road. It is now a foot
taller and a yard wider in summer, but he's not going to kill a good story.
"You see that hedge, that's where Silver Birch, the Grand National Winner,
jumped last January." Yes, that's why the vast majority of farmers open
their farms so generously to hunts. They love being involved.

Every farmer in Skryne, Co Meath, welcomes the hunt the week before
Christmas, because they know, without fail, that before the legendary
Micheal J Kinane flies to Dubai in January for the new season, he will be
out hunting, just to keep his eye in. He'll be there jumping the ditches
alongside the kids from the local pony club. For a farmer, for that day, his
place becomes a Croke Park.

In the countryside, stag, fox, hare and hound, jockey, farmer,
point-to-point, pony club, shooter, angler, hunter, fish, fur, flesh and
feather are all magically, magnificently intertwined and interdependent. A
move against the Ward Union by the Green Party will be seen clearly as a
move against the entire countryside.

Let's look at the facts. A stag jumped into an empty school yard. We
deserve a serious reprimand. We should, through the licence process, be made
to demonstrate all the precautions we have taken to reduce the risk of such
occurrences.

But, to be banned after 150 years, to put at risk the future
conservation of a unique herd of wild Irish red deer, to bring about the end
of a pack of unique stag hounds? Now that, is overkill. We should be given
grants by your Department's heritage fund for maintaining our deer, not be
subjected to a nonsensical ban.

Minister, on page 22 of your election manifesto, it stated your party's
intention to end all hunting and curtail horse racing by reducing its
funding. So we know where you are coming from, although it is a mystery to
me why your party is so against horse racing and the tens of thousands
employed in the industry.

But Minister, please allow your officials to make the decision based
solely on the veterinary and scientific evidence, and, if we avoid political
interference and agendas in this process, I am confident Silver Birch will
have other days out with the Ward Union.

Paul Carberry

National Hunt jockey,

Ward Union hunt member

 

[touchstone]

Hmmm, that letter might show the passion, however I don't feel it shows any justification for stag hunting whatsoever, and apparently according to that letter a stag had been hunted into a playground? It also states that a stag is only hunted once a year, so could presumably be hunted on more than one occasion.

For me I can't see anything special about stag hunting that couldn't be achieved with draghunting, and that letter has only served to prove that.

 

[zefragile]

Hmmm, that letter might show the passion, however I don't feel it shows any justification for stag hunting whatsoever, and apparently according to that letter a stag had been hunted into a playground? It also states that a stag is only hunted once a year, so could presumably be hunted on more than one occasion.

For me I can't see anything special about stag hunting that couldn't be achieved with draghunting, and that letter has only served to prove that.

Same. That letter shows more concern for people and racing than the stag.