Stallion, gelding, mare..is it true..?

[SamBean]

I've only had experience of 1 stallion when I was at high school and has was just lovely, we had a couple of moments but I've had a lot more with other horses. He was also an Arab and his owner also had an Arab and Arab cross mare, they all had lovely temperaments and attitudes.

 

[Serianas]

If the saying in true would anyone like to try my 14hh NF almost-a-stallion? XD He was cut twice and he still has stallion levels of testosterone 6 years later... I have to treat him as though he were entire or he can be a stroppy arse who is too clever for his own good lol

I have had a go on a Welsh D stallion at a busy venue who was an absolute saint and the owner said it was because I knew how to act decisively due to riding my boy

 

[PurBee]

"Do you think that the gender of the trainer has an impact generally or is it the personality of the trainer?
There seem to be more male trainers online than females, does this indicate that men, with their natural, masculine dominance presence personality have an easier time training horses?
(i dont mean that to sound sexist if it does to anyone reading, im genuinely curious, and accept there are differences hormonally between the genders and appreciate animals sense our hormonal ‘stamp’ too, so perhaps that is a factor and gives men a ‘dominance’ advantage due to their testosterone, if true it would mean the great female trainers have a unique gift training horses!)"

No. I think the *slightly* higher ratio of male riders at the upper levels has a lot to do with gender roles and norms in society, and in equestrian sport in particular. For example, the three Olympic sports evolved out of the cavalry, and most of the trainers and riders were men because women were obviously not in the cavalry, and the main schools of classical equitation (i.e. Spanish Riding School, Cadre Noir) did not admit women until the late 20th century. Although it's arguably improving, there remains more pressure on women than men to balance family with ambition -- and men don't get pregnant -- which makes having a professional riding/training career a wee bit tougher for women.

Testosterone doesn't give a 'dominance advantage.' That in and of itself is a social construct, as is the dominance paradigm of horse training. For a while, we were taught that horses respect 'dominance' and dominate one another, but more recent studies have shown that this is a lousy model for how equines actually relate to one another. Humans, however, are prone to seeing the world and other creatures the framework of social hierarchy and apply it to everything. Horses learn to 'respect' their handlers through operative conditioning and thousands of years of domestication, which has made them responsive to humans and trainable. It would be a lot harder to train a zebra.

Now it is true that many men are more forceful and aggressive and blunt in their manner, but that's socialisation, not ingrained behaviour. This is sometimes useful with horses, but if the handler is too rough, abrupt, and inconsistent, it can freak them out. It's also true that many women are wishy-washy and 'girly' (to use a terrible, gendered word), and that does not get you far with horses. Little girls are socialised to not be 'bossy' or 'bitchy' while society rewards little boys for similar sorts of behaviour, so without any prior training, they may approach the horse differently. But one won't be more effective than the other unless the person knows how to interact with horses. You need to be clear and firm and consistent, but that's learned, regardless of gender.

The only time I have seen horses react to a handler's gender are instances where the horse was abused (almost aways by a man in these cases), and the horse panics when it has to interact with men.

I agree with your points about social constructs and thats a large reason why men dominate the horse sports as riders and trainers even today, and with training we cant make generalisations about gender strengths and weaknesses.

I guess im talking more of the subtler senses of animals in general and if these subtle senses enable horses to pick up the natural ‘nature’ of a person, as being either dominant or soft.
Like dogs who sense fear, smell cancers. They say we release pheromones with our reactions so maybe animals smell these to detect more accutely our mood and intent? We as humans even detect these pheromones in oneanother apparently.

“The only time I have seen horses react to a handler's gender are instances where the horse was abused (almost aways by a man in these cases), and the horse panics when it has to interact with men.”

This observation of yours proves the point im wondering about. How do these abused horses in this instance know when a man is approaching it verses a woman? Is it the smell? It cant be visually as We all look the same in yard boots trousers and coats. Voices arent even gender specific. Men have 10 times more testosterone than women, while women have 10 times more estrogen than men. Can animals detect our gender via subtle sense smell of these hormones or pheromones released via this hormonal signature?

Its these subtler senses that intrigue me, and i wonder if we had a deeper understanding of them it would help unlock deeper insight in training with horses.

Like my dog. She loves everyone. Anyone new she will approach barking, then wags her tail while sniffing them, checking them out. Absolutely everyone she’s fine with, except one person upon meeting him. I noted this. She wouldnt appproach him, just stands 6 feet from him continuously barking. she barks to alert me he’s turned up, even her bark is different, same with the other dog. Its a warning bark, with aggression. This person has ‘acted’ friendly to us in all these years except the past year his true nasty, aggressive colours have shown. My dogs were right about him all along! How did they detect this upon first meeting him? Evidently there was something aside from his overt physical, vocal behaviour of friendliness they could detect.

My gelding has always been difficult with his rear feet handling due to being forced by someone when younger. Since then he was a git with his back feet handling. It became a vicious circle. I persisted but was in a recurring mindset of “he hates his back feet being handled”. I then of course, due to his behaviour approached him with dread of battling with him and his back feet. Everytime, i brought dread to our interraction, just when handling his feet sessions.
I realised this and tried to then turn this mindset around and my approach, after getting my OH, to just pick up his feet.
No problem! He gave his foot! No asking twice needed!
It was a eureka moment even though at the time i didnt understand the reasons.
I asked my OH if he felt dread before picking up his feet, no he said. Despite knowing this issue with the gelding, he approached the action with no feeling or mindset of dread. I asked if he questioned in his mind if the horse would give his foot or not. No. No questioning, no projecting onto the horse of ‘possible scenarios of result based on horses past behaviour’
He didnt/doesnt do the handling of the horses feet much, mainly me.
So i identified that i needed to be neutral in approaching these sessions in feeling and mind about the issue, and stop expecting the horse to misbehave, despite his previous behaviour.
Thats easier said than done, and did take me practice, due to it having become a ‘thing’ for me and therefore horse!

Next session when i fully ‘neutralised’ myself and stopped projecting any expected behaviour at the horse, he picked up his back feet instantly. I was relieved. The horse yawned. I was just floored. I was elated and so depressed too. I found a crucial answer to general horse problems, by identifying that me, and we as humans generally, are a large part creating the behaviour issues by re-projecting onto the animal expectations based on its previous behaviour.
Identifying the more subtler language of interractions has helped me solve, since, more issues i had.

In the extreme scenario, a horse with really bad behaviour can make an owner fearful. Theyre huge, its easy to fear being easily hurt by such strength and mass that a horse is. And once in the ‘fear’ loop with a horse its hard for the owner to get themselves out of it. An outside trainer is brought in and success with the horse is more likely, as the trainer doesnt have the fear signature in their approach and handling of the horse.
Yet in the case you mentioned above of the horse hating all men, due to abuse, meant it could a) detect men via some signature a man has oppossed to a woman and B) could never be trained by a man no matter how neutral that man was in approaching the horse.

So abused horses, despite their gender, must be the most difficult cases, due to their self-protection animalistic instinct being so strong, having been made this way, due to the abusive handling. So this type of horse is stuck in it own ‘loop’ of fearful/reactive behaviour, and like us, have to be shown a way of breaking the loop.

Intriguing and thought provoking answers youve all given...really interesting! Thanks so much for sharing your experiences

 

[Caol Ila]

I mean, yes to all of that. 99.9% of horse problems are created by humans, and we often get the behaviour we expect. This is what we learned as kids in the riding school back in the 90s, when the instructor would shout, "If you expect him to spook in that corner, he'll spook in that corner!" Horses read us better than we read ourselves and mirror us. It's why they're great as therapy animals. It's also basic horsemanship, but something a lot of people forget. If I had a pound for every horse who was a lunatic for its owner but foot-perfect with a trainer or someone else without the owner's 'baggage,' I'd be a millionaire. Mark Rashid says that whenever he works with a difficult horse, he behaves as though it isn't a difficult horse, and that in and of itself changes the horse's behaviour.

I think horses can differentiate between male and female humans, but I still believe it's bullsh**t that testosterone = natural dominance, especially to a horse. In wild populations, females lead the herd. Unless a horse has experience to the contrary, the gender of the human handling them doesn't make a blind bit of difference, but their demeanor and horsemanship skills (or lack thereof) obviously do. As I said before, this is perhaps the only point where an inexperienced man *might* have some advantage over an equally as inexperienced woman. Speaking in totally overbroad generalisations, men learn from a young age to be forthright and direct when they ask for things, whereas women are socialised to be more subordinate and indirect. If you ask for the horse's foot in a manner where you expect he will give it to you, he probably will. If you're withdrawn and waffley in your body language and not direct nor clear, he might not. However, if you have spent any time around horsewomen, you will find them to be a pretty forthright bunch who don't take sh **t and don't conform to that female stereotype!

 

[honetpot]

I think horses, and people can recognise people by shape as men or women. Its not only their clothing, but proportions and the way they move. Has no one watched Midsummer Murders and just seen the gloves, and said that was a women. Or the stunt double that they try and pass off as a women in a wig and a dress, which even at a distance looks all wrong.
Some people just rub animals up the wrong way, they are usually abrupt, a stockperson moves a bit like John Wayne, there is a certain predicatbility in their movement, which animals find reassuring.

 

[Cortez]

It completely depends on the individual horse - I've had wonderful (and horrible) horses of all genders. I would naturally gravitate towards stallions for their power and show-offishness, but without a doubt my very best horses have always been mares. Geldings are a teensy bit boring.....

 

[HollyWoozle]

again I think you still have to take the horse as an individual though
I have one that is definitely on my side, she's trained to a point way, way in excess of what I ever dreamed for her and we have a great connection, but she is as wimpy as they come most of the time, she's all mouth & no trousers I'm the protector
My other mares have all been quite bold but she's got a very high sense of self preservation and that's very much at the surface most of the time

Of course, each horse is different, but my own personal experiences have led me to that opinion overall.

 

[maya2008]

I love mares. They think for themselves and help out where they can. I love that they will remind me of things, show me the damaged fence, take the initiative on a hack or in the school (or in the dressage test when I forgot whether it was left or right after the centre line - lovely mare did it for me ?). Our Shetland mare will look after my children and actively teach them to be better riders. I can take my 5yo daughter hacking and know that her pony will do the adulting and keep her safe- far more than being obedient, she actively looks after her. But you have to treat them right; get their loyalty.

Our gelding is a great peacemaker in the field, solid and reliable under saddle and ever so sweet. But....he worries about doing the wrong thing, and does prefer me to think for him!

 

[fburton]

I guess im talking more of the subtler senses of animals in general and if these subtle senses enable horses to pick up the natural ‘nature’ of a person, as being either dominant or soft.

Does calm confidence fit in this scale, or is it something else?

 

[PurBee]

Does calm confidence fit in this scale, or is it something else?

Yes, our ‘state of being’ whatever that state is, animals seem to have an acute sense of.
We refer to it as 6th sense, when we ourselves detect ‘vibes’ from another. It’s not overt behaviour we’re picking up, its not even by their words, its all the more subtler cues like micro-expressions of face, body language and their general ‘energy’, we do read these signals but its a subtler language than the overt senses are detecting.

I recall reading an article recently on a study of horses reacting to their owners facial expressions. Quite bemusing to think that a study was needed for that one! Evidently the over-riding belief is that horses take no notice whatsoever of humans except when we display overt physical behaviour, a belief many now know to be erroneous.

 

[PurBee]

I love mares. They think for themselves and help out where they can. I love that they will remind me of things, show me the damaged fence, take the initiative on a hack or in the school (or in the dressage test when I forgot whether it was left or right after the centre line - lovely mare did it for me ?). Our Shetland mare will look after my children and actively teach them to be better riders. I can take my 5yo daughter hacking and know that her pony will do the adulting and keep her safe- far more than being obedient, she actively looks after her. But you have to treat them right; get their loyalty.

Our gelding is a great peacemaker in the field, solid and reliable under saddle and ever so sweet. But....he worries about doing the wrong thing, and does prefer me to think for him!

Mares are incredible aren’t they? Mine instantly shouts at me from the field when the gelding is up to no good, or something is wrong. i have faith in her antics!