stallion grading

argyle

argyle

Well-Known Member
Joined
29 June 2007
Messages
351
Location
Kent
www.southerncrossstud.com
We have a 2 year old hanoverian colt and are currently debating whether to keep him entire. I know we can take him to the pregrading at the breed society's show but ideally i am looking for someone who does preparation for gradings to look him over in case he is a definate no. Iif it is worth putting him forward then we would like someone who is experienced in this to prepare him and present him.

Any suggestions?
 
I've had the same thoughts with stallion gradings.
If i had a young horse i would spend a few pennies and get the job done right i think.
 
Edward Evans at Westpoint Stud, Llanymynach near Oswestry could be your man! He has been successful with all types and was quoted in H & H last year as one of the best! His number is 01691 831059 The stud have a site and they stand Fulton among others. He's a decent genuine chap too!
 
What about our very own BBMat!
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I understand his horse has just passed it's stallion grading, I'm sure he'll be on later with some great advice
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you don't need to spend money on getting a 'pro' to get your horse graded

If it's good enough it WILL stand on it's own merits

Unlike 'showing' grading isn't and should't be 'who holds the lead rein' but what is the quality of that horse

My own homebred 2 yr old stallion graded and I'm a 'nobody'

If you have a good vet who is a true horse vet - get the senior partner in your practice to give an unbiased assessment of your 2 yr old as if he was looking at it for a 5stage vetting

is it sound, does it pass flexion tests, does it move straight, are it's pasterns too long/short, is it too short/long in the back, etc etc etc

then go ahead and teach your boy to loose jump and to stand square for inspection ,etc

you can do this yourself and save yourself a lot of money - but only if the horse itself is the quality that is needed.
 
I strongly disagree with airedale on this subject..

As with young horse/showing classes, a good rider/handler can improve the overall appearance of a stallion and make it behave in a way that is acceptable at a grading, and a bad rider or handler could reduce a good stallions chances of being graded by presenting them poorly.

Also they are not expected to stand square, the preferred stance for a stallion whilst stood still is with the legs slightly off square so that the judge can see the insides of the legs as he/she walks around the horse.

The idea of gradings isn't to say that the horse that is presented is able to go and jump a GP track or do a GP dressage test, but to show, as well as you can, his potential for good work in the future and positive attributes that will improve this countries stock.

As you say you cannot change a horses conformation etc, but you can enable the horse to show a slightly more advanced/experienced/relaxed way of going, to give a clearer picture of what may be expected from him in the future.

I have heard many people who have had stallions that have been so close to grading, but their way of going under saddle/loose over jumps/comp. record has let them down, having gained good marks in the conformation/trot up.

If you have a stallion that is good conformationally and is a nice straight mover with a good jump, I can see no harm in investing in him to improve his chances of grading.

I would be more than happy to come and have a look for you argyle!
 
Airedale, I know it is wrong and it does not happen at every grading, and I would imagine a lot of people will shout at me for saying this but a stallion would stand a much greater chance of passing it's test if it turned up with carl hester and expensive tack and equipment and professional grooms etc. than it would if it turned up with a an amateur owner/rider that had little experience in this field. I have seen many stallions fail as 2 or 3 year olds with their owners, they have been sent away for professional schooling and have been re-presented later and passed with flying colours. This is certainly due to good, knowledgeable handling and training by the producer, but a recogniseable face or name put with a stallion can improve it's likeability. people are going to shout at me for saying this too, but a smart tall male rider will always look better on a stallion than most women. This is only my opinion, don't moan at me!
When somebody has done a few gradings before, they will also know how things run and exactly what to do to show the horse off to it's best, when it is your first time with a young stallion that can be a little difficult, it is easy to get flustered and wound-up and this can rub off onto the horse.
I think it would be a fantastic idea to send your youngster away to be produced and presented at a grading. What is the worst that can happen? If it fails, try harder or geld it! A producer will tell you outright also whether they think a horse wil pass or not.
 
I have to agree with bbmat and centrestage on this subject!

Airedale, I suggest you go and watch a few more stallion gradings...I highly recommend you attend a few AES ones! You will have your eyes opened to the real world!
 
Thanks all, bbmat -where are you based? (we're in Kent).

Whilst I agree with Airedale that the horse should stand on its own merits, I also feel that a young horse will benefit from having the quiet, experienced handling of a "pro" rather than mum's nerves! Personally I am not sure that my horse is good enough, which is why I would appreciate a more trained eye to give me a more considered opinion. We are lucky in that we have had him since a foal and have him at home with a playmate so we have been able to give him time to see how he matures.
 
bbmat is near Gloucester.

A stallion should stand on it own merits but unfortunately in the world of stallion gradings this isn't alway the case. Gradings are judged by people, people who have preferences, therefore will more likely to lean to a nice stallion ridden by a pro than an equally as nice stallion ridden by an unknown. After hearing a judge tell someone that they didn't like their rider, when they asked for reasons and tips onto why their stallion failed, I would recommend that anyone wanting to get their stallion graded, get a pro to take the stallion forward, therefore giving the stallion its best chance of grading (unless of course you are Carl Hester, Pippa Funnell or a Whitaker then you can take your own stallion! lol!
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Argyle I can highly recommend bbmat he has my 4yo stallion at the moment, I am very happy with the work he is doing with him.
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I am just glad Airedale isn't a judge at a stallion grading......... because it wouldn't matter how good the stallion was.......... it wouldn't grade if it was coloured, grey or not british bred.
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hehehe HorseGroupie, you get a slap from airedale for that, I am slightly afraid of airedale, from reading some posts and I don't even know him/her?!!!
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I am sure they are a very nice person really.
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p.s Don't shout at me airedale
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I think a lot of gradings go more on who you are / who you know rather than the horse, unless of course the horse has already won all over the place at top level and the graders would be able to find no reason not to grade it.

I saw a stallion trotted up by a very well known international showjumper misbehave, then the very next stallion in misbehaved in exactly the same way, but was actually asked to trot up again. Say what you want but favouritism does exist is these circles.

I've also been horrified to see that some stallions barely get looked at by the assessors and their handlers barely acknowledged, like they have already made their mind up not to grade it. I was appalled at the one grading I have been to, plus there were no score sheets or evaluation forms of any description given out so an owner had no idea what (if anything!) was wrong with their stallion compared to another.

I also think another well-known studbook is so worried they might make a wrong decision about whether a young 3/4 year old horse (with no record) is any good, they refuse to grade any!!
 
Gawd, I'm rather frightened about taking my mare to a grading now.. Tis too late I'm entered, I'm certainly not Carl Hester and I don't really have a clue about gradings..
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PS. Are mare gradings just as bad?
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I have not done too many mare gradings as we tend to concentrate on stallions, but the one's I have been to don't seem to be as bad as the stallion gradings. I know this sounds horrible and again people will moan at me, but I got a distinct impression at the mare grading that they did not seem to think it was as important as a stallion grading, which is wrong as a mare and stallion grading should be treated the same, but that is how it felt. I was very impressed at a mare and foal grading I went to at Arena UK, they were very fair, very kind and approachable, and gave everybody some great tips. It was a very laid back atmosphere and the results were exactly how i had thought they would be. There was certainly no favouritism and everybody was treated as equal. (I was very happy as my filly by Painted Black got a first premium!)
I have been to one stallion grading and let's just say there was a rather famous face there with his OWN stallion. It looked quite poorly developed and small alongside some of the others but it had good breeding. The first time it trotted up, it cantered the whole way, they let him re-run which was fair enough, the second time it was slightly unlevel but to the point where they could not possibly overlook it, it was taken out of the ring and came back in right at the end, it trotted up again perfectly sound but it was not impressive in any way and it passed with flying colours! You could guarantee that if it was an unknown's horse it would have not even had a second thought.
I also agree with navalgem, the assessor's make their mind up right away if they are going to pass a horse, I even saw them chatting away, giggling and not even looking at one poor horse when it was doing it's loose jumping. It was a small 15.2hh coloured stallion and it was obvious that it would not pass as it had not one ounce of quality or talent, but I would have had at least enough decorum to watch it's performance, I found it quite rude by the judges.
 
if the raw material is top class and the handler is capable of encouraging the horse to perform correctly then a normal, capable person should be as able to produce a stallion for grading and succeed as a 'pro' - but without of course paying the 'pro' as shed load of cash.......

what I was saying was that with a stallion grading it isn't (yet) like county showing where the person holding the reins determines the outcome of the class

with gradings it IS still possible for a horse produced by a 'nobody' to grade succesffully without having a 'hame' at the end of the reins

obviously if the 'nobody' REALLY doesn't know what they are doing then they should hand a good horse over to someone who does

I'm a nobody - but I'm not someone who doesn't know how to produce a horse - that is the difference

Also0 with gradings judges are often foreign and so don't know the "oh that must be a good horse 'cos X is handling it" bit - they don't know necessarily BBmat from a good BHSI or whatever

THAT is the point I was making - not that a pro won't do a good job - they probably will

but if you know what you are doing then gradings are not as 'rigged' as showing classes are !!
 
the OP was questioning regarding a 2 yr old - therefore riding doesn't come into it at all (unless of course its a factory farmed over ridden 2 yr old from Germany ;-)) )

if it is a stallion that has to be shown under saddle as well - then obviously a very good rider will produce a good 'show' compared with a novice rider
 
oh - I'm not scary - I'm just blunt and I don't do 'cute and cuddly' ;-))

the OP was talking about non-ridden stallion

I also would never ever judge a coloured horse class as I accept my own personal bias

but I wish other judges were as honest about their prejudice and remove themselves from judging certain classes

the gradings I have been to - all the horses have been issued with grading sheets giving marks for every aspect of their performance - ridden, in hand, loose jumping, conformation, attitude, etc both for mares and stallions

I actually - btw - like greys - to look at when someone else has had the trouble of getting the blighters clean !!

I have also been told (by someone in the AES) that it is a 'catchall' for horses that won't grade anywhere else - now THAT will upset a few people !!!!
 
Yes, I have also heard that if you can't get your horse through a grading anywhere go a to a AES one and you might just get it graded. Don't quote me on this though this is what I heard from somebody else.
 
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I am slightly afraid of airedale, from reading some posts

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You'll soon find that whenever the word 'breeding' 'stallion' 'coloured' or 'grey' come up that airedale is there! She really isn't that scary she just has tunnel vision when it comes to certain subjects! I admire her passion for her cause but she does do over kill sometimes in her replies!
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PS Honestly there are times when Airedale and I agree!!!
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Gawd, I'm rather frightened about taking my mare to a grading now

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Don't panic, I have found all the mare gradings far more relaxed and friendly, from the mare gradings i've been too, they seem far more straight forward and transparent than the stallion gradings! Good Luck xxx
 
wow !!

thanks

but I grew up to be taught - why call a spade a 'metal earth moving device' when you can just call it a shovel ;-))

and you missed out two colours - palomino and chestnut (particularly mares - hehe)
 
Airedale!!! A spade and a shovel are 2 VERY different metal earth moving devices i'd have you know!
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Back to the grey thing, your reply on this thread is very different to those I have read by you on several other threads, have you changed you opinion or are you getting soft in your twilighting years?? The impression you have given on grey horses in the past is that they should be eradicated because they have a higher chance of getting melonomas! If someone has mentioned they like a grey stallion you have hammered them with asking why would you want to breed a grey....etc etc etc! I was under the impression that you thought grey horses should all be sterilised!
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"I have also been told (by someone in the AES) that it is a 'catchall' for horses that won't grade anywhere else - now THAT will upset a few people !!!!"

whats a catchall? sorry airedale this bit got me lost, blame the blonde highlights!

Consider this BBmat, however good he is, still isn't john whittaker for example and a good producer who can produce to very high levels probably will get a stallion graded (such as BBmat), but your average 'capable' horse handler probably wont as they wont have experience of producing to a high level. It's not so much the handling than the producing though I agree a good handler is preferable to a bad one. What we are saying isn't that it is impssible for a nobody to get a horse graded, it's unlikely. And that worse or equal horses, presented by a name will grade compared to ones presented by no-ones which wont. There are 'county' level biases in grading, some horses win at county level who are produced by nobodies, I suspect a similar amount to those that grade presented by 'nobodies'. Although, not all studbooks are the same perhaps some are more leniant or want good stallions not good names on thir books!

The AES dont issue grading sheets at the stallion gradings.
 
you've definitely confused my with another poster
I've never commented about grey stallions or melanomas
my only comment on greys is that I wouldn't own one as they are hard work to look after - and that if I was offered a non-grey or a grey as a livery I'd not take the grey sa it would be much harder work to look after than the bay e.g.

Nope NOT me on grey stallions - however there is a risk of melanomas with all greys - mares, geldings and stallions - and I would find it heartbreaking and do for those affected

so you ARE confusing me with someone else in this case
 
aaah - so it IS the AES that don't issue sheets....

mmmmmmmm

and I've been to gradings as far back as those held at Goodwood indoor school 20 years ago...............a VERY long time hehehe
 
It is a fact that a stallion will stand a better chance at the gradings if he is shown in a professional manner. Sorry Airedale but we are not talking ponies. A pro will turn out & handle the stallion showing him off to his very best. The judges are not stupid but it will help with marks if the stallion is presented well. And Airedale I wish you would change the record, quote "(unless of course its a factory farmed over ridden 2 yr old from Germany ;-)) You keep making out this is normal practice & it is not. I am not going to keep going round in circles with you over this, as it is completly boring now. And I do believe that there is an ad in the H&H for a 3yr old that is already jumping, the ad shows it jumping. Umm I always thought it was better for their legs to wait until they were 4yrs. So I would say it is not just Germany that produces their horses a little earlier then we would take as the norm!!
 
I attended a seminar given by Johan Knaap, director of the KWPN and found it very informative. He ran his audience through numerous tips of how to improve your horse by presenting him/her correctly, discussing the training that they would expect any young horse to go through prior to an inspection.

It was a few years ago now so don't remember all of the details the one i do remember are, never use a chain under a stallions chin, he is likely to ewe neck in defence..

Always ask a stallion to lower his head and neck in order to show the horses back at its best. A horses back will naturally raise when presented in this manner presenting a better top line - the Dutch don't like "seated" backs.

Always present the horse with the horses hind leg standing back, a horse presented square may appear "sickle hocked" if he is not balanced correctly.

He also stated that the reason they prefer to have stallions mares and foals shown loose in the UK, is because the Brits don't know how to "run " a horse well to show his movement at its best - oops!

He then asked the handlers to make several changes to how they were showing their horse both in motion and for conformation analysis, it was quite enlightening to see the overall improvement when the handlers made those changes.

Personally I think everyone should take stallion Grading results with a pinch of salt, both here in the UK and abroad. No matter how good the training of a judge its a subjective issue.
 
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