Stallion gradings

[magic104]

Can someone enlighten me, have these horses been passed by the IDUK?
http://www.idhsgb.com/web/staticpages/index.php/colt_inspections

If so then I am confused as to how these gradings work. I maybe mistaken & it would not be the first time, but I am sure one of those boys failed the SHBGB grading. Even if I am mistaken, is it not about time mare owners had more visibility of these stallions.

Why can we not know their marks? Why is there nothing about what sort of mare they are likely to suit? Back in the early 90's I had A5 cards for a number of European stallions. The card showed a photo of the stallion, on the back his breeding along with info on his grading & the type of mare he would best suit. I was reminded of this after reading another post. What is saddening is that here in the UK, we have not moved forward. You go to the gradings & they share NOTHING. Oh you might get a few words on why a stallion has passed, but otherwise zilch.

Graders do get it wrong & though I would not use an ungraded stallion, I dont think any less of those that choose to. After all not all the mares I have used have been graded or put forward for grading. And I am a great believer the mare is more important then the stallion. The difference is a mare cant produce as many offspring as a stallion.

The reason I would like to see information on the stallion as above is judging by how many posts "What Stallion should I use", this info is sorely needed. Mare owners need to have guidance from a trustworthy source. It is always more difficult with a young stallion, but surely this is where his blood lines play a part?

I am also curious about sport horse breeding, why so limited in the breeds forward with SHBUK? It might seem obvious to the more experienced out there, but why for instance no QH's, Morgans or Andulusians. The SHB are happy to pass a stallion with incomplete breeding so why are minority breeds not being encouraged? After all most of the horses being bred by SHB graded stallions are low level compeition horses. Is it because a QH for instance does not comply with what is thought of as a Sports Horse, even when crossed with say a TB?

 

[sywell]

There is much more information from the major studbooks as you say the EBV and bar charts to show how a stallions passes on its heritable traits. There is some confusion i am sure about the differance between licensing which is a studbook activity and performance testing which is not carried out by the studbooks in most cases. Also in young stallions who do not do a 70 day test then the yearly competion results are used and become stricter as the stallion goes from 3 to 6 years old. On the Hanoverian website hannoveraner.com in the stallion directory you will find the full information about a stallion and also in English soon mare bloodlines going back a very long way.

 

[Blacklist]

Can someone enlighten me, have these horses been passed by the IDUK?
http://www.idhsgb.com/web/staticpages/index.php/colt_inspections

If so then I am confused as to how these gradings work. I maybe mistaken & it would not be the first time, but I am sure one of those boys failed the SHBGB grading. Even if I am mistaken, is it not about time mare owners had more visibility of these stallions.

Why can we not know their marks? Why is there nothing about what sort of mare they are likely to suit? Back in the early 90's I had A5 cards for a number of European stallions. The card showed a photo of the stallion, on the back his breeding along with info on his grading & the type of mare he would best suit. I was reminded of this after reading another post. What is saddening is that here in the UK, we have not moved forward. You go to the gradings & they share NOTHING. Oh you might get a few words on why a stallion has passed, but otherwise zilch.

Graders do get it wrong & though I would not use an ungraded stallion, I dont think any less of those that choose to. After all not all the mares I have used have been graded or put forward for grading. And I am a great believer the mare is more important then the stallion. The difference is a mare cant produce as many offspring as a stallion.

The reason I would like to see information on the stallion as above is judging by how many posts "What Stallion should I use", this info is sorely needed. Mare owners need to have guidance from a trustworthy source. It is always more difficult with a young stallion, but surely this is where his blood lines play a part?

I am also curious about sport horse breeding, why so limited in the breeds forward with SHBUK? It might seem obvious to the more experienced out there, but why for instance no QH's, Morgans or Andulusians. The SHB are happy to pass a stallion with incomplete breeding so why are minority breeds not being encouraged? After all most of the horses being bred by SHB graded stallions are low level compeition horses. Is it because a QH for instance does not comply with what is thought of as a Sports Horse, even when crossed with say a TB?

All very good points

 

[Simsar]

Can someone enlighten me, have these horses been passed by the IDUK? Yes they have passed but I would like to say that the photo of Tully's Court is apalling! I love this stallion and after he graded he went straight of to a days hunting!!

http://www.idhsgb.com/web/staticpages/index.php/colt_inspections

If so then I am confused as to how these gradings work. I maybe mistaken & it would not be the first time, but I am sure one of those boys failed the SHBGB grading. One of them may well have not passed with SHB GB don't get what your getting at with that point?? Even if I am mistaken, is it not about time mare owners had more visibility of these stallions.

Why can we not know their marks? We have asked the very same question the answer is pretty vague too. But the stallion owners will tell you if you ask. Why is there nothing about what sort of mare they are likely to suit? Because who would be so bold as to say what kind of mare a stallion would suit, what I mean is you need to see for yourself surely. Back in the early 90's I had A5 cards for a number of European stallions. The card showed a photo of the stallion, on the back his breeding along with info on his grading & the type of mare he would best suit. That doesn't mean that your foal will turn out what you want it to be though. I was reminded of this after reading another post. What is saddening is that here in the UK, we have not moved forward. You go to the gradings & they share NOTHING. Oh you might get a few words on why a stallion has passed, but otherwise zilch.

Graders do get it wrong & though I would not use an ungraded stallion, each to there own but I bet you would use a TB?? I think that's a cop out to say that you wouldn't use an ungraded stallion, what does it matter if you like the stallion and it suits your mare and you know the breeding has results then why not use him???? I dont think any less of those that choose to. After all not all the mares I have used have been graded or put forward for grading EXACTLY!!!. And I am a great believer the mare is more important then the stallion. 50/50 surely! The difference is a mare cant produce as many offspring as a stallion.

The reason I would like to see information on the stallion as above is judging by how many posts "What Stallion should I use", this info is sorely needed. Then people become like sheep! and then are blinded by their own choices. Mare owners need to have guidance from a trustworthy. It is always more difficult with a young stallion, but surely this is where his blood lines play a part?

I am also curious about sport horse breeding, why so limited in the breeds forward with SHBUK? It might seem obvious to the more experienced out there, but why for instance no QH's, Morgans or Andulusians They have there own stud books SHB the original was about Hunter now the bloody foreign horses have to be included, it is like we have to be PC!. The SHB are happy to pass a stallion with incomplete breeding so why are minority breeds not being encouraged? After all most of the horses being bred by SHB graded stallions are low level compeition horses. Is it because a QH for instance does not comply with what is thought of as a Sports Horse, even when crossed with say a TB?

What do you breed and what do you do with these horses and what results do you have.?? Will probably change this but this post is a slate and I'm sorry about the rant but it makes me sick when people put posts on like this.

 

[Blacklist]

All very good points

Sorry to all I have made a boo boo though i was agreeing with a different thread and didn't read first and was unable to edit and remove my approval

 

[magic104]

Simsar I’m not as cleaver as you, I have no idea how to get the different coloured type, so hope this makes sense.

One of them may well have not passed with SHB GB don't get what your getting at with that point?? - I suppose the point is, if a horse can pass with one society why would another fail it?

Because who would be so bold as to say what kind of mare a stallion would suit, what I mean is you need to see for yourself surely. - Because the stallion owner will see far more offspring from their stallion then the mare owner, along with the mare. Also as I said Europeans were offering this service, still do. Do not try telling me every mare owner knows enough about conformation etc & what is going to suit their mare, because that is so obviously not the case judging by how many posts on "What stallion for my mare".

That doesn't mean that your foal will turn out what you want it to be though. - No & full siblings show nothing can be relied on, but it can still give an indication.

each to there own but I bet you would use a TB?? I think that's a cop out to say that you wouldn't use an ungraded stallion, what does it matter if you like the stallion and it suits your mare and you know the breeding has results then why not use him???? - Why is it a cop out? Using an ungraded stallion has been done to death on here, so you know full well the pro arguments.

Even if he suited my mare & his offspring were getting results, no I would not consider him, because there are 100's of graded stallions to pick from. - No because I dont want to encourage the use of ungraded stallions, I dont want us going back 20yrs. No one thinks about it now, because you take it for granted, but would you intentionally buy a product that was not kitemarked? Would you buy a riding hat that did not conform to the relevant standards? Why do we even have standards? Apart from safety, it is to bring everything into line so you don’t have one country lowering their standards ensuring all vendors are working together. Understanding the standard ensures you know what your product is fit for. It costs a lot of money for a company to put their products through testing & not all tests were compulsory, but they want the consumer to have faith in their product. Grading is a standard, which appears to differ from one stud book to another, but it is better then nothing. I know the stallion has passed certain tests including a vetting, yes we all know of the stallions that failed but their owners kept faith & were proved correct in doing so.

50/50 surely! – No sorry, IMO the mare is at least 60% responsible for the foal, for one thing she is the one raising it, she is the one teaching it how to interact with both humans & other animals.

Then people become like sheep! and then are blinded by their own choices – Perhaps they should not be breeding then! If someone is breeding to sell, then of course it pays to use a commercial stallion. But time and again I see the same horses put up when a mare owner has asked which stallion for my mare. Having information about the stallion though, might actually add to the mix, because it would give mare owners alternatives that they may not have thought of.

They have there own stud books SHB the original was about Hunter now the bloody foreign horses have to be included, it is like we have to be PC!. – But it is no longer the case, it is a Sport Horse Breeding society, therefore it should not matter what breed, so long as it can add to the sporthorse mix. A mare that is graded can visit any approved stallion & her offspring can be reg SHBUK, so it does not eliminate the use of other breeds, but it does not make you think about them. I don’t mind a foreign horse, so long as he is not a FAILED foreign horse. If you want mare owners to stick with UK bred horses, then the UK needs to encourage their respect for the grading systems we have here. They need to feel confident that the stallion bred here is every bit as good as the European bred & tested stallion, as do the buyers of the offspring. The majority of horses bred in the UK are for the leisure rider who competes at Riding Club level or lower end affiliated competitions, they are not pro riders. That does not mean to say that we don’t have to aim for the best that we should lower the bench mark. I have used a foreign bred horse, well he was born in Ireland, I think that makes him foreign!

I dont see why we cant have one body like the Kennel Club do.

 

[millitiger]

i totally agree with you magic- i wish the gradings were more transparent with comments on the stallions which have passed AND failed.

marks being published would be a huge step forward and make chosing which stallions to use much easier- if you know you need to improve your mare's forelimbs you could instantly rule out any stallion with poor forelimb marks.
equally if you have a dual purpose or eventing mare who moves very well but needs more shape over her fence or more gallop, you could look at the marks given and narrow down your shortlist accordingly without having to spend days visiting stallions which are unsuitable in the flesh.

while on the subject i also wish owners would be more truthful and upfront about their stallions achievements- my major bugbear is eventing stallions being marketed at Advanced when they are actually Intermediate eventers who have gained enough points to push them into Open classes. a HUGE difference imo between the 2 achievements.

 

[millitiger]

just thinking this over in my head and also would stop rumours doing the rounds about why stallions have failed.

there are a few very high profile stallions who supposedly failed on wonky front legs and then later graded- either the rumour about the legs was incorrect or they have graded in with poor conformation.
either way wouldn't it be nice to have the reasoning in black and white instead of having to rely on unfounded gossip (particularly if the horse is at the other end of the country and not so easy to pop in and look yourself).

 

[magic104]

just thinking this over in my head and also would stop rumours doing the rounds about why stallions have failed.

there are a few very high profile stallions who supposedly failed on wonky front legs and then later graded- either the rumour about the legs was incorrect or they have graded in with poor conformation.
either way wouldn't it be nice to have the reasoning in black and white instead of having to rely on unfounded gossip (particularly if the horse is at the other end of the country and not so easy to pop in and look yourself).

OMG you would think that would be such an obvous reason for being transparant & have the marks known, to stop just what you have written.

A horse who I believe has used his offspring to speak for themselves is Kremlin VII who I believe though licenced was not graded, but I stand to be corrected. This stallion has had (for the number of offspring) a fair amount of sucess, yet I hardly ever saw him suggested when mare owners were asking about eventing stallions. The other thing mare owners miss out on when stallions like this are not available through SHB is the voucher scheme. You go to the expense of grading your mare, receive the voucher, (which is a mighty help towards the stud fee), & are then limited to the SHB stallions. Now if we had one grading system, it could bring costs down for both stallion & mare owner. All the stud books could use it, it could be a central venue for training future evaluators. It could also be used to stage a quarterly auction of all UK bred offspring.

 

[magic104]

Question "If so then I am confused as to how these gradings work. I maybe mistaken & it would not be the first time, but I am sure one of those boys failed the SHBGB grading. Even if I am mistaken, is it not about time mare owners had more visibility of these stallions."

Answer "Take Hickstead for example, he failed his inital inspection with the KWPN, he was licensed with the NRPS, he competed with success and was later granted approval with his stud book of origin the KWPN. Totilas failed initial inspection with the KWPN but has also been granted approval based on his success in competition.

Many household names present a number of stallions each year to their mother stud books, many of which fail and are castrated, but some are still presented for licensing with other European stud books and are often successful, these are usually stallions who's owners have confidence that the stallion is worthy of keeping entire and recognise that the breeding directives of one stud book may not be the same as the other.

In recent years a fellow colleague presented their Oldenburg colt to his stud book of origin for initial license and was turned down, they then presented him to the ZfDp and was granted provisional license, he competed his 30 day performance test and on the basis of his performance test results was granted further approval by the ZfDp. His performance test results were then represented to Oldenburg and he was granted approval having been initially rejected by his mother stud book at first presentation. He then went on to complete his 70 day performance test and has now been granted life time approval with both stud books. His owners were able to acheive this result because they had a thorough understanding of how the system worked. Someone with less knowledge may simply have chosen to have the horse castrated."

The answer was found on a blogg but in a nut shell "breeding directives of one stud book may not be the same as the other" which is why a stallion in the UK can fail with the SHB but grade with a breed studbook, ie the IDUK or CHAPs.

 

[bettysmum]

I get confused with all the studbook rules to and just wonderd how many times a stallion can come for grading with each studbok if it fails

 

[Maesfen]

which is why a stallion in the UK can fail with the SHB but grade with a breed studbook, ie the IDUK or CHAPs.

CHAPS? A BREED? It's a Type Society, not a breed society, nothing more, nothing less.

Have to admit that if they're not (grading societies and stallion owners themselves too, prepared to divulge results then I'm not prepared to use them (in a nutshell) They have to be open about where a stallion passes or fails otherwise they're expecting us to follow their lead blindly; why should we? If they're good enough to be in a stud book of some description then they should be good enough to have their marks open for analysing by all and sundry so novice breeders, of which there seem to be more than ever lately, have a chance of making an informed choice based on their own mares.
When I graded my mare with SHBGB recently, I was asked why I hadn't used a graded stallion. My reply was the stallion I've used has already shown he passes on his ability and his conformation suits my mare; IF he had been graded I would still have used him on her so the only difference was, I picked the stallion most likely to compliment her regardless of his bit of paper. Some stallions with their flashy bits of paper wouldn't suit her but should I use one of those instead? I don't think so. I do understand the foal won't have 'full' papers but it will have a passport which records the breeding (he is, I believe, the last direct link to a stallion that was acknowledged as very important in the breed, once MM has gone, that line is lost) and with full verified breeding, if it's good enough and does a job well, then it can always be graded itself and up the game that way.
Anyone wanting to breed should learn all they can about the good and bad points of conformation of their mare, that way they will be better informed on which stallion should suit it best, but by the same token, they should do the same homework on any stallion they're thinking of using; it is no good just going by that bit of paper, that will mean diddly squat in some cases because it would be such a bad match.
Don't expect every graded stallion to suit every mare, do your homework thoroughly first so you can make an informed decision to best suit your mare.

 

[magic104]

Don't expect every graded stallion to suit every mare, do your homework thoroughly first so you can make an informed decision to best suit your mare - There are enough graded stallions available, thanks also to AI that there is NEVER an issue in finding a graded stallion to suit the mare.

CHAPs is a type along with a Hunter which was the basis for Hunter Improvement Society as is a sportshorse. Anything that is of mixed breeding is technically a type surely? No one should feel they cant use an ungraded stallion, after all most people hardly ever use a graded mare. I just dont think its an excuse to say it suits the mare because there will always be a graded stallion that does. What is a better argument is that he has offspring doing the job you want from yours. That proves the stallion is upto the task of getting good competition stock. This falls down when using a young ungraded stallion, you have no offspring to judge. At the end of the day it is the choice of the mare owner.

 

[Simsar]

Simsar I’m not as cleaver as you, I have no idea how to get the different coloured type, so hope this makes sense.

One of them may well have not passed with SHB GB don't get what your getting at with that point?? - I suppose the point is, if a horse can pass with one society why would another fail it? They passed with the IDHS as a breed, They didn't pass with the SHB GB because (I don't know this but one conclusion) they were not althletic enough, didn't have movement, many other reasons.


Because who would be so bold as to say what kind of mare a stallion would suit, what I mean is you need to see for yourself surely. - Because the stallion owner will see far more offspring from their stallion then the mare owner, along with the mare. Also as I said Europeans were offering this service, still do. Do not try telling me every mare owner knows enough about conformation etc & what is going to suit their mare, because that is so obviously not the case judging by how many posts on "What stallion for my mare". OK for breeders that are in it to win it or to do some serious competing should know the confo marks of their mare if they don't then they shouldn't be breeding from them. Other hobby breeders that just want to breed from the mare because its knackered well what can I say (I won't say anything)!!!! The people who want to breed from a horse that has done well for them again will also know what they should be looking for.

That doesn't mean that your foal will turn out what you want it to be though. - No & full siblings show nothing can be relied on, but it can still give an indication. So why can't an ungraded stallion do that??

each to there own but I bet you would use a TB?? I think that's a cop out to say that you wouldn't use an ungraded stallion, what does it matter if you like the stallion and it suits your mare and you know the breeding has results then why not use him???? - Why is it a cop out? Most TB's are not graded and you would use one of them I bet and the confo of some of them are appalling! but has you Using an ungraded stallion has been done to death on here, so you know full well the pro arguments. This argument has been done to death too its very boring.
Even if he suited my mare & his offspring were getting results, no I would not consider him, because there are 100's of graded stallions to pick from. - No because I dont want to encourage the use of ungraded stallions, I dont want us going back 20yrs. No one thinks about it now, because you take it for granted, but would you intentionally buy a product that was not kitemarked? Would you buy a riding hat that did not conform to the relevant standards? Why do we even have standards? Apart from safety, it is to bring everything into line so you don’t have one country lowering their standards ensuring all vendors are working together. Understanding the standard ensures you know what your product is fit for. It costs a lot of money for a company to put their products through testing & not all tests were compulsory, but they want the consumer to have faith in their product. Grading is a standard, which appears to differ from one stud book to another, but it is better then nothing. I know the stallion has passed certain tests including a vetting, yes we all know of the stallions that failed but their owners kept faith & were proved correct in doing so. Well that is complete ******S! because every grading I have been to in the last 5 yrs I have put my head in my hands wondering why oh why have they passed that crock of shite, so end of conversation!
50/50 surely! – No sorry, IMO the mare is at least 60% responsible for the foal, for one thing she is the one raising it, she is the one teaching it how to interact with both humans & other animals. And like some mares we have one she doesn't tell off at all so we have to do it so thats crap too!

Then people become like sheep! and then are blinded by their own choices – Perhaps they should not be breeding then! If someone is breeding to sell, then of course it pays to use a commercial stallion. But time and again I see the same horses put up when a mare owner has asked which stallion for my mare. Having information about the stallion though, might actually add to the mix, because it would give mare owners alternatives that they may not have thought of. See above a lot of people will not listen to any advise and as I said if they cannot research that's their fault.

They have there own stud books SHB the original was about Hunter now the bloody foreign horses have to be included, it is like we have to be PC!. – But it is no longer the case, it is a Sport Horse Breeding society, therefore it should not matter what breed, so long as it can add to the sporthorse mix. A mare that is graded can visit any approved stallion & her offspring can be reg SHBUK, so it does not eliminate the use of other breeds, but it does not make you think about them. I don’t mind a foreign horse, so long as he is not a FAILED foreign horse. If you want mare owners to stick with UK bred horses, then the UK needs to encourage their respect for the grading systems we have here. They need to feel confident that the stallion bred here is every bit as good as the European bred & tested stallion, as do the buyers of the offspring. The majority of horses bred in the UK are for the leisure rider who competes at Riding Club level or lower end affiliated competitions, they are not pro riders. That does not mean to say that we don’t have to aim for the best that we should lower the bench mark. I have used a foreign bred horse, well he was born in Ireland, I think that makes him foreign!

I dont see why we cant have one body like the Kennel Club do.

Oh I can't be bothered!

 

[Simsar]

just thinking this over in my head and also would stop rumours doing the rounds about why stallions have failed.

there are a few very high profile stallions who supposedly failed on wonky front legs and then later graded- either the rumour about the legs was incorrect or they have graded in with poor conformation.
either way wouldn't it be nice to have the reasoning in black and white instead of having to rely on unfounded gossip (particularly if the horse is at the other end of the country and not so easy to pop in and look yourself).

Like I said this goes on a lot!!!!!

 

[Simsar]

CHAPS? A BREED? It's a Type Society, not a breed society, nothing more, nothing less. LOL!
Have to admit that if they're not (grading societies and stallion owners themselves too, prepared to divulge results then I'm not prepared to use them (in a nutshell) Perfect look into the stallion before you go see him BE have a results page, and the owner should tell how he scored. They have to be open about where a stallion passes or fails otherwise they're expecting us to follow their lead blindly; why should we? If they're good enough to be in a stud book of some description then they should be good enough to have their marks open for analysing by all and sundry so novice breeders, of which there seem to be more than ever lately, have a chance of making an informed choice based on their own mares.
When I graded my mare with SHBGB recently, I was asked why I hadn't used a graded stallion. My reply was the stallion I've used has already shown he passes on his ability and his conformation suits my mare; IF he had been graded I would still have used him on her so the only difference was, I picked the stallion most likely to compliment her regardless of his bit of paper. The perfect mare owner. Some stallions with their flashy bits of paper wouldn't suit her but should I use one of those instead? I don't think so. I do understand the foal won't have 'full' papers but it will have a passport which records the breeding (he is, I believe, the last direct link to a stallion that was acknowledged as very important in the breed, once MM has gone, that line is lost) and with full verified breeding, if it's good enough and does a job well, then it can always be graded itself and up the game that way. What classes and entries ask for a graded stallion anyway apart from showing??

Anyone wanting to breed should learn all they can about the good and bad points of conformation of their mare, that way they will be better informed on which stallion should suit it best, but by the same token, they should do the same homework on any stallion they're thinking of using; it is no good just going by that bit of paper, that will mean diddly squat in some cases because it would be such a bad match.
Don't expect every graded stallion to suit every mare, do your homework thoroughly first so you can make an informed decision to best suit your mare.

MFH thank you.

 

[Simsar]

Don't expect every graded stallion to suit every mare, do your homework thoroughly first so you can make an informed decision to best suit your mare - There are enough graded stallions available, thanks also to AI that there is NEVER an issue in finding a graded stallion to suit the mare.

CHAPs is a type along with a Hunter which was the basis for Hunter Improvement Society as is a sportshorse. As said above perhaps that is why the ID boys didn't pass. Anything that is of mixed breeding is technically a type surely? No one should feel they cant use an ungraded stallion, after all most people hardly ever use a graded mare. Very good point (just wish I had thought of it!)I just dont think its an excuse to say it suits the mare because there will always be a graded stallion that does. What is a better argument is that he has offspring doing the job you want from yours. That proves the stallion is upto the task of getting good competition stock. This falls down when using a young ungraded stallion, you have no offspring to judge. At the end of the day it is the choice of the mare owner.

Yes it does but like I say you take a chance with any stallion so don't knock the young boys.

 

[Maesfen]

CHAPs is a type thank you for amending your previous description of CHAPS along with a Hunter which was the basis for Hunter Improvement Society This is taken from the frontispiece of The History of The HIS by Pamela Macgregor-Morris.
The Hunters' Improvement & National Light Horse Breeding Society was founded in 1885, at a time when England was being flooded with imported horses. The objects of the Society was five-fold.
First to improve and encourage the breeding of horses for hunting, riding, driving and military purposes.
Second to award premiums at Spring shows to owners of Thoroughbred stallions and then secure for breeders the services of sound horses at reasonable service fees. Third to establish winning records and to encourage other societies to offer prizes for mares and youngstock at their shows. Fourth to attract public attention to a subject so important to the prosperity of the nation and to spread knowledge of the priciples upon which better horses might be bred. And finally, as the supply of good sizeable horses was as yet altogether unequal to the demand, to breed better horses and thereby curtail the enormous increase in the import of horses that had been witnessed in the last 20 years.
Anything that is of mixed breeding is technically a type surely? No one should feel they cant use an ungraded stallion, after all most people hardly ever use a graded mare. I just dont think its an excuse to say it suits the mare because there will always be a graded stallion that does. What is a better argument is that he has offspring doing the job you want from yours. That proves the stallion is upto the task of getting good competition stock. At the end of the day it is the choice of the mare owner.

Thank you for your approval of my choice of stallion; he does indeed fulfil those credentials handsomely having produced numerous Grade A showjumpers and Advanced eventers let alone the show horses and first class hunters he has produced too. As I said before, his stock are his proof of merit, I'm more than happy with my choice

 

[Simsar]

PMSL! Spot on.

 

[Simsar]

Magic please enlighten us to what you have bred to date??

 

[jamesmead]

Don't expect every graded stallion to suit every mare, do your homework thoroughly first so you can make an informed decision to best suit your mare - There are enough graded stallions available, thanks also to AI that there is NEVER an issue in finding a graded stallion to suit the mare.

So if I want to breed a horse to race on the flat, or to run at Cheltenham and actually be competitive, which graded stallion do you suggest I use?

I'm afraid there is ALWAYS an issue in finding the BEST stallion for the mare; limiting yourself to just the graded ones reduces your choices considerably.

Magic, your Kitemark analogy is important, because it is SO incorrect.

Kitemarked goods are uniform in type, manufactured, and designed for a specific purpose; a fully representitive selection are tested to destruction in tests simulating their use and misuse in real life. The only thing that comes remotely close to this in the horse world that I can think of, is the testing of young horses (which are tested to the limit of their physical ability; any destruction is incidental) on the racecourse; even this doesn't "kitemark" their sires; there's no guarantee that the "right " genes will be passed on or that they will suit the mares used.

With sportshorses there are too many variables for a grading to be compared to a kitemark. There is no way of knowing how the newly graded stallion would stand up to use; to competing, and absolutely no guarantee how his unborn offspring will perform.

The equivalent in kitemarking terms would be to approve, say, a fridge, based on a visual inspection of a totally different fridge which was going to be dismantled and rebuilt using an undecided half (or even 40%?!) of the components coupled with another lot of components over which the manufacturers had no control... Would you accept this as a guarantee of quality?

If you think a grading offers a guarantee, think again; it offers a suggestion, an opinion, nothing more.