Stallion suggestions

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magic104

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Hi, noticed that the stallion suggestion are varied though plenty get missed. When we were at Addington for the dressage part of the demo included an Andalusian stallion. It would appear that some of the WB studs are using them, yet I dont think I have ever seen one recommended on this forum when people have asked about dressage stallions. Is it because there are not enough of them in the higher levels? Just wondered because I worked with someone back in mid 80's who imported a Lusitano mare & they raved about this breed. The trainablility of them the movement & temperments. So why do they appear to be overlooked? I believe, though I may be wrong (not for the 1st time), that PB's have competed at eventing (I should think they have the stamina for this) & show jumping.
http://www.bapsh.co.uk/breeding/stallionlist.htm

AA's dont get much of a mention either, yet I have known some cracking all rounders. There is a huge selection, especially owned by members of this forum, but there are breeds which do appear to be missed. So is there a reason why for instance when someone asks for a recommended dressage stallion an Andalusian is not mentioned? Perhaps an Andalusian expert has the answer, or someone with more knowledge on conformation, horse genetics? Thanks
 
The Andalusian IMO is a tough one. It SHOULD be one of the first horses mentioned when discussing dressage (along with the Lipizanner) however in dressage I feel that because they have a different way of moving to the 'traditionally' bred Dressage WB's and as such do not seem to get the marks that they should....
 
Interesting though that at the Addington demo they showed us one (if not the only) stallion they were using to improve on the WB. I am sure it was to help with the trainability of the horses, which I thought was what WB's were all about! I just wonder why we narrow our options on what breeds to use for certain disciplines. There are obvious reasons, but when you are mixing & matching (which is what a WB is) why do we not appear to look at other breeds?
 
I am by no means an expert on the Iberian breeds, and I am sure I will be corrected, but.... In my experience yes they do have fantastic temperaments in general, and a great aptitude for the piaffe and the lateral work, but the basic paces are not generally what we look for in a dressage horse, whilst they are great at collection, most of them don't show a great extension (there are of course exceptions!) I have noticed that the canter in general is not strong, the trot tends to have a fair bit of knee action, and there is a tendency for them to work tight in the neck.
That said, there are some excellent specimens out there, and they have got some andalucian/WB crosses bred at Hof Kasselmann - one of which they brought to the BD Gala evening last year - I wasn't blown away though, but that was only one example.
Will be interested to hear others' opinions!
 
Interesting question! I suppose that it is market driven though, if you want to sell your potential dressage foal it's easier when it is from an instantly recognisable dressage line . Maybe the Baroque breeds need better marketing.
 
A dressage judge once told me that because of their different way of going they would not get the marks in the lower classes or in youngstock classes. But they really come into their own in the higher classes.
 
If you try to ride them like a warmblood then yes, they come short and tight in theneck and you ruin the basic paces. Thats where so many people here go wrong.

If they're ridden as they should be then they definitely hold their own against WBs at national level but not international level. Yet!
I prefer the lusitanos personally but there are some really nice andys around too.
 
prefer the lusitanos personally but there are some really nice andys around too.

This is not confined to the Andys or any breed, the Andy is just an example. Please feel free to input on any breed, I am interested to know why certain breeds/stallions get more of a mention for certain disciplines then others. Obviously if they are excelling then it answers the question. But we just seem to limit ourselves, & someone mentioning the gene pool, promoted me thinking (not always such a good idea!!). So please this is open to all & sundry & all disciplines.
 
At the YH champs at Addington last year (I think) Christoph Hess showed a Andalusian x Wesfalian that had been bred at Warendorf. It was an interesting horse. It had the size and body shape of a warmblood with a longer neck than a typical andy. It also had the round front leg/knee action of an Andy but with the cadence and swing of a warmblood. But - part of me felt that it was a nice horse but not even close to some of the other Warendorf 4 and 5 yr olds that they showed. But I would imagine it would have super talent for the collected work and it will be interesting to see how such cross breeds progress through the higher grades.
 
With regard to my 'tight in the neck' comment - my experience has mostly been of horses that have come straight from spain/portugal - I think it is their method of training that often creates such tension in the horse, and actually the lusitano that we have at work has been trained more like a warmblood than an iberian, and so does not have the short neck problem any more, unless she gets tense!
 
i think there are some lovely examples of purebreds but am unsure of how well they cross onto other breeds.
all of the cross breds i have seen, have looked very much 6 of one, half a dozen of the other and have not blended particularly well (i have seen about 6 or 7 crosses).

there is also the fact that many riders of these horses have themselves stated that they feel judges do not understand the breed and movement enough to judge them fairly alongside 'typical' dressage horses.
whilst this has obviously got to change, i would be waiting for them to become more prolific before putting my mare to an Andy/Lippizaner etc.

i do not think it is fair to expect the one foal a year breeders to be the ones to push this cross through- if you are looking to sell i do not think you will have the same market as a pure warmblood or tb x warmblood because people will be wary until there are more (good) examples around.
 
I do admire a good Andy. but like any breed you get a good examples and bad.
These horses can compete very well in sport, As far as 'dressage' goes, they are able to show their wonderful abilities best in 'classical dressage' rather than 'competition dressage'. But it truly is down to training and rider - again as with any breed.

They do just fine in sport already, many showing their superiority in extreme combined driving competitions. Some of the best are Lusitanos. John Whittaker took a famous Lusitano, Novilheiro, to the top in Grand Prix jumping, after the horse excelled in Grand Prix dressage competitions. These horses truly are "well rounded."

I often write for judges and any score for any movement can be subjective regardless of breed but do agree that for Andy's they will find collection/lateral work easier than extension. Every horse has movements they are better at or take less training then other movements. generally thou you can actually excel when performing the tests accurately.

With regards to crosses - well why not as long as good breeding (as with any breed cross) is taken into account. for example, confirmation improving from the mare etc etc
 
Was there not an andalusian (or similar) or partbred at the 2008 bejing olympics in dressage, it wasn't my cup of tea in looks or even movement but I have to admit that it was fantastic in the piaffe and collection etc, it did pretty well overall, in the same class as lancet was it not?? A speckly looking grey/white horse, (with both pink and black skin) My friend did breed partbreds and has now given up and gone to a wb, apparently its' temperament is easier!!!
 
Speaking of the Olympic's. I think it was Sydney Olympics there was a spanish rider riding an andalusian stallion which took my breath away. I remember that the days after the dressage to music it kept getting requested to be reshown. I would love to see it again!!

I was off studying at the time so I got to see the Olympics.
 
I think the iberian breeds are perfectly suited for what they are bred for which is dressage and carrying a rider. I have to say am not a fan of modern dressage as nearly all the horses are on the forehand - yes they have a very fancy looking extended trot but at the cost of being able to collect themselves properly to carry a riders weight on their quarters - which is really the whole point of dressage so they can have a free forehand.
I think nowadays people are going for these big flashy moving horses as they have no idea of how a horse should be carrying a rider - the fashion now seems to be for long backed horses with pretty poor backends - there are the odd few warmbloods I have seen that are short backed but the riders seem to be hauling their heads in and not engaging the quarters - even when they are collected they are no where near what an iberian type can do and when you drop a plumb line on them they are still on the forehand.
I think fashion has a lot to answer for - everyone wants a warmblood or their breed to be like a warmblood to be able to 'keep up' with them - I breed friesians and am actually giving up this year as am fed up with where the breed is going and the horrendously high levels of genetic defects - and they are being bred more and more to look like sport horses. They are andalusian based and so should have a nice square outline and be compact, they are now looking for the opposite and place the high stepping trot ability far above anything else - all for fashion!

The spanish breeds are becoming harder and harder to find as they were which is nice compact powerful horses - they are being bred taller and taller to look like warmbloods - it is a real shame!
If you can find a nice example of any of the baroque breeds to cross with others then the crosses are great and where people are actually using their full potential they are excelling - but it is picking the right mare and the right stallion or it can all go pear shaped! I think there are alot of people crossing any old iberian/friesian etc with any old mare expecting wonders and these are the results that people see and judge. We get alot of people wanting to use our friesian stallion on mares just because the stallion looks cool and they have no idea what they are wanting other than a piece of a beautiful horse - 9 times out of 10 the mares are totally unsuitable - we are very picky and do turn alot of people away so the crosses that do get produced are hopefully useful - but for a small breeder it is hard getting the right mares - I am probably one of the few stallion owners that does turn away mares but I can see why Britains breeding program has gone down the tubes as most will cover anything and everything just to make money!! I also think judges have alot to answer for too as they seem to be totally biased towards the fashion.
I think everyone is also in such a rush today they want instant results and don't want to spend 10 yrs getting a horse to a high level - they want them dong everything in a flashy way as fast as poss.

Here is an example of a friesian x TB gelding - he is just 2 and 16Hh - so has alot of growing to do, but you can see if got right I think the mix does work and he will be a very useful sort of horse having a nice action/speed and sweet nature, also the last pic in my signature is of our 3 yr old friesian x TB stallion. It's a shame we are giving up as I was dying to add andalusian/lusitano blood back to the friesian to get better horses and then cross those back to a TB to refine them a bit but keep the power but a touch more speed - so if anyone has a cracking example of an iberian/andi mare they want to cross to a TB x Friesian stallion to get a really fancy horse then we may consider an outside live covering or collect tadpoles from our stallion in the future!!!!
DSC_0268.jpg
 
blackhorses it is your sort of input I was hoping this thread would produce. I have been interested in peoples thoughts on stallions for members asking what should I use. There is a good choice but very still limited in the breeds suggested. I think a lot like the CB etc are forgotten. Just because the high level end of the sports may dictate that we need a lighter horse does not mean the biggest market the lesuire rider does. Sorry to say but there are a lot of heavier riders out there looking rather heavier on their LW mounts!!

Sometimes you have to be brave & experiment. Matt Ryan has shown that it can work & it would be interesting to know just how many offspring Animoso VII had & how many went off eventing, SJ'g etc, because % wise I bet it beats some of these more popular breeds churning out 100's of offspring a year. Could be wrong not had time to investigate.
 
Although Novilheiro was a registerd Lusitano, if you look at his pedigree, his sire was Firme who was almost totally PRE (Andalusian).
Nearly all breeds are being bred to imitate the Warmbloods now, which is ridiculous, as we need the old breeds to improve the Warmbloods! I can't understand why people are disparaging about Andalusians, as I think that they'll find there own horses carry a significant amount of Spanish blood, including Warmbloods and Thoroughbreds!
I'll get off my soapbox now.
 
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