'stamping' or 'cloning' - what do you think? (cute foal pics!)

[htobago]

A friend of mine said recently, looking at photos of my Arab stallion's first foal-crop: "Kate, you should explain to Tobago that a good stallion is supposed to 'stamp' his stock, not 'clone' them!" LOL!

OK, so here is Tobago:

Now what do you think - are his babies 'stamped' or 'cloned':

Here's a pure-bred colt out of MB Fantasiaa (Krimson Fame x DA Fiestaa):

And a pure-bred filly out of DA Fiestaa (Echo Magnificoo x Cheyanne):

And another pure-bred colt, out of Rose Aboud (Aboud x Rose Bandola):

And another pure-bred filly, out of Savhanna (Bajazeth x Szapora]):

And another pure-bred colt, out of Sahibaa (Bey Shy x Ibn Galal IV):

Even the part-breds look like him: filly out of bay TB x ID mare Ayemkay Evin Star (Landstar x Highland Pride):

What's almost spooky is that they all have his high-energy, 'alpha' personality as well, even the ones from very quiet, placid mares.

So what do you think - is he just 'stamping' his stock, like a good stally, or does he have some sinister ambition to achieve world domination with herds of Tobago-clones!

 

[amandathepanda]

When Tobago is so gorgeous, would it be a problem if there were suddenly herds of Tobago clones?! The foals are all gorgeous (although I do have a big weakness for arab babies anyway) but Tobago really is stunning. You can definitely see the foalies are all their daddy's babies!

As a matter of interest, how tall is Tobago & what is his fee? (thinking maybe next year

)

 

[the watcher]

I think the only way you would be able to tell whether he is stamping or cloning would be to look at the outcome of crossing with something quite different - and then see how strong his influence is - which would be an interesting experiment.

 

[htobago]

Whoops - sorry, I meant to post this in the 'Breeding' section but put it here by mistake!

Never mind - I suppose it doesn't really matter. It was only for a giggle anyway!

Panda what a sweet thing to say - thank you! Some of the foal pics are not very good - don't do them justice - but I thought it might be amusing to see them all together.

Tobago is about 15.1/15.2 - will PM you!

 

[RedVendetta]

That first foal in the pics is absolutely gorgeous! They do all look like him, do you think they will still look like him when they;re older?

 

[htobago]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the only way you would be able to tell whether he is stamping or cloning would be to look at the outcome of crossing with something quite different - and then see how strong his influence is - which would be an interesting experiment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point! I only asked the question for a laugh, really - just because I've been getting a lot of nice comments about how he is stamping his stock, and also lot of jokes about how one can't tell his babies apart!

The last filly on there is from a big, bay TB x ID mare, who looks nothing remotely like Tobago, and yet the foal is still very Tobago-ish!

But there is also a great tank of a WB mare due to him - should be an even better test LOL!

 

[AmyMay]

I'm speechless. They are all just sooooooo beautiful.

But stamping if you must have an answer!

 

[htobago]

[ QUOTE ]
That first foal in the pics is absolutely gorgeous! They do all look like him, do you think they will still look like him when they;re older?

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting question! In a way I suppose they might even look MORE like him as they get older - as foals are clearly going to look a bit different from a grown-up horse?

Having said that, a young visitor at Cliveden recently pointed at Tobago and said and "Oh, look - he has a foal-face! Why does this horse have a head like a foal?!" When I asked what she meant, she said that his head was really small, with a big forehead and tiny nose, like a foal.

And he is still wearing the same show-bridle he had as a yearling........so maybe he's not a proper grown-up after all LOL!

Anyway - I love the foal in that first pic as well - he's such a character! He keeps jumping out of his field and galloping off exploring all by himself - he even did this on his very first day outside!!

 

[Donkeymad]

I have always loved arabs and Tobago, and all his off spring are absolutely gorgeous. Friend's arab mare foaled last week, she's a beauty. All I know though is that mare and stallion are both high Crabbet lineages.

 

[spitchwick]

But there is also a great tank of a WB mare due to him - should be an even better test LOL!

[/ QUOTE ]

I know of an even more interesting test comimg up in July

 

[Shilasdair]

Arabs are very nice creatures; I've always got on well with 'Anglo-Arabs' but why do they have to be so small?
Pretty foalies, though.
Forgive my ignorance if everyone already knows this - but what work does Tobago do (outside stud season - it's obvious what he's doing during it

)?
S

 

[htobago]

[ QUOTE ]


But there is also a great tank of a WB mare due to him - should be an even better test LOL!

[/ QUOTE ]

I know of an even more interesting test comimg up in July

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL but that one is a secret....until the surprise announcement on here in July!!

 

[htobago]

[ QUOTE ]
Arabs are very nice creatures; I've always got on well with 'Anglo-Arabs' but why do they have to be so small?
Pretty foalies, though.
Forgive my ignorance if everyone already knows this - but what work does Tobago do (outside stud season - it's obvious what he's doing during it

)?
S

[/ QUOTE ]

Some Anglos can be quite big, and make v good sport horses - WFP is eventing a lovely Anglo Arab stallion called All That Jazz...

Pure-bred Arabs are not usually much over 15.2, though.

Tobago is only just 4 years old, and until now has just been an in-hand show horse - basically prancing around on the end of a string looking pretty (to be fair, he does this to international-champion standards - but one still wouldn't call it 'work' LOL)!

He is being backed and started under saddle this year. This keeps getting interrupted by stud duties (he's one of the most popular Arab stallions in the UK, so he's very busy!), and of course the mares have to take priority. But we hope to have him out under saddle this winter.

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Arabs are very nice creatures; I've always got on well with 'Anglo-Arabs' but why do they have to be so small?
Pretty foalies, though.
Forgive my ignorance if everyone already knows this - but what work does Tobago do (outside stud season - it's obvious what he's doing during it

)?
S

[/ QUOTE ]

Some Anglos can be quite big, and make v good sport horses - WFP is eventing a lovely Anglo Arab stallion called All That Jazz...

Pure-bred Arabs are not usually much over 15.2, though.

Tobago is only just 4 years old, and until now has just been an in-hand show horse - basically prancing around on the end of a string looking pretty (to be fair, he does this to international-champion standards - but one still wouldn't call it 'work' LOL)!

He is being backed and started under saddle this year. This keeps getting interrupted by stud duties (he's one of the most popular Arab stallions in the UK, so he's very busy!), and of course the mares have to take priority. But we hope to have him out under saddle this winter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. I'd forgotten he was so young. He's very handsome - as I said, I like Arabs very much, and have always got on well with them...but I'm too tall for them

I would have thought there were a lot of contenders for the 'Prancing Around' championships.

What sort of discipline, if any in particular, will you do with him when he's in full ridden work (if all the ladies give him time off ?

S

 

[minkymoo]

Aren't they gorgeous! I would definitely say 'cloning'. However, that is certainly not a bad thing! They all look like little sextuplets!

Shilasdair, my horse is an Anglo Arab and he is 16.3. They tend to be alot bigger than Arabs as I feel that I am too tall for anything 15.1 or less. He only look 'Araby' when he is gawking out on a hack, cantering or really excited. Otherwise he look like an TB. 2 for the price of 1!

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
Aren't they gorgeous! I would definitely say 'cloning'. However, that is certainly not a bad thing! They all look like little sextuplets!

Shilasdair, my horse is an Anglo Arab and he is 16.3. They tend to be alot bigger than Arabs as I feel that I am too tall for anything 15.1 or less. He only look 'Araby' when he is gawking out on a hack, cantering or really excited. Otherwise he look like an TB. 2 for the price of 1!

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm surprised - all the Anglo's I've met have been around 15.2hh and quite lightweight.
And is 'gawking' a recognised equine gait?

Any chance of a picture of him (I'm just curious).
S

 

[*hic*]

Here you go 15.2 Anglo - gratuitous photo because she is rather nice and I wanted Kate to see another shot of her. This is her first time out on an XC course. Slightly light of bone but fantastic body!

She's going to event we hope (but would do pure dressage) unless something goes wrong in which case we hope she might have her own Tobago-baby. She's already come third in her first ODE at 2'9" (Gt Witchingham)

 

[Shilasdair]

She's completely different to what I expected...very nice type.
Bit disappointed in the lack of a 'gawking' demonstration though

She'd have nice Tobago babies...but I'll bet they'd be grey, thus breaking his chestnut 'clone' claim

S

 

[htobago]

Wow - jemina, she's super - that's even better than the other photo I've seen of her! Do you have any more?

She certainly looks quite Araby in this one!

I'd love for her to have a Tobago-baby, of course, but I hope her eventing career works out - she sounds very talented. How old is she?

Shilasdair - Tobago has actually had 2 bay foals as well as all those identikit chestnuts, but I don't have any photos of them here. They still look like him - only bay. What breed(s) do you have?

 

[htobago]

[ QUOTE ]


What sort of discipline, if any in particular, will you do with him when he's in full ridden work (if all the ladies give him time off ?

S

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry Shil - I forgot to answer this bit. I think probably dressage, as he has amazing movement - he's known on the Arab show circuit for his big 'Russian' trot, very elevated and powerful. There's a very good professional dressage rider who is keen to have him to bring on and compete, so we might well go for this. But we'll play it by ear and see what he's best at.

There's also one of the top 3 Arab-racehorse trainers who wants me to put Tobago in training with her for racing. But I think it might make him too hyper, and he's quite fizzy enough already, so I said no. Last year, she watched him zooming around loose in the sand-school for 5 minutes and immediately booked one of her best racing mares to him for this season.

Oh - and in an article in one of the big Arab magazines recently another racing breeder singled Tobago out as a 'show sire who could also sire racehorses'! So perhaps he will have some racehorse babies, even if he doesn't race himself.

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]

Sorry Shil - I forgot to answer this bit. I think probably dressage, as he has amazing movement - he's known on the Arab show circuit for his big 'Russian' trot, very elevated and powerful. There's a very good professional dressage rider who is keen to have him to bring on and compete, so we might well go for this. But we'll play it by ear and see what he's best at.
There's also one of the top 3 Arab-racehorse trainers who wants me to put Tobago in training with her for racing. But I think it might make him too hyper, and he's quite fizzy enough already, so I said no. Last year, she watched him zooming around loose in the sand-school for 5 minutes and immediately booked one of her best racing mares to him for this season.
Oh - and in an article in one of the big Arab magazines recently another racing breeder singled Tobago out as a 'show sire who could also sire racehorses'! So perhaps he will have some racehorse babies, even if he doesn't race himself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for answering - but could you explain to me what a 'Russian' trot is - I know nothing much about Arabs (apart from the one book I read by Sherbatov and Stroganov or something

).
My three are a bit of a mix - regd TB, Shire x TB, and 3/4 TB x 1/4 Bavarian...no Arab in there at all

S

 

[minkymoo]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm surprised - all the Anglo's I've met have been around 15.2hh and quite lightweight.
And is 'gawking' a recognised equine gait?

Any chance of a picture of him (I'm just curious).
S

[/ QUOTE ]

Gawking is officially a recognised K trait!!

Oh go on then! here are a few pics! The top ones are the most recent & the last one is is about a fortnight after I got him, so I know he looks a bit ...well... rubbish! I would like to emphasize that he has filled out and is much more shiny!!

For you shils, the 3rd one is him having a bit of a gawk at the photographer!!

 

[htobago]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Sorry Shil - I forgot to answer this bit. I think probably dressage, as he has amazing movement - he's known on the Arab show circuit for his big 'Russian' trot, very elevated and powerful. There's a very good professional dressage rider who is keen to have him to bring on and compete, so we might well go for this. But we'll play it by ear and see what he's best at.
There's also one of the top 3 Arab-racehorse trainers who wants me to put Tobago in training with her for racing. But I think it might make him too hyper, and he's quite fizzy enough already, so I said no. Last year, she watched him zooming around loose in the sand-school for 5 minutes and immediately booked one of her best racing mares to him for this season.
Oh - and in an article in one of the big Arab magazines recently another racing breeder singled Tobago out as a 'show sire who could also sire racehorses'! So perhaps he will have some racehorse babies, even if he doesn't race himself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for answering - but could you explain to me what a 'Russian' trot is - I know nothing much about Arabs (apart from the one book I read by Sherbatov and Stroganov or something

).
My three are a bit of a mix - regd TB, Shire x TB, and 3/4 TB x 1/4 Bavarian...no Arab in there at all

S

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry - I should have explained (or perhaps not used obscure Araby jargon in the first place!

)! The Russians have for generations bred Arabs with particularly spectacular movement - the 'Russian trot' is v powerful and elevated, like the horse is on springs! Tobago is of mainly Russian bloodlines, and his 'show trot' is amazing - he regularly scores 20/20 for movement. I'm especially pleased that he seems to be passing this on to all his babies!

But of course I do realize there is much more to success in dressage than just good movement - and it remains to be seen whether he will be any good at this discipline!

What is your Shire x TB like? I saw a pic of a lovely example of this cross, doing dressage, the other day...

 

[htobago]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh go on then! here are a few pics! The top ones are the most recent & the last one is is about a fortnight after I got him, so I know he looks a bit ...well... rubbish! I would like to emphasize that he has filled out and is much more shiny!!

For you shils, the 3rd one is him having a bit of a gawk at the photographer!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow! minkymoo he is gorgeous! And he's come on a lot in a very short time - he's really filled out and looks in superb condition - a credit to you.

He looks great fun as well.

 

[minkymoo]

Oh stop it!

How kind of you htobago, we are getting on really well and I have started jumping him too. In fact we have a fair few shows lined up this summer. Bit of dressage, maybe a bit of showing and possibly even some jumping!

Now however I wish he was a girl so we could have one of htobago's babies. Guess I had better start saving then...

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]

Sorry - I should have explained (or perhaps not used obscure Araby jargon in the first place!

)! The Russians have for generations bred Arabs with particularly spectacular movement - the 'Russian trot' is v powerful and elevated, like the horse is on springs! Tobago is of mainly Russian bloodlines, and his 'show trot' is amazing - he regularly scores 20/20 for movement. I'm especially pleased that he seems to be passing this on to all his babies!

But of course I do realize there is much more to success in dressage than just good movement - and it remains to be seen whether he will be any good at this discipline!

What is your Shire x TB like? I saw a pic of a lovely example of this cross, doing dressage, the other day...

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, I see now...thanks for the explanation. I'd quite like to go to an Arab show - but it seems quite a closed world

Are there any fairly accessible ones in the South West way...that an 'outsider' to the Arab breeder world could go to?
My Shire x TB is big (16.3ish at front, much taller at bum), black, and has spiral hair. I hope to do dressage with her, and maybe a bit of everything else - but she's only 3yo really...and has teething troubles at the moment so isn't broken.
Not a suitable lady for Htobago, though!
S

 

[htobago]

Shils I'm not sure you would like Arab shows!! There's a lot that even I hate about the hyped-up way many Arabs are shown these days, especially on the European/international circuit.

But there are some nice shows in the UK - you've just missed the big Wales & West AHS show (actually an international show but nicer than most, and Tobago was reserve champ there as a yearling). I'll see if I can find out about others in your area.

Golly, your Shire x TB sounds like she will be seriously huge when she finishes growing! Are the other two a similar size?

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
Shils I'm not sure you would like Arab shows!! There's a lot that even I hate about the hyped-up way many Arabs are shown these days, especially on the European/international circuit.
<font color="blue">I'll try anything once - they can't be any more hyped than the Morgan shows I've happened to see at my old job (much whooping and cheering - very un-British)

</font>
But there are some nice shows in the UK - you've just missed the big Wales &amp; West AHS show (actually an international show but nicer than most, and Tobago was reserve champ there as a yearling). I'll see if I can find out about others in your area.
<font color="blue"> Thanks! </font>
Golly, your Shire x TB sounds like she will be seriously huge when she finishes growing! Are the other two a similar size?

[/ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue"> I've tried my best to stunt her growth...but failed

My TB is 16hh, my Bavarian x will be about 16hh to 16.1hh, so relatively normal. Maybe the clue was the word 'Shire' with her - although her breeder told me she'd just make 16hh only....I don't quite know how he worked this out as dam was 17.2hh and sire 15.2hh....

S

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