standing martingale vs running

[GSD Woman]

The jumping pony I rode when I was (a lot) younger was talented but had a tendency to stick his ears up your nose and hit warp speed. He was jumped in a standing martingale. I've stuck them on a few other horses who liked to lift their head and be rude - but I know from comments at the time that people think they look harsher than a running martingale so maybe that's why they aren't used.

That could be it. I do wish that people who don't know what they are talking about would educate themselves. Many tools are perceived as cruel or harsh but aren't if used properly. I find standing martingales might actually be less severe than running. After all, running act directly on the mouth and if too short are constant pressure on the bars. Standing martingales if use incorrectly at least don't do that.

 

[little_critter]

I use one now. All the babies wore a standing martingale out hacking until they were established and my cob who likes to stick her ears in my eye when she gets silly is ridden in it all the time. Running martingales are the work of the devil if not fitted correctly and having seen a dear friend have his pelvis smashed into many pieces after a horse hooked a tooth on a running martingale and went up and over backwards, I am not a fan of them.

You don't see them now for the simple reason that everyone is fixated in the noseband craze of grackles fastened under the eye socket, crank nosebands and don't get me started on those ugly multi spider type things. Insult to a good horse to be plastered in dozens of straps.

I had a similar experience once. I was already having a bad day, I’d fallen off and broken my wrist. I was sitting on the grass waiting for someone to take me to a&e.
The group I was with were still riding (well away from me) and walked over to me to check how I was. One horse got his running martingale hooked in his mouth and panicked, doing a speedy reverse…….straight towards me sitting on the grass.
Having only 1 working arm I wasn’t able to get up quickly in the normal way so did an impressive commando roll onto my feet. We all learned a lesson that day.

 

[cauda equina]

My old boy got a tooth caught in his running martingale too
He managed to free himself but we had a few very scary moments until he did

 

[Cortez]

That could be it. I do wish that people who don't know what they are talking about would educate themselves. Many tools are perceived as cruel or harsh but aren't if used properly. I find standing martingales might actually be less severe than running. After all, running act directly on the mouth and if too short are constant pressure on the bars. Standing martingales if use incorrectly at least don't do that.

There is no “might” about it, running martingales are infinitely more negatively affective than standing martingales. The standing martingale is passive until the horse’s action brings it into play, the running martingale can be used by the rider to apply force to the horse’s mouth, often unwittingly.

 

[Fransurrey]

.... it will only come into effect if things go so badly wrong. ... It doesn't need to be a lever whatsoever, I use it as a neck strap 1st and as an 'oh shit' piece of equipment 2nd.
A correctly fitted standing would do just as well, but I dont have one to fit B in my spares (not one that's serviceable).

This is why I have a running. It was for a young horse who for the most part was a plod, but when he did get excited on fun rides, he went into giraffe mode. That's the only time it came into effect. Surely bar the weight of the rings on the reins, it shouldn't do anything unless the horse raises it's head above the wither? Mine only goes on for fun rides or if he goes through a spooky phase in winter (only used it for about a week this season).

I remember being told not to hack in a standing, because it's fixed and if the horse falls, it affects the horse's ability to regain balance. I know a few people who do with no problems, though. Never used one myself and wouldn't like to, because my hacking is rather off piste!

 

[Fransurrey]

It's possible to use a running martingale as a standing martingale. Put the leather bits back through the rings on the running martso it creates a loop. Then put your noseband through the loop.

I never knew that!

 

[ecb89]

I have always used a running martingale on my horse, partly for the neck strap and partly as he likes to stick his head in the air.
I have recently bought a breastplate and I’m tempted to take off the martingale straps/strings(?) and see if it makes a difference. It’s the Rambo breastplate so I’ve still got something to grab if needed

 

[MotherOfChickens]

As am currently riding in hunter noseband which is really only on for (my) aesthetics, I completely agree!?

For jumping B, I have a running martingale on then, but a few sj coaches have laughed (how blooming dare they!) at the fit...... it will only come into effect if things go so badly wrong. Its correctly fitted imho, exactly as taught in the 70s. It doesn't need to be a lever whatsoever, I use it as a neck strap 1st and as an 'oh shit' piece of equipment 2nd.
A correctly fitted standing would do just as well, but I dont have one to fit B in my spares (not one that's serviceable).

yes this, the vast majority of running martingales are fitted incorrectly and I do think many of the attachments to breastplates are too short. I use one on the Fell for hacking, as previous to me had developed a rude habit of chucking his nose in the air and bogging off. He came to me in a pelham which he would hardly move in-I tried him in a kimblewick and same: anything with poll pressure stops him but also stops him from moving at all. Just walking, trotting and cantering etc it doesnt come into play.

 

[Cortez]

This is why I have a running. It was for a young horse who for the most part was a plod, but when he did get excited on fun rides, he went into giraffe mode. That's the only time it came into effect. Surely bar the weight of the rings on the reins, it shouldn't do anything unless the horse raises it's head above the wither? Mine only goes on for fun rides or if he goes through a spooky phase in winter (only used it for about a week this season).

I remember being told not to hack in a standing, because it's fixed and if the horse falls, it affects the horse's ability to regain balance. I know a few people who do with no problems, though. Never used one myself and wouldn't like to, because my hacking is rather off piste!

Even the weight of the rings is enough to interfere with the feel to the horse's mouth. I have seen a couple of horses out hunting with standing martingales fall and get up again with no problem whatsoever, I've also seen horses get tangled up in their running martingales with horrible consequences for their mouths. Unfortunately a running martingale seems to be standard issue here, with perhaps the majority having one on from day one. I have talked to multiple owners who don't even know why the horse has one, nor what it is for. I wonder why people don't experiment a bit and try both (or none) if they have a problem?

 

[Kaylum]

We had a guy who went hunting (you know the type can't ride but goes anyway) and the groom forgot to put the running martingale on. Bearing in mind it had every other gadget possible. They were waiting for him to return and were getting very anxious. Anyway when he returned he said it was the best day he had had and the horse was so well behaved. The groom mentioned about the martingale and he said he hadn't even noticed.

 

[scruffyponies]

Who was it that said 'standing martingale is for the horse, running martingale is for the rider'.

I have both in the tackroom, but have never had cause to use the runner.
The standing martingale had a fairly brief but very useful outing with a rearing napper a few years ago. It gave him an instant check as he threw himself up, helping the rider to bring him down and round. He was soon over himself and hacking out nicely.

 

[spacefaer]

We hunt virtually every horse in a stander, and ride every young horse in one. Stops them chucking their head up and beyond the point of no control.
I hate running marts - I hate the feeling of something else holding my rein.
I've always felt that people fitted a flash noseband and a running martingale with very little thought for their need or effect.

 

[Leandy]

Martingale rein stops are to prevent the horse getting his mouth/teeth/rein billet hooked up on the running martingale loops. Martingale stops on join between the neckstrap and the martingale strap stop the martingale strap hanging too low and the horse getting a foot caught - especially where the martingale is fitted looser. Both are necessary safety equipment.

 

[flat3]

I've found this thread really interesting. I always ride in a running, a habit firmed several years ago my instructor - a very experienced dressage rider and eventer - said 'why wouldn't you - it doesn't do anything until you need it and then you'll be glad it's there'.

 

[spacefaer]

I've found this thread really interesting. I always ride in a running, a habit firmed several years ago my instructor - a very experienced dressage rider and eventer - said 'why wouldn't you - it doesn't do anything until you need it and then you'll be glad it's there'.

Try riding without it - the contact is significantly less restrictive - even the weight of the rings on the reins make a difference.

 

[flat3]

Try riding without it - the contact is significantly less restrictive - even the weight of the rings on the reins make a difference.

I never noticed it not being there when competing, but there is a lot going on in those circumstances! I should try it, though it's a bit of a comfort blanket too I guess - be weird without it ?

 

[Alwaysmoretoknow]

As I understand it most bits only work correctly/in they way were designed to if the angle of the rein to the cheek pieces is at least 90 degrees so the point of a correctly fitted running martingale is to maintain this open angle so that the rider can still effectively use their (hopefully sympathetic) rein aids to ask the horse to lower its head. Otherwise it should not interfere with the horses way of going.

 

[Cortez]

As I understand it most bits only work correctly/in they way were designed to if the angle of the rein to the cheek pieces is at least 90 degrees so the point of a correctly fitted running martingale is to maintain this open angle so that the rider can still effectively use their (hopefully sympathetic) rein aids to ask the horse to lower its head. Otherwise it should not interfere with the horses way of going.

Who on earth told you that? Complete and utter nonsense. Firstly you CANNOT lower a horse's head with the reins, and as for the rest, I am actually speechless.....

 

[clinkerbuilt]

I never noticed it not being there when competing, but there is a lot going on in those circumstances! I should try it, though it's a bit of a comfort blanket too I guess - be weird without it ?

following this discussion with interest, having had experience years ago with mainly standing (if any, quite rarely). Now, I ride in one school where every horse is fitted with a running, and one school where no horse is. One difference between these two very diverse groups of animals I have noticed (or imagined, but before I thought about the martingale impact) is feel of mouth and head. Much lighter, if more mobile, in all so far without the running ms.

 

[Alwaysmoretoknow]

Wow - was not expecting quite such a dramatically emphatic response. In answer to your question of 'who told me that' I would quote one of the most highly regarded breeders and trainers of BSH, training with international 4* eventers, 40+ years of experience, BHS qualifications and specialist training in fitting bits.
Surely in order to ask a horse to soften its jaw, lower its head and work in a correct, bio-mechanically efficient way you gently 'feel' the rein, create flexion and bend and encourage it to work forward in a soft, balanced outline.
If a horse puts its head above the 'angle of control' than any bit you are using will only act on the corners of the mouth and not the bars of the mouth (interdental space) which is where they are designed to act.
I would be very interested to hear what you see is so incorrect in my previous post.

 

[spacefaer]

Wow - was not expecting quite such a dramatically emphatic response. In answer to your question of 'who told me that' I would quote one of the most highly regarded breeders and trainers of BSH, training with international 4* eventers, 40+ years of experience, BHS qualifications and specialist training in fitting bits.
Surely in order to ask a horse to soften its jaw, lower its head and work in a correct, bio-mechanically efficient way you gently 'feel' the rein, create flexion and bend and encourage it to work forward in a soft, balanced outline.
If a horse puts its head above the 'angle of control' than any bit you are using will only act on the corners of the mouth and not the bars of the mouth (interdental space) which is where they are designed to act.
I would be very interested to hear what you see is so incorrect in my previous post.

I'm with Cortez - not sure where to start except that your advisor sounds somewhat out of date.
I'm struggling with the idea thst the running martingale holds the head in the"correct" position so you can maintain an outline. And also with the thought that the martingale holds the bit at the correct angle in the mouth....

No mention of "throughness" being achieved by riding the horse forward from behind into a soft and still contact. Fiddling an outline is a tad old-fashioned.

If you want to prevent the horse putting his head above the angle of control, a standing martingale would be a much kinder option. If he is raising his head to avoid the contact, then surely an item of equipment that increases that contact is not called for?

A running martingale acts as a pulley and effectively doubles the strength of the rider's hands. I don't see how that fact fits into your advisor's theory either.

 

[Cortez]

Wow - was not expecting quite such a dramatically emphatic response. In answer to your question of 'who told me that' I would quote one of the most highly regarded breeders and trainers of BSH, training with international 4* eventers, 40+ years of experience, BHS qualifications and specialist training in fitting bits.
Surely in order to ask a horse to soften its jaw, lower its head and work in a correct, bio-mechanically efficient way you gently 'feel' the rein, create flexion and bend and encourage it to work forward in a soft, balanced outline.
If a horse puts its head above the 'angle of control' than any bit you are using will only act on the corners of the mouth and not the bars of the mouth (interdental space) which is where they are designed to act.
I would be very interested to hear what you see is so incorrect in my previous post.

Simple: legs, and seat. THAT is what puts horses on the bit, in combination with, but very much more important than, the actions of the hand and bit. The fact that your instructors are extremely old is no surprise, nor that their experience is so firmly rooted in the BHS.

 

[palo1]

Laura Collett is featured riding her eventer Moonlight Charm over some hedges in this weeks H&H magazine with a standing martingale. I use one (though I don't jump hedges) and my rather strong, hot horse absolutely prefers that to a running martingale. I find them much nicer to ride with too as you know that you can ride leg and seat to hand without the interference. We only have one horse that a martingale is useful for though thankfully. I am certain a standing martingale went slightly out of fashion because it is easier to put on a flash or grackle and running mart to achieve the desired 'mouth shut, head in place' position that takes a while to achieve through training as well as making sure your horse's head is covered in leather strappage which is rather more fashionable! The loss of decent riding schools and instructors at grass roots level has a bit to answer for imo but there are excellent trainers around still who prefer to spend time achieving a settled, confident mouth and self carriage.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

I don’t like martingales however I have always wondered the preference for a running over a standing. Standing does the job better IMO and I never jndserstood the whole ‘can’t jump in a standing’ argument. If it’s correctly fitted it doesn’t interfere.

If was to choose I’d prefer the standing attached to the noseband.

 

[spacefaer]

Not sure the standing martingale is affecting his ability to jump!

 

[cauda equina]

When I was a kid you always had a standing martingale if you used a gag, is that still the norm?

 

[spacefaer]

When I was a kid you always had a standing martingale if you used a gag, is that still the norm?

You'd hope so as a running martingale (to lower the head) teamed with a gag (to raise the head) couldn't really be considered ideal! But it seems to be a free for all in terms of tack at the moment

 

[abbijay]

I haven't generally used running martingales but years of riding in BHS stables has seen them applied in a variety of ways. One stables put them on all the horses that were used by novices as a matter of course to actually soften the impact of very unsteady hands. I have seen them converted into standing martingales on occasion and even saw one converted into a market harborough on something that was being a bit of a twit once. It was the 90s but they were run by old school horse people.
I do currently have one on the baby Clydesdale. When he wants his own way about life he has a tendency to throw his head up and to the side disengaging my contact and giving him a chance to get away from me. Now in the running martingale the contact is maintained so I remain in control however it is definitely long enough that when he isn't being a twit he doesn't know he's wearing it. I don't know if a standing martingale would work as well in this situation but more over I don't have one in elephant size in the cupboard so I decided to try this as a first move.
I think so much of the tack used is fashion. When I was a kid in the 90s pony mags seemed to bring about the rise of flashes and dutch gags. Charlotte Dujardin using drop nosebands seemed to bring about an upsurge in them. The old tack has been around for years and evolved with a purpose in mind, the use remains but we have to be careful we don't lose the knowledge on how to use and fit tack properly otherwise it becomes dangerous/cruel/obsolete. I think when it comes to standing martingales the lack of understanding of them as they become less common has probably contributed to the perception of them by many.