Standing Martingales

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atot

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Do you like them or not? Prompted by a thread further down. Chloe was in one for hacking when I went to try her, and when we got her home and hacking without it I soon found out why. She doesn't need one for hacking, but I think both of us would benefit for one showjumping, although I haven't got round to getting one, mainly as we are not doing much with her atm.

I think they are useful, and would be happy to use one if it was really needed, as long as I could fit it properly. As someone said, they are aimed at stopping the head going up past a certain point rather than keeping it down at a certain point, although I guess this would've been abused by people, which may be why many do not like them?

Thoughts on a postcard please....
Would you ever consider using one? If not, why? have you ever? etc...
 
I have, my horse didnt like it but I know of others who have used one and their horse went well. I have also heard of people sayign it is less severe than a running one coz it only comes into action when the horses head goes above the angle of control whereas a running one puts constant pressure on the rein. I have one for sale if you wanted one!
 
im wasnt a lover of them - but i have just started jumping my best horse in an elasticated one.
he gets really strong to fences - fights me - pulls his head up and we have been having silly fences.
put it on him 2 weeks ago and have now qualified for scope festival!
 
Yes I see what you are saying. And I think people see them as more severe (and I think they could be more severe) because you don't get that flexibility in the SM as you don't have the reins which can give a bit of leeway for pressure, like in the RM.

But then you could say more horses would fight the RM because it's not full on pressure like the SM, but that's where I think the SM is more effective, as it's not a half hearted attempt of stopping the horse from putting it's head up.

SO many are in RMs now (mine inc.) that when *some* people see a SM they immediately think it's use is being abused....

will pm you!
 
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As someone said, they are aimed at stopping the head going up past a certain point rather than keeping it down at a certain point

[/ QUOTE ]It's probably no secret that I am dead set against them, and I'm not sure why this phrase is used so often to justify SMs. To explain, if a glass contains 50% water and 50% air, it doesn't change the nature of it if I describe it as half-full instead of half-empty. SMs tie the horse's head down, whether this is to control head-tossing or to somehow wrestle a horse into an outline, and in both cases, the aim is to keep the horse's head down - or if it somehow makes it more palatable, to stop it from going up. As I will bleat away until I run out of breath, I'd far rather see the causes dealt with than the symptoms.
 
I use one on my cob, generally he's a good lad, but if he does decide to be a prat he does so by flinging his head in the air, sometimes even small rear. I like the SM as it only comes into action when he does this, and if he's going along nicely he doesn't feel any pressure or restriction at all. I only use it at home though, and if out and about use RM, don't know why just do, probably because you don't see so many SM. I don't jump in it as worried in case it restricts him at all, know it shouldn't but thats just me!!
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They way you are talking the SM wouldn't be fitted correctly. It shouldn't 'hold the head down' if the head is being carried correctly, my boys only comes into action when he (occasionaly) throws his head.
 
Bloody brilliant bit of kit when used correctly. Would be my preference to use a standing over a running in most cases.
 
I agree with horsyscot to some degree, they should be fitted with extreme care ...just like any other peice of tack to be honest.

However I personally would try and resolve the problem through correct training if possible rather than using a peice of equitment to stop the problem, however in some cases this may not always be an option.

However if you do see someone having a rant at the side of a SJ ring because there is a horse being jumped in a SM and is obviously showing signs of discomfort...that will be me, sorry a horse need to move its head, neck and stretch its back when it is being asked to jump...shouldnt be jumping the horse if its dangeroulsy throwing its head about and not controlable....take it home, do some homework or find another disapline it enjoys doing!
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feel better now...
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I think I wasn't very clear, my bad. I understand that a correctly fitted SM should allow the horse to hold its head in a 'natural' or 'working' position (and no higher), but the trouble is, if the horse is throwing its head, or would normally work with it stuck up in the air, then the SM will be holding the head down from going into just such a position. If the horse already works in a good outline with its head in a natural or working position, then what would be the point of a SM? It would be tack for the sake of tack and would perform no function. In my incomplete and optimistic experience, I've yet to come across a circumstance where a SM could genuinely replace training and schooling (or in some sad cases veterinary attention, back specialists, dentists and/or physios).
 
You obviously haven't had much experience with young sharp horses then!
Schooling is obviously the key but in the interim it is nice to keep your teeth and nose in tact
 
[ QUOTE ]
I agree with horsyscot to some degree, they should be fitted with extreme care ...just like any other peice of tack to be honest.

However I personally would try and resolve the problem through correct training if possible rather than using a peice of equitment to stop the problem, however in some cases this may not always be an option.

However if you do see someone having a rant at the side of a SJ ring because there is a horse being jumped in a SM and is obviously showing signs of discomfort...that will be me, sorry a horse need to move its head, neck and stretch its back when it is being asked to jump...shouldnt be jumping the horse if its dangeroulsy throwing its head about and not controlable....take it home, do some homework or find another disapline it enjoys doing!
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feel better now...
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i do hope that wasnt aimed at me?
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If it wasnt i apologise.

Having worked at one of the best jumping yards in the country i can assure you that i know how to fit a SM correctly.
My horse is jumped in an elasticated one on its loosest attachment and that is enough.
As for the comment of taking it home to school it - feel free to try!
My horse in question i have owned from a 4 yr old and he has always been strong - maybe something to do with the fact also that im a slighty built 5"2 giant!!

Like all pieces of tack - if used correctly they do their job.
Its only when numpties feel the need to use SM, strong bits etc that the disasters happen.

ets - sorry if i appear to be sensitive - but after schooling my horse as best as i can to AVOID having to resort to a SM - i resent being told my horse needs to be taken home and schooled more.
 
chillidragon, believe it or not I agree with you in most of what you say. I must be one of the most 'anti horsey gadgets' people around and think half the folk out there stick things on their poor horses just because its fashionable or her next door has one! For the most of the time I ride in a cavesson bridle, snaffle bit with no martingale at all. But when he is a prat (and they all are from time to time!) putting the SM on for a few days stops his head throwing and as far as I'm concerns sorts out my wee problem. It then comes off and isn't used again for ages. I also use it when I get on him in the Spring after 3 months off, as thats when he is frisky the most and thats when the head throwing comes in. He is not a serial headthrower and just does it in high jinks and it works for me to keep it in check.
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You obviously haven't had much experience with young sharp horses then! Schooling is obviously the key but in the interim it is nice to keep your teeth and nose in tact

[/ QUOTE ] Really? I wonder then if the year I spent in North Carolina backing and bringing on babies was a figment of my imagination...
 
If it works for you then great. Every horse is different, and sometimes a piece of kit like this makes all the difference. Well done for qualifying.
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Well, whilst I'll never be delighted to see an SM on a horse if your circumstance is as you describe then it's a thousand times better than some of the scenarios I've witnessed and given a choice between infrequent use and permanent reliance, I'd go for the former every time
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...I understand that a correctly fitted SM should allow the horse to hold its head in a 'natural' or 'working' position (and no higher)...

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Then you misunderstand. A correctly used standing martingale allows the horse to raise it's head, come above the bit, or stretch it's neck. What it prevents is the horse raising it's head to the point that it cannot be influenced by the rider.
 
I don't ever aim any of my replies to anyone on the forum, why? because unless actually seeing something with your own eyes or talking face to face subjects and opinions can be mislead or blown out of proportion and some people take offence, so no that was not aimed at you, sometimes I don't even read all the replies (ok maybe I should) which is why I apologies if I've repeated what someone else may have suggested.

I only voice my personal opinion through my own experience, everybody has different ways of doing things, training their horses etc and yes everyone has different opinions which I also respect.

I don't get annoyed if people disagree with what I say because in there experience they also maybe correct too.

What does annoy me is when I see horses clearly in distress and discomfort when jumped in a standing martingale, that was my point, I've seen may top show jumpers use SM's where the horse seems cleary fine and jumps with ease, its how and when the equipment is used...and when used badly...thats when I have a rant at shows because unfortunately people are too quick to use gadgets, not meaning anyone in particular...just in general... which I'm sure youserlf and a lot of people will agree with.
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Sorry did not mean to cause any bad vibes there.
 
[ QUOTE ]
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...I understand that a correctly fitted SM should allow the horse to hold its head in a 'natural' or 'working' position (and no higher)...

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Then you misunderstand. A correctly used standing martingale allows the horse to raise it's head, come above the bit, or stretch it's neck. What it prevents is the horse raising it's head to the point that it cannot be influenced by the rider.

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If the horse has come above the bit, has it not already greatly diminished the rider's influence? Perhaps my education on SMs has gone astray somewhere along the line but my understanding was that it was to prevent just this type of behaviour; raising the head such that the horse comes above the bit, thereby reducing rider control, as you yourself suggest. (Not to nitpick, but for a horse to get its head into such a position that the rider cannot (in any way, shape or form) influence the horse would take something pretty extraordinary on the horse's part - as long as the rider has hands on reins that lead to the horse's head, they can influence it, however slightly.)
 
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I don't ever aim any of my replies to anyone on the forum, why? because unless actually seeing something with your own eyes or talking face to face subjects and opinions can be mislead or blown out of proportion and some people take offence, so no that was not aimed at you, sometimes I don't even read all the replies (ok maybe I should) which is why I apologies if I've repeated what someone else may have suggested.

I only voice my personal opinion through my own experience, everybody has different ways of doing things, training their horses etc and yes everyone has different opinions which I also respect.

I don't get annoyed if people disagree with what I say because in there experience they also maybe correct too.

What does annoy me is when I see horses clearly in distress and discomfort when jumped in a standing martingale, that was my point, I've seen may top show jumpers use SM's where the horse seems cleary fine and jumps with ease, its how and when the equipment is used...and when used badly...thats when I have a rant at shows because unfortunately people are too quick to use gadgets, not meaning anyone in particular...just in general... which I'm sure youserlf and a lot of people will agree with.
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Sorry did not mean to cause any bad vibes there.

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No harm done - just advertised one of my horses so feeling just a tad emotional!

And im with you on gadget kids - cant stand ponies dressed up in all the leather kit for fashion
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No worries hun, I'd be the same, its stressful stuff selling a horse I know, hope you find a nice home for him/her.
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That may be true - but hacking and hunting surely your horse wouldn't always be working perfectly over it's back, and using it's hindquarters. Mine can get terribly excited, but that does not mean she is badly schooled. Mine will never be a SJer who glides towards a jump - she gets excited and a bit silly, but is clever enough to find out that she would not flick her head up there was something restricting her (restricting her when her head is not just slightly above the contact, but really above the contact)
 
[ QUOTE ]
I agree with horsyscot to some degree, they should be fitted with extreme care ...just like any other peice of tack to be honest.

However I personally would try and resolve the problem through correct training if possible rather than using a peice of equitment to stop the problem, however in some cases this may not always be an option.

However if you do see someone having a rant at the side of a SJ ring because there is a horse being jumped in a SM and is obviously showing signs of discomfort...that will be me, sorry a horse need to move its head, neck and stretch its back when it is being asked to jump...shouldnt be jumping the horse if its dangeroulsy throwing its head about and not controlable....take it home, do some homework or find another disapline it enjoys doing!
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feel better now...
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Some horses naturally get excited and whizzy when it comes to SJ. it is not something you can train out of them. I go home and do my homework, and she comes round balanced and happy into a jump, but out at 'parties' she is a very different character. I am not talking permantly using a SM - it is just like I used my grackle, which I had on for a month or so, and she is now in a normal cavesson as she has learned she doesn't need to cross her jaw. Also schooling did obviously help.

'dangerously throwing' the head around is different to a bit of a silly flick, and a hopy. a Sm correctly fitted would not interfere with the horse if it's head stretched over a jump surely....

If you were aiming your comments at me, I do not think you should be so judgmental and critical of what my horse and I do, before you find out more. I have tried so hard to school the difficulties of her SJing, but you know what, after 3 yrs, it's not going to work. I've learnt to be happy with it, and she always was, so no problem there.
 
I've used one once and would use one again if I needed to.
I was schooling a pony who would try everything to not do work. We went through the rearing, bucking, spinning, leaping, planting her self stages so she then started throwing her head up so high that I could see her nostrils and p*ssing off. We did the bit changing first, changing from a single joint to a double, which helped stopping her p*ssing off but not with the head tossing so a SM was put on. If she worked with a normal head carriage the SM did nothing, only if tried to toss her head right up would it come into work.

I like the fact they attach to the nosband so there is not pulling of the mouth.
 
I use a Standing Martingale and will continue to use one. If anyone came up to me at the side of the ring and started ranting at me about it, after I had got over the shock of their rudeness and ignorance I would invite them to ride her without one - and good luck to them.

She isn't going to be reschooled, she was injured last year which involved 6 weeks of walk. I tried without a SM, but it didn't work, I struggled on for several months, stuck the SM back on and wished I had done it sooner.

Do you think she looks unhappy and restricted in her's?
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We have to do a lot of our schooling out hacking (no school, and if she's not thinking about work, she's looking for horse-eating leaves in the hedges) so ironically hacking is when I tend to ask her to work hardest, but she's totally unsuitable for hunting or for any real amount of jumping, mentally (100%) and physically (80%) and it's unfair of me to speculate how she'd behave. I totally agree that excitement does not index poor (or lack of) schooling. Brandy is a top offender for getting excited and running round with her head stuck in the air like a giraffe, and it takes work to get her to relax her jaw and start lifting. The thing is, I guess my doubts all spring from this: if the horse is trying to evade and the rider shuts off one option (head-tossing/lifting - throw on a SM) the horse will just find another (crossing the jaw - whack on a flash) and another (setting its neck - put on some draw reins) and another (bucking - give it a crack) until it gets totally out of hand.

On a far more general note, the worst case I've come across with a SM was in NC, where a horse was sent to our ranch because its owner felt that it had 'head-in-the-air' issues and so tied it's head down. The horse then began bucking, so he tied it down more, etc. until it finally landed with us as a confirmed bolter. With or without a SM, that thing would pin its nose to its chest and charge around like a lunatic with its eyes popping out of its head and there really wasn't much you could do to stop it since you virtually had the snaffle rings in your hands. That scared me a hell of a lot more than any head-tossing/giraffing and I would far, far, far rather ride a horse's head down than try to ride it back up off its chest.
 
I totally understand what you are saying in that once you start where will it stop.

It is really difficult to justify using a SM as lots of people are against it. I can understand why people don't like it - examples like you gave just turn people against them, understandably, as that is a serious abuse of a SM.
I would not use one for schooling though - but jumping, I'm afraid I'm going to test it. Because I do not know how to fit one correctly (well, I have never used one before) I will research it and have my RI/YO to instruct me on how to do so. I just think they have their uses, like DD has shown.

This in my view is a correctly fitted one - the horse is perfectly able to stretch the neck thus jump properly with room to spare from the SM.

Hunterhorse.jpg
 
Personally, I dont like them very much. However, I have not had a reason to use one and would explore other alternatives first.

I think the problem is I very rarely see them fitted correctly, and as a result associate them with ponies, with their chin strapped to their chest, as the child on board has no brakes.

The pictures above show that, correctly fitted, they are useful and not restrictive.
 
I suppose the main thing is to keep a very sharp eye that if you ever find yourself thinking 'just a bit tighter?' to take it straight off, and with luck there'll actually come a day when you suddenly find that it's no longer got a job to perform any more. Anywho, I hope your jumping goes fab
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