Stargazer!

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Germolene

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Hey...I've owned my mare for 5 months now and her schooling is coming on great (she's hardly done anything before). She's only 5. However, she is a rear stargazer....it's just not pretty at all and really annoying when riding her...she is just starting to drop and relax and there are little moments of her being in an outline. She's had the Physio and she says her back is fine, so it's not from pain. I tend to do quite a lot if sitting trot on her because she seems to relax more and I can sit deeper and keep legs on, this is when I have glimpses of her being on the bit...however it's as though a couple of seconds pass and then she realises and throws her head up and we're back to that awful ewe neck look! Although her head seems to be lower in rising trot, she doesn't seem to want to go on the bit at all. I suppose we are getting somewhere because before this there was no signs, so I suppose she's building the right muscles up and she'll be finding it hard. I do a lot of circles with her, which helps soften her neck but is there anything else I can do which will help her? I don't really want to be using any gadgets...although occasionally I will lunge using very loose side reins and she will look absolutely fabulous, a lovely outline. But when ridden she's tensing up it seems...
Even if I just ask her to stand and ask for contact, she just throws her head up.
Any advice would be great...thanks
 
Yes I've had a few lessons on her but we've been working on keeping her straight and getting her balanced....we've not got to her head yet lol.
However I don't tend to have regular lessons, but I have a few friends who often watch and give advice and even ride her...but she's the same with 'more experienced' people...she is my 3rd horse so I'm not a complete novice :)
 
Regular lessons will get you on the right track and give you the exercises and advice that you can then put into practice on your own.
 
Perhaps your instructor can see what we can't and that is why he/she is not concentrating on the mare's head? Does your instructor ever have a sit on her?
 
If your instructor is still working on getting her balanced, maybe she is not quite ready to be working on the bit yet. If she has only really been ridden properly for the last five months, she is probably still fairly green. It might be worth forgetting about her head for a little while, and working on getting her to work through properly from behind. When she is moving in a better way- straight and balanced with a lot of impulsion from behind, it will be much easier to get her head down. If she is not working properly, there is not much point in forcing her head into an "outline".

If she can do it physically on the lunge, then she will be able to do it under saddle eventually.

Have you tried lunging her with a rider?
 
Thanks Penumbra, appreciate your response. Yes I think you're right, she had hardly done anything and now she's being asked quite a bit....I am just worried that if I let her carry on she will keep building up the muscles under her neck and then it'll be harder to correct later on, if you know what I mean. I think the fact that she has started to show glimpses of softening indicates that she is building some topline now and is able to hold that position for a couple of strides...I suppose it'll only increase in time.
 
If she's better longeing then make sure you get a good balance in her schedule between work from the ground and riding. You can effect a lot of change in a horse's way of going through long reining, in hand pole work etc. This is all along the lines of physio and 'gym work' but I think people dismiss it now because it's Fluffy Bunny Stuff and/or boring. But if you can make some changes over then winter, when riding is trickier anyway, you'll be off and running by spring.
 
As Penumbra says, I wouldn't worry about her "being on the bit" just yet. Go back to rising trot, you say she lowers her neck more in this, which is exactly what you really want. What you want is effectively her 'back up', to achieve this we need her pushing forwards from behind (think power, not speed) and when her neck lowers ( think down and from the wither not just head) then the back comes up making her stronger.

Sometimes sitting too soon on a green horse gives the opposite, they brace and tense the back to support the rider, she is maybe not strong enough in her back muscles yet for this. Go rising, and if she offers a stretch fwds reward her with a scratch in the wither and give the rein fwds.

And as TS says, use lunging to help her build her strength and balance, use raised poles and def lunge in side reins, it gives the horse a contact to seek. But with a young horse I don't just stick to small circles, walk with the horse so you are using the whole school.

Good luck
 
I only wanted to add that sitting trot makes it harder for a horse to engage its hind end if that horse is weak in the back. I would be using a light seat to encourage your horse to use it's back end and the head carriage being lowered will naturally happen.
 
She's lovely, lots or circles and transitions (as you sound to be doing) will help a lot. Go rising, think forwards and swingy, long strides and not rushing. She'll get there. Would say, to me those side reins aren't loose though, I'd want them longer and encouraging her neck out and back up, at the moment with those on she looks tense and like she's dropping the contact.
 
Thank you Oscar....
I do think her back is weak, my new custom made saddle will be arriving in the next 2 weeks so I'm hoping that this will be more comfier for her too. When I bought her she was in very poor condition, skin and bones so I think she has already made great progress. I am guilty of being a tad impatient generally in life...so I know she'll soon get there, I was just wanting to hear some advice etc from 'outsiders' and without sounding funny, people saying get an instructor isn't really why I posted on here. I can speak to my instructor any time, but it's always good to get opinions/advice from a wider audience...
:)
 
Ok I will loosen the side reins next time...
I have been doing sitting trot a lot because for some reason she seems to relax more and I can sort out my balance and her balance better in this position, as well as keeping legs on more..and I thought well if she's starting to drop in sitting trot then she should start in rising eventually. ?!? I have been a bit bewildered because most horses prefer rising trot as it free's up there back, but as soon as I do rising with mine she goes really tense and really short choppy strides, which is awful. I have been making sure that I'm not coming down too much on her back and really concentrating on my position etc, but I feel whatever I try, it doesn't help, so then I go into sitting again and she relaxes....lol. As I said earlier, a couple of more experienced riders have been on her and she's exactly the same, if not worse tbh...maybe because they are heavier than me, I don't know. She is almost 16 hands and I'm only 8 stone.x
 
Germolene said:
Thank you Oscar....
I do think her back is weak, my new custom made saddle will be arriving in the next 2 weeks so I'm hoping that this will be more comfier for her too. When I bought her she was in very poor condition, skin and bones so I think she has already made great progress. I am guilty of being a tad impatient generally in life...so I know she'll soon get there, I was just wanting to hear some advice etc from 'outsiders' and without sounding funny, people saying get an instructor isn't really why I posted on here. I can speak to my instructor any time, but it's always good to get opinions/advice from a wider audience...
:)
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You didn't mention that you had an instructor in your first post or that you were having lessons which is why I suggested it.

And yes from the pics I think you are being a little impatient, it might be good to have some lunge lessons together so that you can work on things like your balance. Seems a sweet little horse and with time and patient hopefully will be a lil star for you
 
A star gazer is a hollow horse - sitting trot is the worst thing you can do on a hollow horse.

Ride her forward using your legs and if she ignores your leg a tap with your schooling whip.

Work on heaps of circles, loops and serpentines, changing the subject constantly - never go around the arena more than once without doing something different.

Millions of transitions within and between paces will help to get her head down and engage her rear!

If sh is moving too quickly, slow your rising as this will force her to slow her pace - this means you can maintain a light contact and not have to pull to slow her.
 
Germolene said:
Ok I will loosen the side reins next time...
I have been doing sitting trot a lot because for some reason she seems to relax more and I can sort out my balance and her balance better in this position, as well as keeping legs on more..and I thought well if she's starting to drop in sitting trot then she should start in rising eventually. ?!? I have been a bit bewildered because most horses prefer rising trot as it free's up there back, but as soon as I do rising with mine she goes really tense and really short choppy strides, which is awful. I have been making sure that I'm not coming down too much on her back and really concentrating on my position etc, but I feel whatever I try, it doesn't help, so then I go into sitting again and she relaxes....lol. As I said earlier, a couple of more experienced riders have been on her and she's exactly the same, if not worse tbh...maybe because they are heavier than me, I don't know. She is almost 16 hands and I'm only 8 stone.x
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I think you have hit the nail on the head here - a combination of you losing balance in rising trot and perhaps a not so good saddle fit will be why she seems happier in sitting trot rather than rising trot. It is not the way to go though on a weak horse. You need to concerntrate on your balance - maybe via pilates - to improve core strength - instruction also? A well fitting saddle will not move as you rise in trot and as you have a new one ordered and coming this will helpfully help both you and her :)
 
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Another tip, if it were me I'd have your side reins much lower, sort of where the bottom of your numnah is, not very bhs but I do find it helps the giraffe types to stretch fwd & down. I have a 4yo who 'was' a stargazer and this has helped heaps!
 
Yes I can't wait for the new saddle to arrive...I struggled to find this one but it was only ever to put me on until next year, but it seems I've had to get it sooner. It should be ready in a couple of weeks, so until then I think I will just lunge her (using roller) and then I can concentrate on ridden with new saddle. I've opted for a VSD which will accommodate her shoulders much better. She's AngloArab so has quite large shoulders.

I will try the side reins lower Oscar. I suppose it's been a good sign that after a schooling session she has been stretching down, long and low when cooling off...which she never used to do.

Thanks :)
 
Try having regular lessons, a pair of eyes on the ground helps a lot! I had the same problem with a horse of mine, I brought her to a halt and did lots of flexion with her, left, straight neck, right and so on. She started to chew the bit and did drop her head, when she had the outline I asked her into walk where she lost it very slightly but I carried on with the flexion and she dropped her head again. Keep doing this in all paces and always reward when she gets the outline!! You will probably know this anyway, but flexion is just turning the horses head to one side so that you can see the corner of their eye. More is not needed.
 
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